dex/crit relation, WS crits, WS gorgets discussion

[Ferien]

It's KI...most of the board is populated by recent Alla graduates, and they're kept in check by those of us who spend more time here on BG.

[Keno]

Bleh, this parse is going to be worthless. Need a lot more DEX to get this to work at the Bhaflau Thickets (mamool staging point exit) camp, 121 is too small. I'm a little frustrated too because there's only three PTs in thickets and for some reason we went to the mamool staging point part, where the other 3 PTs are. Colibri is empty, but for some reason we're still here.

I'll upload the parse later, still in the PT. The setup is BRD, MNK/NIN, WAR/NIN, RDM, BLM and myself. A little over an hour into the PT and critical hit-rate is fluctuating around 14-15%; definitely not a tier here. Works out to about a 3-5% improvement in critical hit-rate in adding 30 DEX.

DEX builds for TP might just be worthless outside of Colibri camp at this rate, assuming this isn't one big fluke. Having to equip even more than 120 in +DEX to get a tier here is just too much IMO.


EDIT: Ok, PT over... It lasted a little over two hours, and yeah as I said the results are pretty disappointing. I'll have to try it again at the Colibri camp sometime soon because it's poop at Mamool/Skoffin/Puks. Here's the parse:

[img]http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/2638 ... e3.jpg=img]

Top player is a WAR/NIN, below him is the BLM who ironically spent the entire time curing/pulling/sleeping and almost never nuked, then me, then the MNK/NIN, then the BRD, and lastly the RDM. Critical hit-rate was about 3-5% better at best than normal...

Maybe DEX doesn't like me.

Mind trying the NIN build I threw up earlier? Dont have to merit dex obviously, can just use the DEX+ food. Maybe it will have different results (wishful thinking).

[Steveon]

Luckily the de-rail was re-railed before I got the chance to post, so I won't feel as awkward posting about a dex build.

Like many others, I said "lol" to a dex build, especially when my closest friend in the game started using one and swearing by it. Both being Nins, when we got a hold of the DivParse, we decided on testing out his dex/haste build versus my accuracy/str/haste build. I no longer have the parses because I wiped them at the same time I wiped FF from my PC but he may still have (I'll have to ask).

Two main parses came to mind, the more "recent" (January) merit parties we had together where he, as per the norm for us, outparsed me. The only really noteworthy piece of gear that he had over me was his Speed Belt and that may have tipped the parse in his favor.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...u/img_0019.png

This is his melee set up for the most part. As you can see, most slots are dedicated to dex. Granted he cheated by using a Sole Sushi+1 (I just noticed), for the most part, those would be his stats in meripo.

As for the parser results, much like Raven and others before him, his critical hit percentage capped off at 28%-29% and nothing he could do could get it any higher. He's tried both Unji and Unsho as well as Senjurikio (sp) and Unji as his katana with Unji and Unsho actually pulling out the consistent 29% critical hit rate. I, a lol-dex believer, usually averaged around a 16-17% critical hit rate with the only really note worthy dex piece I used was the Haidate. We both had capped katana merits, capped critical merits and he had 2 dex merits with myself at 2 str merits.

In conclusion, what I am basically trying to point out is that much like how it is speculated that (please excuse me if the information is incorrect) STR can cap out on SAM where adding more doesn't really help WS damage and you need more attack to compliment it (I think it was +50 str that meant adding more was moot until you had a significant amount of attack added on), dex for one handed/dual wielded weapons probably caps out at +50~ dex. Much like accuracy caps out at around 93-94%, adding more will do little to nothing, etc, etc.

However, for dex builds, it isn't as easy to compliment as it is for str because there aren't that many critical+ items as there are attack+. As for two handed weapons, like Rkenshin pointed out above, you probably need a lot more dex to justify a critical build. I wouldn't know, I ignored my SAM towards the end of my playtime.

All things being even, if I had a Speed Belt/Swift Belt to complete my build, I believe I would been equal or outparsed Wet. Our accuracy were both capped off and I was always within 2% less of his total damage.

(Edit: Added picture of his gear that he sent me. Sadly enough, I don't have any pics of the gear I used before I quit)
(Edit 2: Sorry for the large pic, I couldn't scale it down nor crop it because I am at work and they don't have those fancy photoshop programs here . And I wanted to post this before the next de-rail.)

[Nagamaki]

I did a quick crit test on ranged this morning, sample size was small (200 shots*2) so I wouldn't swear by the exact rates I got but it looks like people's recollection was right and thunder staff/dex gear doesn't help it (at least, if dex does, it would do so based on a completely different stat correlation).

Crit rate with thf/whm dex of 65 and no mods was 14.5, and with thunder staff and +30 dex is was 14.9.

Wasn't really unexpected, just sucks cause now I know I should just have just gone right to a different test, now I have to actually do some work for awhile.

[Lhexh]

I took an hour and duo'd as RDM with a NIN friend of mine in Thickets at Mamool Ja Staging point just to see what dex is required to break the tier since Ruk's test came up short. She used Kikoku + Unsho and had 77+53 dex eating Sole Sushi ( 130 dex total ). She was able to get this only sacrificing Bomb Core->Lightning Bow+1, Sniper+1->Thunder, Dusk+1 Hands -> AF+1, and Chainmail+1 -> Osode while maintaining the rest of her haste/attack gear.

I don't have the SS of the parse data since it was done on her machine and I was using my mule on a diff box without a parser installed.

Mamool Ja Blusters: 633 swings, 94.06% accuracy, 20.22% crit rate. The crit rate was pretty consistently around 20% on every mob killed.

Mamool Ja Philosophers : 295 swings, 92.19% accuracy, 13.56% crit rate. On one philospoher the crit rate was 20% but the others all hovered around 11-12%.

Sea Puks : 367 swings, 95.57% accuracy, 17.71% crit rate. On the 2 highest level Puks, based on xp gained, the crit rate was actually in the 11-12% range again but was 18-20% against the others.

This isn't a particularly large sample size but it seems 130 dex is just barely borderline enough dex to hit that first tier and will fluctuate based on the mob itself and what level it is.

[SassiAsura]

Okay, I must have ADD or something... are you guys using dex builds over 120. And see beneficial results? If so... my world just collapsed and the people I've been lol'ing at for having Dex rings have (unknowingly... of course) been on the right path?

[wartortle]

They aren't even to the beneficial (or not) result phase.

Right now it's all data gathering.

[mikazuki]

blusterer is whm, philosopher is blm, blm has a greater AGI rating than whm so you'd expect to see the blusterers with something like 65-70AGI and the philosophers with about 73-78AGI, puks have higher AGI but it's offset by the lower level.

it's pretty easy to use dex effectively as a mithra melee, other races need to be thf or mnk to get much out of the stat.

[Tajin]

watch the prices of spike necklaces skyrocket because RKykoshin got 1

[Lordwafik]

blusterer is whm, philosopher is blm, blm has a greater AGI rating than whm so you'd expect to see the blusterers with something like 65-70AGI and the philosophers with about 73-78AGI, puks have higher AGI but it's offset by the lower level.

it's pretty easy to use dex effectively as a mithra melee, other races need to be thf or mnk to get much out of the stat.

do you mean for base stat? For +stat it's kinda hard for non sky jobs to get that much dex, haidate is a big help.

[aurik]

yay monks in dex, bring on the temple gaiters+1 monks

[mikazuki]

mithra thf/war base dex = 79
mithra sam/war base dex = 75
hume thf/war base dex = 72
elvaan thf/war base dex = 69
elvaan sam/war base dex = 65

haidate cover the difference between a mithra thf and elvaan sam to be fair. i guess thf was a bad example^^
same job the difference is 10dex between mithra and elvaan however.

[Khamsin]

mithra thf/war base dex = 79
mithra sam/war base dex = 75
hume thf/war base dex = 72
elvaan thf/war base dex = 69
elvaan sam/war base dex = 65

haidate cover the difference between a mithra thf and elvaan sam to be fair. i guess thf was a bad example^^
same job the difference is 10dex between mithra and elvaan however.

I always thought the max stat difference between any two races of a given job was 8.

[mikazuki]

that's from http://www.datasync.com/~dsmith/FFXIStats/? which might well be wrong^^
taru blm vs elvaan blm produces a difference of 13int, brd and bst should give 8chr difference (gk/mr coming in low). taru and galka pld is difference of 10.
if the stats it produces are wrong there's no point in it being linked from wiki.

[Nagamaki]

One of the questions that's been debated is whether DEX/crit gear had any potential for critical damage WS. As MNK, that question is pretty much moot, but for Rampage/Jin/Evisceration, it actually could help. Like everything else, whether it would be effective would depend on what you have to sacrifice to get there, higher crit rate on WS wouldn't necessarily mean higher avg WS.

To test this out on MNK, I went with Backhand Blow (Crit by TP). I used the Miner Bees in Lufaise again since I know the DEX numbers for them, didn't use the sheep for WS testing though. Backhand Blow is a 2hit, and figuring out whether separate hits got crit would have been a pain, so I just made sure to always kill the mob with a single hit of the WS, and I always went with TP between 100 and 120. The mobs conveniently enough gave me roughly 50% TP before dying, so I just finished every other mob with WS, or used Meditate before going for next mob. A few times a crit chain or relic triple fucked it up, so I just rested my TP back down to around 60% before getting a new mob.

Test with floored crit mod

Non-crit Gear

Spharai
Tiphia
Optical
Faith Torque
Loquacious
Cassie
Togi
Bando
Flame
Sniper's
Foragers
BB
Shura Haidate
Dune
No food

STR 99
DEX 67

Damage range calculations (pre-testing)

0.3(99) + 0.3(67)
29 + 20 * 0.83 = 40

55+13+40 = 108

With base 108, pdif ranges:
Reg
1.6 => 172
2.4 => 259
Crit
2.6 => 280
3 => 324

Test results

22/50 crit, 44% (small sample so error margin is wide)

Non-crit range 186-255 (28)
Crit range 283-324 (22)
10 of the 22 crits for 324, matching usual crit cap behavior

Total melee crit rate was 9% over 700 hits

Test with capped crit mods

Crit Gear

Destroyers
Tiphia
Optical
Spike
Minuet
Pixie
Osode
Bando
Rajas
Thunder
Foragers
Warwolf
Byakko's
Melee Gaiters
Squid

STR 105
DEX 124
+6% from Destroyers

Damage range calculations (pre-testing)

0.3(105) + 0.3(124)
31 + 37 * 0.83 = 56

50+13+56 = 119

With base 119, pdif ranges:
Reg
1.6 => 190
2.4 => 285
Crit
2.6 => 309
3 => 357

Test results

37/50 crit, 74% (small sample so error margin is wide)

Non-crit range 204-259 (13)
Crit range 313-357 (37)
17 of the 37 crits for 357, matching usual crit cap behavior

Total melee crit rate was 29% over 750 hits



Looking at those, its very very clear that crit boosts do work on the crit rate of Backhand Blow. The sample is too small to be certain of the percentages, but the overall trend is pretty obvious. It certainly is possible that Rampage/Jin/Evis would behave differently from Backhand, but at the very least this confirms crit gear works for some crit based WS.

[Priran]

mithra thf/war base dex = 79
mithra sam/war base dex = 75
hume thf/war base dex = 72
elvaan thf/war base dex = 69
elvaan sam/war base dex = 65

haidate cover the difference between a mithra thf and elvaan sam to be fair. i guess thf was a bad example^^
same job the difference is 10dex between mithra and elvaan however.

I always thought the max stat difference between any two races of a given job was 8.

No, iirc Taru have 13 less STR than Elvaan MNKs.

[VZX]

DEX builds for TP might just be worthless outside of Colibri camp at this rate, assuming this isn't one big fluke. Having to equip even more than 120 in +DEX to get a tier here is just too much IMO.

I haven't personally gone to colibri camp.

Are they among the least evasive known mobs for merit PT ?

[SassiAsura]

DEX builds for TP might just be worthless outside of Colibri camp at this rate, assuming this isn't one big fluke. Having to equip even more than 120 in +DEX to get a tier here is just too much IMO.

I haven't personally gone to colibri camp.

Are they among the least evasive known mobs for merit PT ?

Yeah, it's a really simple mob. They tend to eat food alot so people purchase inexpensive meat when they go there to begin with. I wouldn't be surprised if their AGI is very low.

[Shuemue]

No, iirc Taru have 13 less STR than Elvaan MNKs.

Just another reason why I hate those fucking trees.

[Suiram]

Do any of the player-accessible moves/spells/effects give a known percentage-based reduction in target evasion, rather than a fixed amount? If so it should be fairly straight-forward to determine enemy AGI (albeit a bit time-consuming) by checking evasion with the Evasion-Down effect, and with the Evasion Down effect plus a Frost effect. Even if no percent-based evasion reduction exists, it should still be possible to determine the AGI of any mob with 37 or lower base AGI, but I don't know if any of those would make suitable test subjects.