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  1. #1
    Relic Weapons
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    Vann Zirk
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    dex/crit relation, WS crits, WS gorgets discussion

    http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...37/DexGear.jpg

    Aight so decided to try and get a random party with my dex build to see how high I could push my crit rate without any external bonuses i.e. a hidden effect from Maat's Cap.

    This was like at 3:00am when no one was doing anything so three other LS mates decided to make a party with me. I was using squid sushi for an additional +6 dex bringing me to +61 dex total. I never swapped out of this gear for any WS or any JA.

    http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...tRateParse.jpg

    From top to bottom that is:
    lolbst pet
    Mandau thf/war
    mnk/war (me)
    brd/whm (which we had melee for a bit in af2 body to mimic Ravenlokk's setup as much as possible)
    war/nin
    brd/nin
    rdm/whm

    This was at greater colibri camp, we only fought one wivre out of the 152 mobs. It was pretty much a joke party, me and the war were constantly doing Mistral axe > dragon kick with light threnody up, etc etc. A few times I switched to sis kabebi and lost the +6 dex to try and produce some better lights. Bard songs were dual minuets and marches.

    Anyways to get to the point, a few times throughout the parse I broke 30% crit rate, finishing at 29.38%. I also had the war run a parse incase there was any bias in my parser, he also had me down at 29% crit rate. Both of us parsed on Dvs 1.5.1., I tried to get a copy of his parse to post, but he was running into problems with it getting shrunk down etc.

    I think this is pretty conclusive evidence there is no hidden effect of crit rate+ on Maat's Cap, Ravenlokk's high crit rate was just the result of stacked dex. I'm pretty sure I have slightly more dex than him in this gear setup, which could explain why I'm slightly above a few of his parses where he was around 28% crit rate. (Although I do only have 1 trial backing me up, and there also was at least one instance he parsed above my crit rate. I probably am not going to do this again for more trials, meleeing in warwolf belt makes me cringe. )

    The only thing that puzzles me is how stacking additional dex had such a large effect on the crit rate. People say Byakko's haidate is a 1-2% increase from the 15 dex. In my normal gear setup I have +20 dex (haidate and rajas) which is always around 16% crit rate. I had 41 more dex on top of that in the dex setup, so if every 15 dex is 2% more crit rate (being slightly generous with the previous assumption) I should have only gained around 5-6% crit rate from all my dex, putting me at 21-22% total crit rate, this was clearly not the case, and the reason for thinking Raven's maat's cap was providing a hidden +7% crit rate to make up for the gap.

    So either people were underestimating the crit bonus from byakko's haidate, or as I mentioned in the sticky thread, eventually if you stack enough dex you must break some kind of critical rate tier, where each dex you add has a larger effect on your crit rate.

    Either way, discuss, or something.

    Edit: did some more ninja editing.

  2. #2
    The Once and Future Wamoura
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    Myth Busted?

  3. #3
    Relic Weapons
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    Curses you foiled one of my ninja edits

  4. #4
    Fake Numbers
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    thats some nice info , and thx to your result it wont sux to not have maat cap

    Maybe its only the greater colibri which have a really bad critical resistance , and when you exceed a certain quantity of DEX, the mob take a beating

    If there is "tier" of critical rate maybe you could remove "slowly" a DEX equip slot after slot and make a kind of curve DEX/critical hit rate

  5. #5
    Relic Weapons
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    can you post a link to where you got that parser plz ?

  6. #6
    Relic Weapons
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xno
    If there is "tier" of critical rate maybe you could remove "slowly" a DEX equip slot after slot and make a kind of curve DEX/critical hit rate
    That would be ideal to get behind the dex-crit rate relationship, but I was just doing this to see if Maat's cap had a hidden effect, I'll leave the more extensive testing to someone else.

    And Cletis, just use the search function and find a post by Divisortheory and click the link in his sig.

  7. #7

    Sweaty Dick Punching Enthusiast

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    I only parse like, 15ish% crit in my mnks haste setup. If a little dex is all that it takes to get it up to 30%.. then I can totally see doing that for fun without hurting a party too much.

    Gotta find ways to keep this shit fresh, i'm gonna try it.

  8. #8

    Quote Originally Posted by Cletis
    can you post a link to where you got that parser plz ?
    http://www.ultimals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4148

  9. #9
    Blackice
    Guest

    Nice results, but I'm going to go ahead and point out the obvious while being a negative nancy, I'm pretty sure haste setup will still produce the best numbers (parsed dmg.)

  10. #10

    Crits will be most effective in cases where your base pdif is pretty terrible, and merits on MNK/WAR with 2 BRDs, your pdif is a lot closer to the cap end than to the crappy end unless there's something horribly, horribly wrong.

    Its still an interesting test, you could probably get a decently effective compromise for super high def mobs, although you'd ever really want absolute full DEX for anything considering the huge sacrifice in some slots.

  11. #11

    Quote Originally Posted by Retrieving/C.D/Searain

    (...)

    You're also overstimating the effects of weapons base DMG and understimating the role of Dexterity when it comes to triggering criticals in a multi-hit weapon skill; in fact large quantities of DEX in your WS macro may compensate for the lack of Attack, just by increasing the chances of criticals*.

    If you're doubtful about the relevance of crits for Rampage and Vorpal just ask your Warrior friend to show you the difference between a NQ and a Mighty Strikes'ed weapon skill; scoring a critical on all the hits is possible (although rare) even without 2hr anyhow, most of the times, adding MS to one of the aforementioned WS equals a doubled damage output.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palin
    however I've tested it multiple times and AF2 Legs produce higher average WS numbers.
    False.
    Quote Originally Posted by famous anonymous
    (...)

    It's basically 7.5 acc vs 5 STR.

    I'm sorry but in more situations than not anyone saying they crit signicantly more with Haidate is a victem of a placebo effect.

    However, I'd still have to say that DEX does more for accuracy than anything else with Rampage. It's been proved that small improvements of DEX don't influence your actual critical hit-rate with melee attacks more than 1-2%, so really I wouldn't rely on equiping something with +DEX in hope of landing criticals much more often.
    Guess who was wrong (about the fact that stacking up DEX gear, where possible and without sacrificing too much Atk/STR (to some extent), for multi-hit WS increased dramatically the chances of performing critical hits, not just about Haidate)!

    Shame that I don't have enough time to play anymore to conduct a thorough test about the effects of a DEX heavy build on Rampage and Vorpal crits rate/damage because my experience repeatedly suggested me the importance of loldexterity and I've been preaching this for a while. :P

  12. #12

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackice
    Nice results, but I'm going to go ahead and point out the obvious while being a negative nancy, I'm pretty sure haste setup will still produce the best numbers (parsed dmg.)
    I'm sure you're right in most situations, but perhaps it'll be useful in the odd situation where we're stuck punching a PLD mob without a BRD and so on.

  13. #13

    So Maat's Cap is still junk.

  14. #14
    Old Merits
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starr
    So Maat's Cap is still junk.
    I dunno, Raven's gear set only gave him +37 DEX... So you had to nearly double the amount of dex you added to get the same effectiveness of crits? I still think theres something to Maat's cap, otherwise your +60ish DEX should have outcrit'd his +37DEX (in Maat's cap). But as shown, your crits are nearly the same as his...

  15. #15
    The Once and Future Wamoura
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starr
    So Maat's Cap is still junk.
    cue "Ambrosia on my head"

  16. #16
    Sea Torques
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keno
    Quote Originally Posted by Starr
    So Maat's Cap is still junk.
    I dunno, Raven's gear set only gave him +37 DEX... So you had to nearly double the amount of dex you added to get the same effectiveness of crits? I still think theres something to Maat's cap, otherwise your +60ish DEX should have outcrit'd his +37DEX (in Maat's cap). But as shown, your crits are nearly the same as his...
    maybe this goes back to the idea that there is a crit tier you break after stacking a certain amount of dex, but stacking anymore wont do anything (significantly) unless its enough to break another tier- if it exists

  17. #17
    E. Body
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    I'm sorry, I might be stupid but did you test it with a Maat's Cap, then without a Maat's Cap? How can you get conclusive evidence about an item without...testing the item. >_>..

    I understand your DEX argument, but you stacked yours hardcore, I don't recall if Ravenlokk did or not, but if he got the crit bonus from the cap without stacking so much DEX, then it's still inconclusive if, with the DEX setup you were using AND a Maat's Cap, that the percentage can be pushed higher.

  18. #18
    Old Merits
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    Quote Originally Posted by safer
    Quote Originally Posted by Keno
    Quote Originally Posted by Starr
    So Maat's Cap is still junk.
    I dunno, Raven's gear set only gave him +37 DEX... So you had to nearly double the amount of dex you added to get the same effectiveness of crits? I still think theres something to Maat's cap, otherwise your +60ish DEX should have outcrit'd his +37DEX (in Maat's cap). But as shown, your crits are nearly the same as his...
    maybe this goes back to the idea that there is a crit tier you break after stacking a certain amount of dex, but stacking anymore wont do anything (significantly) unless its enough to break another tier- if it exists
    Well that should be tested, because if it's true then a proper build mixing both DEX and haste could add a significant amount to your overall parse. Items like W. Turban, Swift/Speed Belt, and Dusk gloves (jobs that arent MNK) could probably be left on and you can just adjust the other items to reach the DEX/crit tier break. An increase of 15% in crits while keeping the same amount of haste and accuracy could definately be worth it.

    Either that crit tier idea, or Maat's cap actually does something. I require further testing!

  19. #19
    Fake Numbers
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    even if he parsed on 150+ mobs , there s still a bit of randomness

    60DEX compared to 37 is 23 DEX => 2.3 crit~

    Raven was 27-29 in his parse , Vann was 29-30, vaan still have better crit from his +60DEX

    but there s still something weird about those results, not how they were done , but some crit comes from nowhere

  20. #20
    Sea Torques
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    7/10th of a lolsode on your head... how about that instead?

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