dex/crit relation, WS crits, WS gorgets discussion

[RKenshin]

lol my mistake

FFXII brainwashed me.

[Rocl]

You are sneaky, Rocl.

That's why they call me whiskers.

[Zirk]

Rocl it seems blasphemous to mention your membership in the Wamoura Fan Club yet have no mention of Yin.

Unless there was a merger I'm unaware of.

[Rocl]

Most people know that I'm the Second Pope of Yin. But yes, the Wamoura Fan Club is run by the Church of Yin.

Back to testing Critical Hit Rate stuff though >_> gogo

[Zirk]

Trapped at nid camp

wait.............

I knew darters were here for something other than vokin'!

[DrObvious]

One other thing pops into my mind which I'm confused about. I've read a lot on both sides about whether or not it's possible to crit on a WS that doesn't have crit in it's descriptions and I don't think its been proven either way whether its possible or not. If in fact you cannot crit on a normal WS how can we say with any certainty that DEX even affects crit WS and that TP isnt the only affect whatsoever.

If you weren't able to crit on a normal WS, stacking SA with WS wouldn't work. Any WS that SA affects can potentially crit.

This is fallacious logic, and is the same reason why people incorrectly assumed that blu spells could naturally crit without the use of sneak attack.

This thread did a pretty good job of proving that wrong though: http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php? ... 02#2961002

[Rocl]

That thread is from 2 months ago and people still didnt know Puks are weak to piercing? >_>

[geno]

I'll have some morep parses with Basts +43DEX and +46DEX setups. The +43DEX setup is looking somewhat promising in this party so far though.

[RKenshin]

So, curiousity is getting the best of me and I want to try and see what my results are with a DEX build on SAM. I'm mostly curious to see how this effects a job wielding a 2h weapon.

This is what I normally use for gear on SAM:
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/8295/ffxi857ho4.jpg

On average it gives me about a 10% critical hit-rate with 85-90% accuracy, and I always use meat (occasionally tacos!). Listing strictly the bonuses from gear (including 2DEX > 1acc, 2STR > 1att conversations), these are the stats without any buffs:

STR   +24
DEX   +26
Att   +67
Acc   +61.3
Haste +19%

Feel free to check my math, it's really late for me so I might be off. D:

And this is what 5 minutes at the AH produced for DEX gear:
http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/149/ffxi858qf6.jpg

I debated possible combinations for a while, and decided that I thought the above set was the best combination for breaking the believed 120 DEX tier. Most importantly I wanted to maintain a 6 hit setup, so I didn't want to change gloves. I don't really care about losing the back piece either, my attack is most likely capped anyway most of the time, plus I've never had very noticeable results with lots of attack on 2h weapons anyway (lol2hdot). Not to mention over 50% of my damage on SAM is from my weapon skill damage.

But yeah, with the above I can at least still eat meat. The stats would be the following for that set of gear:

STR   +27        (gain of 3 STR)
DEX   +56        (gain of 30 DEX)
Att   +23.5      (loss of 43.5 Att)
Acc   +58        (loss of 3.3 Acc)
Haste +10%       (loss of 9% Haste)

Again, feel free to double check my math.

Including Hasso and Meat I'll also get another +10 STR, +10% Haste, +10 Acc, and around 70 to 90 attack on top of it (depending on food). Not counting bonuses from GK merits and the like. So yeah, I think that set of gear could work.

As far as the practical use of this, I'm very doubtful it'll turn out to be anything more than just something for fun. I don't think it'll give better results than my first set, but I'd rather give it a shot for sure. I have a pretty good idea of what % of the parse I should be in an exp PT from all the parses I've recorded, so we'll see.

So yeah I haven't tried it yet, but will next opportunity in a PT.

[Suiram]

Be honest, is the reason you blacked out your gil in the first picture but not the second because you don't want us to know how much you really spent on a DEX build?

[RKenshin]

I forgot to block it in the second pic lol... I fixed it.

I'm going to have to get rid of you now, you know too much. Better watch your back.

[Ryko]

You're not supposed to warn him

[Keno]

Ruke you going to parse it now or you going to sleep?

[RKenshin]

How do you know he isn't already dead? I'm slick like that.

I thought I was the only one crazy enough to still be up at like 6 AM tonight though, what's your excuse?

EDIT: I just got a PT Keno, so I can give it a shot. The PT is still building so as long as it still happens I'll be able to, however it might not be the best example by the looks of the setup so far... If it doesn't work out I'm just going to sleep. Or at worst I'll try it in a PT sometime tomorrow or over the weekend.

[Keno]

How do you know he isn't already dead? I'm slick like that.

I thought I was the only one crazy enough to still be up at like 6 AM tonight though, what's your excuse?

EDIT: I just got a PT Keno, so I can give it a shot. The PT is still building so as long as it still happens I'll be able to, however it might not be the best example by the looks of the setup so far... If it doesn't work out I'm just going to sleep. Or at worst I'll try it in a PT sometime tomorrow or over the weekend.

Cool, I'm excited to hear the results :D

By the way, calculated as a hume NIN. The ideal build would be: U/U, Lightning Bow+1, W. Turban, PCC, Brutal, Supp, Osode, Dusk Gloves (+1), Thunder Ring, Rajas Ring, Fuma Sune-Ate, B. Haidate, Swift Belt (Speed Belt), Commanders Cape. Also 4 dex merits (I know, loldexmerits, but if you can hit the crit cap with them you'll see much better output than with 4STR, which has no noticable tier.

So that's base 68 DEX, +4 from merits, +7 katanas, +3 Bow, +10 rings, +10 body, +3 back, +15 legs. =120 total.

So yes, you can keep brutal, supp, and every piece of haste gear. Making this absolutely fucking pimp for NIN. With normal setup below (not everyons setup, but approximate):

U/U, Fire bomblet, W. Turban, PCC, Brutal, Supp, Shura Togi, Dusk gloves (+1), Sniper Ring x2 (+1), Forager's Mantle, Swift Belt (Speed), B. Haidate, Fuma Sune-Ate.

The difference from going to normal setup to 120 dex setup is:
-41 Attack, -26 Accuracy (Not counting accuracy from new DEX added), +30 DEX, +11 STR.

In my opinion, if the cap is 120 then it is definately worth it for this build on NIN. This was made for Humes btw... If you count the accuracy added from the new addition of 30 DEX then you're really only losing 11 accuracy from switching sets. So the only noticable decrease is in attack. Oh, and this isn't taking food into account, so you can eat meat or sushi, whichever suits you better for the camp.

[Ryko]

How do you know he isn't already dead? I'm slick like that.

I thought I was the only one crazy enough to still be up at like 6 AM tonight though, what's your excuse?

Faf window ._.

A bad excuse, but an excuse nonetheless.

[Rocl]

How do you know he isn't already dead? I'm slick like that.

I thought I was the only one crazy enough to still be up at like 6 AM tonight though, what's your excuse?

Faf window ._.

A bad excuse, but an excuse nonetheless.

That's terrible.

Even I don't camp Fafnir at 7 AM!

[RKenshin]

Bleh, this parse is going to be worthless. Need a lot more DEX to get this to work at the Bhaflau Thickets (mamool staging point exit) camp, 121 is too small. I'm a little frustrated too because there's only three PTs in thickets and for some reason we went to the mamool staging point part, where the other 3 PTs are. Colibri is empty, but for some reason we're still here.

I'll upload the parse later, still in the PT. The setup is BRD, MNK/NIN, WAR/NIN, RDM, BLM and myself. A little over an hour into the PT and critical hit-rate is fluctuating around 14-15%; definitely not a tier here. Works out to about a 3-5% improvement in critical hit-rate in adding 30 DEX.

DEX builds for TP might just be worthless outside of Colibri camp at this rate, assuming this isn't one big fluke. Having to equip even more than 120 in +DEX to get a tier here is just too much IMO.


EDIT: Ok, PT over... It lasted a little over two hours, and yeah as I said the results are pretty disappointing. I'll have to try it again at the Colibri camp sometime soon because it's poop at Mamool/Skoffin/Puks. Here's the parse:

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/2638/ffxi859ze3.jpg

Top player is a WAR/NIN, below him is the BLM who ironically spent the entire time curing/pulling/sleeping and almost never nuked, then me, then the MNK/NIN, then the BRD, and lastly the RDM. Critical hit-rate was about 3-5% better at best than normal...

Maybe DEX doesn't like me.

[Ferien]

One other thing pops into my mind which I'm confused about. I've read a lot on both sides about whether or not it's possible to crit on a WS that doesn't have crit in it's descriptions and I don't think its been proven either way whether its possible or not. If in fact you cannot crit on a normal WS how can we say with any certainty that DEX even affects crit WS and that TP isnt the only affect whatsoever.

If you weren't able to crit on a normal WS, stacking SA with WS wouldn't work. Any WS that SA affects can potentially crit.

This is fallacious logic, and is the same reason why people incorrectly assumed that blu spells could naturally crit without the use of sneak attack.

This thread did a pretty good job of proving that wrong though: http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php? ... 02#2961002

You can still attribute his results to luck, so it doesn't really prove that they can't crit without help. It is, however, pretty good evidence, but if that's the case I want an explanation for my Staff WSes occasionally doing abnormally high (near double) damage w/o the help of SA or Double Attack.

If I've got free time I'll go out and collect some data for you to pick through, but I just got back from spring break and started a new job, so free time isn't something I'm planning on having.

[Nagamaki]

There's still other camps (or other game activities in general, not just merits) where the mobs would have presumably lower or similar AGI than Greater Colibri. Most Al'taieu/Tu'lia mobs short of Aw'aerns/Aura Statues, most stuff in assaults, certainly things in the easier dynamis runs and limbus.. Its true all that stuff isn't exactly hard, but its not like merits on colibris, or merits in general are partcularly hard.

Oh and I'm not saying going for crit cap in all those situations would automatically be the best option, it just stands a chance of being viable, at least moreso than against 81-83 Mamools.


I checked that thread on KI... Goddamn, people are retarded. The whole first test with the guy instantly concluding they can crit, when just a quick comparison of his dmg range vs ms dmg makes it painfully obvious the non-ms range follows normal hit pdif rules... wth. Oh and wtf at puk being weak to ice or dragon family being some kind of proof that they're not weak to piercing, that just bleeds logic.