The Point of Hate

[DreizehnOfSiren]

OK! I've been wanting to figure out exactly what "+1 Enmity" actually does. I'd like to keep this thread based on theory and facts, as to prove how it is, and how to maximize how effective each person is with hate. I'd also like to see if anyone is willing to do some testing for me, since i have finals coming up and i can't find the proper people to test this. I'll do the number crunching. Also, if anyone can refute this testing.. please say so before we waste a lot of time ^^

Assumptions:

1. Enmity is a scalar value.

Why: It says "+1" and not "+1%." I'd think there is some sort of multiplier for it, for example +1 enmity = +10 points of hate.

2. 'Points of Hate' (PoH) decrease over time.
2a. Hate generated from the same abilities decays at the same rate.

Why: This means that if you have Enmity +40 or Enmity +0, it will lose a set amount of points of hate per tick, however one will reach 0 sooner due to the fact that one started higher.

3. Moon Phase, direction of facing, who controls the area (unless it has a piece effected by that), etc do not affect hate.

Why: It seems highly unlikely that these would affect enmity in any way, as it just adds more calculations to the server, causing more lag.

4. Missing (not counting Utsusemi, Blink, etc) doesn't decrease PoH.

5. Not being the main target doesn't affect your PoH loss over time.

6. JAs create a set amount of hate. (Only effected by Enmity.)

7. PoH decreases per tick.

8. One 'tick' is equal to one 'Vana'deil Minute'

Goals of this thread:

1. Prove that there is a Enmity cap, and if so, how high, and how long it takes to reach this cap. If we know this, we know when to switch over to more effective gears like haste, shield skill, or other gear instead of enmity.
2. Find out how much more effective JAs are than spells, and how much 'points of hate' are created by using each one.
3. Figure out how much enmity Sentinel gives to PLDs with the update.


Testing:
As I have only 2 enmity merits (I know.. i suck), it makes it very difficult to find someone of the same race and same enmity merits to make this work right. We do not know if enmity merits are the same as enmity on equipment, thus I can't really do it, so i need someone's help.


The first test i'd like to see is the 'Provoke test.' Basically, three people, 2 of same race, same level, both 75 PLD/WAR go to West Ronfaure or some other lv 0 mobs where they will miss you. If they do succeed in hitting you, your test will become invalid. You will also need to stay the same distance apart from each other. Basically, one tank is the 'enmity tank'(ET), the other is the 'timer tank' (TT). The 3rd person (not one of the two testers) starts the fight my somehow attacking a mob with minimal hate possible (this is to get rid of 'initial hate' that people get when first claiming a mob). ET starts out by putting on 1 enmity and provokes this mob, and the TT provokes that mob after exactly 5 ticks. If the TT takes hate, the ET puts on one more Enmity, and you restart the test. You do this until you have figured out how much enmity you can put on until the ET can't pull hate from one provoke after 5 ticks. Continue this until you run out of enmity (hopefully around 50ish) for 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, and 30 ticks.



If i can get these numbers, i can figure out what the 'PoH decay' for Provoke is. We can also figure out if the decay is expontinal or linear, which will help us out a lot.


My theory: PoHd (Points of Hate decay) is linear for provoke. If this is true, it will prove that enmity is a "+x hate" and not "+x% hate."

The next test would pretty much be the same, but use flash instead of provoke. If these results also come back linear, it re-confirms the "+x hate" as well shows the PoHd for Flash, and we can see if they are different from Provoke or not.

[Ravenlokk]

My theory is that Enmity is really good if you want to hold hate, and -Enmity is really good if you want to lose hate faster >.>. The general assumption i made was that +/-enmity works like a floodgate, the higher your enmity the smaller the opening and the water is your "pool of hate"(or PoH). . . Getting hit removes a linear amount of hate but the slope of the 'PoH graph' would be determined by your level of +/- Enmity (Basicly if you have high enmity you lose less hate per hit, and inversely if you have tons of -enmity you lose a lot more hate getting hit). As the OP mentioned the linear PoH reduction over time is likely affected by Enmity the same way as taking damage/having abilities done to you.

I don't have any evidence to back it up, or any other peoples research to reference. Just how i understood it to be

[DreizehnOfSiren]

My theory is that Enmity is really good if you want to hold hate, and -Enmity is really good if you want to lose hate faster >.>. The general assumption i made was that +/-enmity works like a floodgate, the higher your enmity the smaller the opening and the water is your "pool of hate"(or PoH). . . Getting hit removes a linear amount of hate but the slope of the 'PoH graph' would be determined by your level of +/- Enmity (Basicly if you have high enmity you lose less hate per hit, and inversely if you have tons of -enmity you lose a lot more hate getting hit). As the OP mentioned the linear PoH reduction over time is likely affected by Enmity the same way as taking damage/having abilities done to you.

I don't have any evidence to back it up, or any other peoples research to reference. Just how i understood it to be

Well, the problem with this is that i've experianced that not to be true. A prime example of this would be in dynamis, where another PLD decides to voke a mob (with like 25 enmity), then i go and voke it w/ 35 enmity, and i pull hate, before anyone gets hit.

Edited: switched nin to pld to remove some 'unknown variables.'

[divisortheory]

I just alawys accepted it at is if you have Enmity+N, and someone else has Enmity+0, then when someones else vokes they'll get a certain amount of hate, and if you voke you'll get N% more hate than the other guy.

Most other +N items in the game seem to work that way.

[mikazuki]

you could say the most possible hate is 256/256, and that provoke for example gives 10 hate points, having enm+40 would give 50 hate from provoke. each person you hit with mazurka would be +20 hate, and invincible might double your current hate (or just add to it).
taking damage would remove dmg/10 hate, so you would have to take 2560 damage to go to zero (aggro would be set on a different marker of course).
dealing damage would add dmg/10 hate.
healing hp would add hp/10 hate (adjusted for cureV though).

some of that could be level adjusted, fairly simple to test with a lv5 and lv50~ war.

enmity-4 would then mean if you were hit for 40dmg, you lost 8 hate points.

those guidelines seem to fit a lot of situations. the rate of hate loss should be something like 1/tick so 30s after provoking your hate from it would have dissipated. i don't think enmity+- changes base dissipation rate.

[DreizehnOfSiren]

you could say the most possible hate is 256/256, and that provoke for example gives 10 hate points, having enm+40 would give 50 hate from provoke. each person you hit with mazurka would be +20 hate, and invincible might double your current hate (or just add to it).
taking damage would remove dmg/10 hate, so you would have to take 2560 damage to go to zero (aggro would be set on a different marker of course).
dealing damage would add dmg/10 hate.
healing hp would add hp/10 hate (adjusted for cureV though).

some of that could be level adjusted, fairly simple to test with a lv5 and lv50~ war.

enmity-4 would then mean if you were hit for 40dmg, you lost 8 hate points.

those guidelines seem to fit a lot of situations. the rate of hate loss should be something like 1/tick so 30s after provoking your hate from it would have dissipated. i don't think enmity+- changes base dissipation rate.

The problem is, we don't know for sure ^^ that's what i want to figure out.

[Priran]

Does it matter that much? Wear as much Enmity as you need to not lose too much hate to your BLMs, and load your WHMs up on -Enmity.

Sometimes enmity is just enmity, ja?

[DreizehnOfSiren]

Well, if you sacrifice haste for enmity, then that enmity is going to waste, where it could be more useful. If you keep bouncing off of the hate roof, why would you want more enmity when something else might be more useful?

[Priran]

Well, if you sacrifice haste for enmity, then that enmity is going to waste, where it could be more useful. If you keep bouncing off of the hate roof, why would you want more enmity when something else might be more useful?

That would be why I said "wear enough". Test these things for yourself. Wear a Cap. Staff instead of Macuahuitls for a fight. If you lost hate a lot, go back to the swords.

[Taj]

3. Moon Phase, direction of facing, who controls the area (unless it has a piece effected by that), etc do not affect hate.

Why: It seems highly unlikely that these would affect enmity in any way, as it just adds more calculations to the server, causing more lag.

This is the worst reason I have ever seen for ruling out a variable in a calculation. Especially with a dev team like Square-Enix's. You can't even say "Lag" in the amount of time it would take to factor in everything mentioned above.

[DreizehnOfSiren]

Lol, do you really think which way you face would affect hate? Or would you want to find someone who'd want to test hate all facing the same way at the same moonphase?

[Grey Jorildyn]

Lol, do you really think which way you face would affect hate? Or would you want to find someone who'd want to test hate all facing the same way at the same moonphase?

not saying i support that (crazy) theory, but until proven wrong, it's a possible extraneous variable, just as is anything else you can conjure up pretty much.

i don't think hate is linear either. hate is divided among all targets that have any kind of hate whatsoever, and in any fight you're in a constant struggle (be it easy or difficult) to maintain a higher percentage of the mob's enmity as compared to the rest of your party or alliance. assuming that provoke enmity is any different from flash, that is to say, if you infer one decays linearly and one exponentially, is a fairly bad approach imo. enmity is enmity. it comes, and it's constantly going away, whether it be linearly or exponentially, but imo, it happens the same way regardless of the source.

another thing, you can't really calculate "how long" it will take to reach a hate cap because of enmity being a pool shared by all players. it is very much dependent on what everyone else in your party/alliance is doing and also how aggressive your tank/co-tank/ or tanking style is. you can make up scenarios where in x tank, x blms, x melee, x healers, all performing actions at a, b, and c rate are gaining hate. regardless of how much you're actually losing, if blms are stunning constantly, tanks flashing/voking constantly, melee constantly dealing dmg, etc etc, then you can make guesses at "how many flashes will take hate" or some such as that, but you can't just say "oh here's my tiamat alliance with (insert jobs here). i'll get poor/good/strong hate in 2 minutes" because you're not constructing a tangible enmity pool for that encounter.

[DreizehnOfSiren]

/sigh, i'll never get to test this out. It just seems important to me like damage formulas are for DDs. Just trying to be the best i can be at my job.

[Grey Jorildyn]

if you're a good tank you will feel the enmity flowing through you like the force. it changes every encounter and you must learn control.

[Zalius]

after much testing i have made a graph to assist you


http://i16.tinypic.com/2a6nqbm.jpg

[Priran]

after much testing i have made a graph to assist you

I feel your graphs are inaccurately labeled.

http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/26c5b2954e.jpg

[Ayn]

..I thought +1 enmity just meant your actions produced 1% more hate/enmity than they would normally.

[Zalius]

after much testing i have made a graph to assist you

I feel your graphs are inaccurately labeled.

http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/26c5b2954e.jpg

yeah but now you only have one graph amirite

[Priran]

after much testing i have made a graph to assist you

I feel your graphs are inaccurately labeled.

http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/26c5b2954e.jpg

yeah but now you only have one graph amirite

but my graph has a white box

[cassiraa]

I disagree that +enmity is a "+x hate" and not "+x% hate" based on my experiences both as BLM and as PLD. I've always noticed, non-empirically, that -enmity helped on big nukes [where as i it was +x hate, it would be more pointed on lower nukes, than big ones].

Likewise, This would make Joyuse better than every PLD weapon in the game for tanking, due to getting +30 on your enmity scale every hit compared to +4 on all actions.


I do think that enmity and damage is based on the mob's HP.

You can Voke, Flash, Sentinel, and Invincible on a rabbit, And someone can hit it once for 3/4 of its life and it will turn to the person who hit it. not from enmity capping against a 30 damage hit, But because 30 damage/50hp on that mob is a significant portion Against That mob.

btw: I'm on Unicorn and can help you out with any tests, or set up a few and I'll run them with my friends. Also, do you know if anybody has made a Defensive Parser [a parser that parses shadows taken, shield blocks implemented, etc.


Also: Unless I'm mistaken Player Evasion is floored at 20%, so on rabbits, you'll want a RDM to hit Gravity and walk away, because otherwise it will probably hit at least often enough to skew results.


edit:

if you're a good tank you will feel the enmity flowing through you like the force. it changes every encounter and you must learn control.

That's a really good statement, certainly it is something you have to adapt and overall understand. But actually putting a number and formula to it will give us an exact course. If we didn't have damage formulas for Melee, you may be TPing in STR gear and DEX rings.