Battle System Adjustments (03/05/2007)

[Alastaire]

If you want to be a prick about it and debate how wearing some PLD type armor with some higher DEF on it will suddenly make DRK take little damage, you obviously have no idea how little DEF actually matters when it comes to damage taken. And like someone previously stated, no sub other than NIN would even begin to make DRK a viable tank. There is simply no larger damage mitigation than shadows.

No I'm just trying to open up a line of discussion because it's Monday and work is boring.

Sure we could work out all of the obvious benefits from any sub ( which was also a a factor if you missed that Hello my first post ), in addition to gear options but we'll just leave it where it is since the only bites on this are going to be soggy boots and tires.

MY BAD.

Trying new things is one thing, but what you're suggesting, at its core, is DEF tanking, which isn't new at all, it's old, outdated, and shitty. Shadows or GTFO

[safer]

oh my bad on the bio3... but the banish3 point still stands... they took that spell away from PLD mobs that used to cast it (i think they even mentioned pld mobs will no longer have access to this spell in the update notes)

also i dont really see drk using those spikes apart from solo play depending on mp cost and casting time.. i doubt a drk will be able to put up spikes fast enough when they realize they just pulled hate -- and might be too mp costly to keep it up whenever the recast is down... maybe they can set it up before they WS or something idk......

[BRP]

just add an aoe dispel move that triggers when it takes more than 10% hp dmg in a small time frame or something.

Oh that's pretty good, but adding that to every NM like Bahamut would be pretty redundant. Something like damage dropping if you stress(overuse) soul eater in a short time, something like a cap.

Oh, how I wish they made DEF matter. That's the only fix PLD needs.

[cdgreg]

Actually, they never retroactively give mobs spells. Once a mob is set, it is set and doesn't get new abilties/spell. This would change the difficulty of monsters for players doing the same content at different times.

In reference to retroactive recieving new spells and mobs have bio III/dia III before the previous update: Puddings used to have bio III, once the update hit and the spell was meritable by rdms and not blms SE took it from the puddings and replaced it with bio II. Obviously this isnt retroactively "giving" a mob a spell, but it is a case of a mob being changed.

[MF Perm]

If you want to be a prick about it and debate how wearing some PLD type armor with some higher DEF on it will suddenly make DRK take little damage, you obviously have no idea how little DEF actually matters when it comes to damage taken. And like someone previously stated, no sub other than NIN would even begin to make DRK a viable tank. There is simply no larger damage mitigation than shadows.

No I'm just trying to open up a line of discussion because it's Monday and work is boring.

Sure we could work out all of the obvious benefits from any sub ( which was also a a factor if you missed that Hello my first post ), in addition to gear options but we'll just leave it where it is since the only bites on this are going to be soggy boots and tires.

MY BAD.

Trying new things is one thing, but what you're suggesting, at its core, is DEF tanking, which isn't new at all, it's old, outdated, and shitty. Shadows or GTFO

No I was suggesting DrainTanking but with 3 minute recast timers on each that pretty much shoots down that whole theory. But I still think with a WHM or PLD sub, or even RDM, and what is available to them all around ti would be interesting to see.

[Alastaire]

No I was suggesting DrainTanking but with 3 minute recast timers on each that pretty much shoots down that whole theory. But I still think with a WHM or PLD sub, or even RDM, and what is available to them all around ti would be interesting to see.

I get what you're saying, but the bottom line is that you will still take a ridiculous amount of damage from direct hits, probably too much to be covered by draining it back, it just doesn't seem practical.

[Rag]

No I was suggesting DrainTanking but with 3 minute recast timers on each that pretty much shoots down that whole theory. But I still think with a WHM or PLD sub, or even RDM, and what is available to them all around ti would be interesting to see.

I get what you're saying, but the bottom line is that you will still take a ridiculous amount of damage from direct hits, probably too much to be covered by draining it back, it just doesn't seem practical.

It would work in exp or solo but not vs hnms or hard stuff unless the spikes are realy week drainII and spike recast can reach 1.30 with enough homam/haste/march
And we all know drks have no problems with pulling hate

[Vail]

Oh, how I wish they made DEF matter. That's the only fix PLD needs.

would fix: PLD blood tanking, most solo aspects, melee Damage dealers getting thier assholes eaten like a bowl of tuna salad

however, melees have to balance stats like: accuracy, attack, dmg, delay, str, dex to effectly damage monsters.

Why should a tank only have to pile up 1 stat? if you look at RDM (in tanking equip or ballista) we use a combination of 3 things: defense, -% damage and -x damage (phalanx)

If SE would make defense have just abit more impact on damage taken, then introduce some gear with more -% and even throw in some gear with -x damage. Then people could work something on accually taking less damage (and help melees solo better)

[BRP]

would fix: PLD blood tanking, most solo aspects, melee Damage dealers getting thier assholes eaten like a bowl of tuna salad

however, melees have to balance stats like: accuracy, attack, dmg, delay, str, dex to effectly damage monsters.

Sounds perfect to me.

[divisortheory]

If SE would make defense have just abit more impact on damage taken, then introduce some gear with more -% and even throw in some gear with -x damage. Then people could work something on accually taking less damage (and help melees solo better)

If they make DEF matter more, most mobs in the game will instantly get really hard.

[BRP]

If SE would make defense have just abit more impact on damage taken, then introduce some gear with more -% and even throw in some gear with -x damage. Then people could work something on accually taking less damage (and help melees solo better)

If they make DEF matter more, most mobs in the game will instantly get really hard.

Hmm, well, change only the monster attacking player formula/method, not the other way around.

[MF Perm]

No I was suggesting DrainTanking but with 3 minute recast timers on each that pretty much shoots down that whole theory. But I still think with a WHM or PLD sub, or even RDM, and what is available to them all around ti would be interesting to see.

I get what you're saying, but the bottom line is that you will still take a ridiculous amount of damage from direct hits, probably too much to be covered by draining it back, it just doesn't seem practical.

Yeah I understand the impracticality of it, and the deficit in value compared to just having a DRK DD; I just like to see unconventional trials and see what happens.

3-4 years ago if someone said NIN/DRK on these boards people would have burned a cross on their front yard.

[Priran]

- Drain II (Lv.62 Recast Time: 3 minutes Duration: 1 minute)
Steals an enemy's HP, potentially increasing maximum HP. Ineffective against undead.

I just finished leveling /DRK, kept remembering this one Alla thread arguing that DRK could Drain better than BLM, wondering why DRK didn't have Drain II. True story.

[Rag]

If SE would make defense have just abit more impact on damage taken, then introduce some gear with more -% and even throw in some gear with -x damage. Then people could work something on accually taking less damage (and help melees solo better)

If they make DEF matter more, most mobs in the game will instantly get really hard.

Damage taken-% for plds way to go
melee taken way less damage(fixin def) would make healers almost useless

[izembo]

just add an aoe dispel move that triggers when it takes more than 10% hp dmg in a small time frame or something.

Oh that's pretty good, but adding that to every NM like Bahamut would be pretty redundant. Something like damage dropping if you stress(overuse) soul eater in a short time, something like a cap.

there arent many nms that would need it but they could always mix it up a little. make one of them do a 20sec terror move aoe if it loses too much, some massive aoe dmg on another, etc. make it so that on some it dispels, some you dont want to cause if you damage it to fast it does some massive move and kills them all.

[Kyreth]

with Drain 2 and Dread Spikes, I wonder if DRK/WHM or DRK/PLD could be a viable tank.

I doubt they'll be that potent. As well they still take a good chunk of damage, and no using LR/SE, either. But I do believe DRK will now be a competent solo job for EP-DC mobs.

drk/nin always was a competent solo job for EP-DC <_< drk has sleep2

And with Signet up, can now park on their ass and heal up without losing TP.

This does change things considerably in Signet areas- you can actually take a knee with the entire PT and not wipe your TP doing so- a few HP here, a few MP there.

Start telling the meleers to pack +HHP gear?

Plus, Drain II has a chance of boosting maximum HP...which is definitely something new. Might even give you a bit more boost when you're burning HP for ATK.

Interesting tidbits. Very interesting.

[Ashira]

Looks like the new jobs will continue to remain unfinished though...

I'm actually not so sure about that. I can understand why it's been taking them so long to release AF2 for the new jobs. They clearly want the AF2 to be obtained from a non-dynamis area, which while understandable from a design standpoint, is something that should have just been ignored IMO and just release the crap in dynamis anyway.

But Nyzul Isle seems like a very expansive area. It's quite possible the new AF2 drops are already in Nyzul Isle. What I'd really like to see is the BLU, PUP, and COR AF2 dropping from random mobs inside Salvage.

Or hell, maybe in a future update they'll just release ToAU Dynamis.

I don't think a ToAU Dynamis is an answer. I remember our shell discussing this when the new jobs first came out; and frankly, and we're a smaller shell too, it just wouldn't be worth it. ESP if it was only AF for those three jobs. What are they going to do, add capes for the jobs they previously gave belts and versa? Add AF rings?

But I dont' think regular shells would want to deal with yet *another* Dynamis area to add to the rotation, especially when they still need pieces from the original areas for the original jobs. Though if it were done well and appealing enough, it could help alleviate some of the scheduling issues we run into. I know shells that don't even go into CoP Dynamis at all.

I dunno, I see both sides here, but I think it'd just be easier to put the drops in existing Dynamis and maybe add a few mobs with the jobs in there for a change of pace.

[BRP]

Still surprised no one is mentioning how much magical damage a DRK could do with Drain I and Drain II(which apparently will heal a LOT of HP).

[Ixidor]

just add an aoe dispel move that triggers when it takes more than 10% hp dmg in a small time frame or something.

Oh that's pretty good, but adding that to every NM like Bahamut would be pretty redundant. Something like damage dropping if you stress(overuse) soul eater in a short time, something like a cap.

there arent many nms that would need it but they could always mix it up a little. make one of them do a 20sec terror move aoe if it loses too much, some massive aoe dmg on another, etc. make it so that on some it dispels, some you dont want to cause if you damage it to fast it does some massive move and kills them all.

Horrid Roar? its not AoE, but if your Kraken DRK zerging or even one DRK , this does remove all buffs and hate reset. All it needs to do is spam it like jormy.

[MF Perm]

Still surprised no one is mentioning how much magical damage a DRK could do with Drain I and Drain II(which apparently will heal a LOT of HP).

If the average of Dr2 is 600+, DRK will be AMAZING.