dex/crit relation, WS crits, WS gorgets discussion

[Zirk]

Unfortunatly you could never know if a mob had high evasion but low AGI, or vice versa. This can be deduced easily on mobs with certain jobs (RNG, NIN, THF, etc), but even on normal exp mobs like greater colibri, its possible they could have higher than normal AGI yet still be less evasive than the next mob.

Even if you could reduce the mobs AGI directly by a known amount, you still couldn't figure out how much AGI the mob had initially.

[dilbert]

I bet when SE finally gets frustrated with all the questions about stats and what they affect they will just impliment a testing area like in FF10 where you could pay to fight monsters in the eastern part of the Calm Lands and perhaps you could pick the base stats for the monsters. A guy can dream right?

[Zirk]

I think I have to agree with Lhexh in the fact that if a WS can't critical at all if TP doesn't modify critical hit-rate, then any kind of +critical% from an item or for DEX is most likely useless for all WS. And I mean this not just for the non-critical WS, but even the WS that have critical hit-rate modified by TP. It just makes the most sense... This would mean your normal critical hit-rate whether buffed by DEX or +critical hit-rate just wouldn't have any effect on weapon skills, making it so the only WS that could possibly critical would be the ones with the TP modifier. And that is exactly what the proof is leading to.

                            New Info
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*Test Data*

Looking at those, its very very clear that crit boosts do work on the crit rate of Backhand Blow. The sample is too small to be certain of the percentages, but the overall trend is pretty obvious. It certainly is possible that Rampage/Jin/Evis would behave differently from Backhand, but at the very least this confirms crit gear works for some crit based WS.

I'm not one of these jobs, but it seems these results are quite significant in terms of the viabilty of dex build on rampage/jin/evis since there is no issue with removing haste gear for dex on WS, and all three of the jobs that can use the above WS can stack dex fairly easily.

Before Searain and Ruke get into a huge flame war over who was right and so fourth, someone should test if Naga's results can be duplicated with one of those three WS.

[docvicious]

You guys are forgetting that if there is a possibility of +7%Crit increase, I would imagine it is not only that. I would imagine there would be 7%magic accuracy , 7% MAB, 7%magic defense all the little things like that. I seriously think that if SE was smart about maats cap and just showed the Stats that Crit increase would be the only thing it would be giving something only to Melee jobs, I doubt they would forget the mages on something that requires that much effort and time to get.

[Zirk]

You guys are forgetting that if there is a possibility of +7%Crit increase, I would imagine it is not only that. I would imagine there would be 7%magic accuracy , 7% MAB, 7%magic defense all the little things like that. I seriously think that if SE was smart about maats cap and just showed the Stats that Crit increase would be the only thing it would be giving something only to Melee jobs, I doubt they would forget the mages on something that requires that much effort and time to get.

Yeah, if you read the thread it was shown to give +7 emnity and -7 emnity so as to not discriminate on job type.

Seriously, read the thread.

[VZX]

You guys are forgetting that if there is a possibility of +7%Crit increase, I would imagine it is not only that. I would imagine there would be 7%magic accuracy , 7% MAB, 7%magic defense all the little things like that. I seriously think that if SE was smart about maats cap and just showed the Stats that Crit increase would be the only thing it would be giving something only to Melee jobs, I doubt they would forget the mages on something that requires that much effort and time to get.

hasn't those been tested on the older thread?
especially the bolded part.

[Suiram]

You guys are forgetting that if there is a possibility of +7%Crit increase, I would imagine it is not only that. I would imagine there would be 7%magic accuracy , 7% MAB, 7%magic defense all the little things like that. I seriously think that if SE was smart about maats cap and just showed the Stats that Crit increase would be the only thing it would be giving something only to Melee jobs, I doubt they would forget the mages on something that requires that much effort and time to get.

hasn't those been tested on the older thread?
especially the bolded part.

Yeah, the guy tested there being no difference.

[docvicious]

Ahh ok sorry not a big forum reader havn't been on here in almost two years maybee a bit more or less give or take. This thread just caught my eye.

[Tiernin]

Testing ramp/jin/evis will be a very big pain in the arse. Rampage would prolly be the best to test because it doesn't have a dex modifier (don't know about evis). I guess you could probably rampage the mobs directly outside cities because one hit will most likely kill them. Still it would be very difficult and time consuming to perform such a test lol.

[Nagamaki]

Its kinda time consuming to do these tests, but "difficult" isn't particularly accurate.

Here's the same type of test for Blade: Jin, I did shorten the already small sample to 30, cause yeah this shit is pretty damn boring. Kinda hoping someone else goes and does some here.

There's one other thing that would warrant testing, and that is what the actual effect of higher TP is on the crit rate of these WS. fTP values are pretty well known, but I haven't seen anything about the fTP crit rate variation on any of the crit WS. I hoping there's some huge pool of data about this somewhere I didn't look, cause testing that would be even more time consuming than these tests, since you'd need to build more TP each time.

Anyway, the Jin test:

Floored crit mod

Non-crit Gear

Mamu +1*2
Ungur
Walahra
Peacock
Loquacious
Cassie
Togi
Alky
Flame
Sniper
Foragers
Swift
Shura Haidate
Fuma
Miths

STR108
DEX61

Damage range calculations (pre-testing)

0.3(108) + 0.3(61)
32 + 18 * 0.83 = 41

38+12+41 = 91

With base 91, pdif ranges:
Reg
1.6 => 145
2.4 => 218
Crit
2.6 => 236
3 => 273

Test results

3/30 crit, 10% (sample extremely small, but just looking for patterns here, not exact rates)

Non-crit range 148-215 (27)
Crit range 263-273 (3)
2 of the 3 crits for 273, tiny amount but still looks like usual crit cap stuff

Total melee crit rate was 9.4% over 550 hits

Capped crit mod

Crit Gear

Fudo/Senj
Ungur
Walahra
Spike
Minuet
Pixie
Osode
Bando
Rajas
Thunder
Foragers
Warwolf
Byakko's
Fuma
Squid

STR105
DEX120
+3%Fudo +6%Senj

Damage range calculations (pre-testing)

0.3(105) + 0.3(120)
31 + 36 * 0.83 = 55

F 39+12+55 = 106
S 38+12+55 = 105

With base 106-105, pdif ranges:
Reg
1.6 => 169-168
2.4 => 254-252
Crit
2.6 => 275-273
3 => 318-315

Test results

8/30 crit, 26.7% (sample extremely small, but just looking for patterns here, not exact rates)

Non-crit range 177-247 (22)
Crit range 294-318 (8)
3 of the 8 crits for 318, tiny amount but still looks like usual crit cap stuff

Total melee crit rate was 28% over 500 hits


So conclusion, looks like Jin at 100% has a crit rate that mimics your regular crit rate with the gear used. When compared with the result on BB, it probably means each crit by tp WS has a specific crit modifier at different TP levels, working similarly to the regular fTP for other WS. That modifier could be a multiplier (with a cap somewhere) or a static value boost, there's not enough data in my tests alone to conclude there.

edit: fixed some bolding

[Stellar]

I was doing a test to compare Senjuinrikio damage to Kikoku damage and was actually a bit surprised that Kikoku beat Senji on WS damage by a decent margin. You would think if the crit rate applied to WS that Senji would typically do more.. got pics of parses if anyone really wants to see..

[Zirk]

I was doing a test to compare Senjuinrikio damage to Kikoku damage and was actually a bit surprised that Kikoku beat Senji on WS damage by a decent margin. You would think if the crit rate applied to WS that Senji would typically do more.. got pics of parses if anyone really wants to see..

You are talking average WS damage right? And its not too surprising, higher base damage (slight factor) and 20 more attack on all WS vs. 6% more critical hit rate on a WS that already crits on a semi-routine basis.

[RKenshin]

The 20 Attack is always present whether main handing Senju or Kikoku, assuming he has Kikoku in his off hand doing his Senju tests. I don't see why he wouldn't though lol..

[Awoir]

nah he offhanded that assault katana he had in both parses. wanted senj/kikoku to be the only difference.

[Judai]

These tests are somewhat pointless for TP gain, but very interesting for Rampage. Right now I use Potent Belt and Sniper, but if I switched to Warwolf and a Dex ring I can hit this magic 120.

Come on Bagel, it's obviously just a placebo effect and we're all victims of a collective hallucination! Alkycuisses fo' life yo.

Beware the evil emissaries of the church of DEXtology, they're gonna eat your babies and make the prices and relevance of your multi-millionaire STR gear plummet like there's no tomorrow!

Dude, you are seriously just a moron. Maybe if you actually read people's posts instead of saying, "I didn't read your post but I am going to insult it anyways." You just make yourself look stupid in half your posts and Rk makes you look even dumber in his rebuttals. Give up.

[Nagamaki]

Evisceration

Floored crit mod

Non-crit Gear

Perseus
Ziska's/Bloodies
Homam Zucc
Peacock
Loquacious
Cassie
Homam Cora (switched to SH, realized when I killed 2 in a row with triple before WS, this test gonna be a pain)
Homam Mano
Flame
Sniper
Foragers
Swift
Homam Cosc
Homam Gamb
Miths

STR96
DEX69

Damage range calculations (pre-testing)

Bee piercing weakness factor = 1.25

0.3(69)
20 * 0.83 = 16

37+12+16 = 65

With base 65, pdif ranges:
Reg
1.6 => 104 => 130
2.4 => 156 => 195
Crit
2.6 => 169 => 211
3 => 195 => 243

Test results

4/30 crit, 13.3% (sample extremely small, but just looking for patterns here, not exact rates)

Non-crit range 132-190 (26)
Crit range 230-243 (4)
3 of the crits for 243, tiny amount but still looks like usual crit cap stuff

Total melee crit rate was 8% over 400 hits


Capped crit mod

Crit Gear

Heart Snatcher
Ziska's/Bloodies
Voyager
Spike
Minuet
Pixie
SH
Rog. Armlets +1
Rajas
Thunder
Foragers
Warwolf
Homam Cosc
Dragon Leggings
Squid

STR100
DEX107

Damage range calculations (pre-testing)

Bee piercing weakness factor = 1.25

0.3(107)
32 * 0.83 = 26

30+11+26 = 67

With base 65, pdif ranges:
Reg
1.6 => 107 => 133
2.4 => 160 => 200
Crit
2.6 => 174 => 217
3 => 201 => 251

Test results

15/30 crit, 50% (sample extremely small, but just looking for patterns here, not exact rates)

Non-crit range 143-195 (15)
Crit range 228-251 (15)
9 of the 15 crits for 251, tiny amount but still looks like usual crit cap stuff

Total melee crit rate was 30% over 600 hits



So looks like Evisceration crits are very heavily affected, even more than the regular hits.

Also, I'm done testing on these mobs, I technically have Rampage on BST but lv64 isn't exactly going to wear the best gear, plus I can feel bits of my brain leaking out of my ears so I'm gonna go do something else, anything for awhile.

[BRP]

ALRIGHT GUYS LISTEN, THIS MUST BE DONE.


NO SERIOUS. ESPECIALLY YOU BERCUS.


We print out that picture of the mithra and we bring it with us to the next interview. And show them that picture and say "WTF is THIS SHIT?!".

[Gere]

ALRIGHT GUYS LISTEN, THIS MUST BE DONE.


NO SERIOUS. ESPECIALLY YOU BERCUS.


We print out that picture of the mithra and we bring it with us to the next interview. And show them that picture and say "WTF is THIS SHIT?!".

Methinks you're in the wrong topic.

[BRP]

I am! Fuck...

[Retrieving/C.D/Searain]

These tests are somewhat pointless for TP gain, but very interesting for Rampage. Right now I use Potent Belt and Sniper, but if I switched to Warwolf and a Dex ring I can hit this magic 120.

Come on Bagel, it's obviously just a placebo effect and we're all victims of a collective hallucination! Alkycuisses fo' life yo.

Beware the evil emissaries of the church of DEXtology, they're gonna eat your babies and make the prices and relevance of your multi-millionaire STR gear plummet like there's no tomorrow!

Dude, you are seriously just a moron. Maybe if you actually read people's posts instead of saying, "I didn't read your post but I am going to insult it anyways." You just make yourself look stupid in half your posts and Rk makes you look even dumber in his rebuttals. Give up.

How tiring...

I believe you're the clueless one here because no one on this thread has proven either side wrong so far (while Naga's tests could somehow back up my statements, to some extent) and no, I don't pretend to be right at any cost like the aforementioned posters, I'm actually looking forward to see the data of new tests and I'm glad that this debate drew attention so we can eventually solve this riddle (although, in any case, this isn't going to change anyone's playing experience, doing 20-30 more average damage on your WS is hardly ground-breaking, lol and would most likely have noticeable benefits only for BRD-less parties and for Sushi users using particular gear set-up's), however it's still the experience of people that consider DEX builds effective in certain situations, for multi-hit WS, Vs the experience of people that laugh at the sight of a Thunder Ring but none of them brought conclusive proofs to the table.

The reasons why I started skipping part of some people's immature, mean and unpleasant replies have nothing to do with the subject discussed in this thread so stop derailing and feel free to go out and test Rampage/Vorpal by yourself if you want to prove me (and others) wrong, honestly I have better things to do with my time than WS'ing LV1 rabbits for 8hrs straight just to prevail in some ridicolous internet argument. I did a few small tests in the past and I've accumulated enough experience in the last 3 years, playing as Warrior for 95% of my playtime but all I can give you are a few advices, take em as you wish, feel free to question them if you want, I doubt there's a sample size large enough to convince stubborn people that refuse to listen anyway and trust me, I will still sleep at night even if you decide not to believe me.

You can go back to sucking RKenshin's dick now.