DEF Diminishing Returns Curve

[Kaeko]

A friend and I were discussing this the other day and I was hoping someone in here could help us out.

I think the consensus amoung most tanks is that after a certain point, VIT and DEF will undergo massive diminshing returns as far as effectiveness (hence why you can have 999 defense yet still get pounded etc). My question is does anyone have a type of curve to show just when and how the diminishing returns in?

The main reason I was asking was we've been doing salvage LBC fights using the BLM kiting strategy, so the BLM usually take some hits. We got a tip to start having the BLM use tacos in increase their defense.

My BLM base defense in standing gear = 258 DEF
Standing Gear with Protect 4 (50DEF right?) = 308 DEF
With Protect 4 and a Taco = 385 DEF

That comes to about a 77 DEF increase from the taco after buffs. Would this actually make an significant impact as far as damage down? I figured the diminishing returns wouldn't kick in at DEF values so low.

I guess making an actual curve is a bit difficult; but can anyone share any experiences with increasing DEF? About when does it become pointless and would it help for the particular case I stated above?

Thanks

[Shadida]

Considering LBC has some obscenely high attack stats, I don't believe using him as a test case would yield any meaningful results. I mean, he crits me for like 700 on my RNG - I don't think it would help if I had 50 extra DEF.

[divisortheory]

Considering LBC has some obscenely high attack stats, I don't believe using him as a test case would yield any meaningful results. I mean, he crits me for like 700 on my RNG - I don't think it would help if I had 50 extra DEF.

Actually he has VERY LOW attack. What's high is his base D.

[Shadida]

Considering LBC has some obscenely high attack stats, I don't believe using him as a test case would yield any meaningful results. I mean, he crits me for like 700 on my RNG - I don't think it would help if I had 50 extra DEF.

Actually he has VERY LOW attack. What's high is his base D.

K maybe it's just me with the obscenely low defense stats lol

[Lhexh]

LBC hits me for 130-170 range if I have all my gear unlocked as BLM/RDM, with 413 defence (PIV+Tacos+defence gear/-damage setup) and -26% day, -32%Night, and Phalanx on. Of course, crits still push out large damage in this setup, well over 300 a hit but the normal damage is pretty consistent.

The few times I reached LBC without full gear unlocked I would use the same setup but with only 350-370 defence range and I would take 170-210 range. We usually got screwed on Hand and/or Feet cells so I was only missing base defence and not -damage gear.

I'm not 100% sure at what point defence caps out but I would guess somewhere in the 400s is pretty close to it since from what I read most NIN and PLDs that blood tank it aren't taking that much less damage than what my BLM is.

Edit: I don't think LBC can be compared to anything outside of salvage in terms of relating how effective defence is on it. As others have stated, SE gave the chariots, and well mobs in general in salvage very low attack ratings making it easy for non-tanks to mitigate damage just by stacking defence.

[SassiAsura]

I imagine I can read more about def/vit's diminishing returns somewhere? I need an argument to for AFv2 body's superiority over MBody.

[divisortheory]

Considering LBC has some obscenely high attack stats, I don't believe using him as a test case would yield any meaningful results. I mean, he crits me for like 700 on my RNG - I don't think it would help if I had 50 extra DEF.

Actually he has VERY LOW attack. What's high is his base D.

K maybe it's just me with the obscenely low defense stats lol

Well, the example you gave above was critting for 700. That's normal, that's what happens when an enemy has high base D. The fact that his crits are orders of magnitude stronger than his normal attack is what tipped people off to the High Base D/Low Attack property in the first place.

Adding DEF will help mitigate this, because DEF acts as a denominator, where the crit multipler acts as a numerator. A curve isn't actually that hard to come up with. Just guesstimate LBC's attack (say 200), then graph the line 200/x. Or if you think his attack is more like 400, graph 400/x.

[Kaeko]

I'm completely clueless as far as the equations and stuff here but sounds like yes it does help for the salvage boss? XD

Also to compare #s with Lhexh I will take about 300-350 from LBC in about 250 DEF (no protect). So it seems that adding 150 defensive did reduce damage a ton. I was using the same -% damage gear as you most likely (terra umbra).

[mikazuki]

b.dmg+((str-vit+x)/4)*f(atk/def - (lvDif*0.05))

base damage, x will be a small number if the str-vit is large number, f means function, lvDif will be negative so should be zeroed.

you can't do anything about the b.dmg number, or the lvDif obviously, str-vit (fSTR) makes little difference at any high b.dmg. assuming the mob does have an attack of around 300, i think the hit-low comes at 10/12 ratio (check vzx translation or studio gobli since it's you kaeko^^) so 360def would cause the mob to hit for low numbers aside from crits - which will still be abusively high because they can't be less than the base damage i think (i'd have to check that).

protectIV is good for this situation, tacos can be substituted for foods which give lower def caps but similar +%def unless you are actually getting to the def cap on the tacos.
by contrast stoneskin and phalanx are quite weak.

[VZX]

Assuming the atk/def function from monster is the same as Player Character,
Def give you diminishing return

try to assume monster atk = 400
and increase your defense from 100 to 800 by 100 each time

400/100 = 4.00
-------------------- Δ=2
400/200 = 2.00
-------------------- Δ=0.666...
400/300 = 1.33
-------------------- Δ=0.333...
400/400 = 1.00
-------------------- Δ=0.2
400/500 = 0.80
-------------------- Δ=0.133..
400/600 = 0.66..
-------------------- Δ=0.09
400/700 = 0.57
-------------------- Δ=0.07
400/800 = 0.5

notice how Δ (multiplier difference) is getting smaller and smaller

EDIT: formatting, easier to read, etc

[Sheeny]

This won't specifically help for your question, but a side-tip: we go BLM/NIN for nuke-kiting LBC. Personally I usually shake LBC in 2-5 attacks. So I take 0-2 hits per kite.

[Xfaustx]

This won't specifically help for your question, but a side-tip: we go BLM/NIN for nuke-kiting LBC. Personally I usually shake LBC in 2-5 attacks. So I take 0-2 hits per kite.

i thought we already discussed your kind wasnt welcomed here.

seriously

[Kaeko]

Thanks VZX, I think that explains the diminishing returns concept very well. I think based on the equations, it also shows why in Silver Seas, when those Fomor use Barbed Crescent (brings your DEF to 1 basically), the Fomor can absolutely rape you (you're dividing by 1 now pretty much take the full damage).

To Sheeny: we actually use /NIN right now but, debating going back to /RDM. Right now, we usually take 3 BLMs, where I'm the only one /RDM (no /NIN sub ready), and generally I still die the same amount or less than the /NIN.

[Demetrius*]

its aegis schism or something like that