dex/crit relation, WS crits, WS gorgets discussion

[Nagamaki]

For all those WS, I beat the mob down until it was low enough for 1 hit kill. That sometimes lead to the mob dying directly before I could WS (a crit on a Clipper at 25% = dead clipper, but since the 1st hit on Rampage is half damage, I needed them around 10% or less to be sure they died from 1st hit. Sometimes the mob did survive the 1st hit, I disregarded any such results since there would be overlap in the damage ranges of various combinations (2 non-crit, 1crit 1 nc, 2 crit).

A few of times with Rampage the 1st hit missed (so 1% tp return), I still counted those although I separated them in the tally. It happened 6 times out of all the Rampages, which makes for a completely pathetic sample size but when it did happen, it was following the pattern of the test during which it happened.

I really, really doubt that the crit rate would vary between hits, there would be no logical justification for this. There's a simple gameplay reason behind many WS having variable (or static, not equal to 1) fTP for the 1st hit whereas every extra hit has a fTP of 1. Offhand hits and DAs/TAs already boost WS quite a bit, but if the fTP of extra hits wasn't a static 1, then you would see absolutely ridiculous damage going on.

Aside from fTP and the guaranteed crit from SA (or Assassin TA), extra hits behave the same as regular hits of the same WS, I have yet to see any real evidence otherwise.

[Genosync]

attn: I'll have my cap around... probably the end of April.

I'll do some extreme detail testing on everything. 'cause I really wanna know about what it does to other stats too.

[Nagamaki]

I'm starting to stray pretty far from anything related to Maat's cap with some tests I'm doing, but some of the crit tests inspired me to do a different set of tests on Al'taieu gorgets. Maybe it should be a new thread but there's like 20 old threads about gorgets already, so would be redundant or necro.

I've already found out a few things with testing, but I'm not satisfied with them being solid enough for the most part so I'd like to ask anyone who did actual tests with them before to post here. The fTP + 0.1 and acc bonus on the 1st hit of a WS part has been tested more than enough that nobody should be disputing that, but the effect on acc/dmg of hits beside the first as well as rumored effect on pdif are things I haven't seen any information real information/test data about.

So, does anyone have concrete test data on those aspects?

[aurik]

I've already found out a few things with testing, but I'm not satisfied with them being solid enough for the most part so I'd like to ask anyone who did actual tests with them before to post here. The fTP + 0.1 and acc bonus on the 1st hit of a WS part has been tested more than enough that nobody should be disputing that, but the effect on acc/dmg of hits beside the first as well as rumored effect on pdif are things I haven't seen any information real information/test data about.

So, does anyone have concrete test data on those aspects?

"rumored effect on pdif" was extrapolated from Ruke's low-attack samurai WS tests, if that helps you search for them.

[Appie]

Well, I was going to suggest a simple test for that, but its already been answered.

If Ridill+Kraken will never swing more than 8 times in a single round regardless of misses, then I think it is fairly reasonable to say that the "8 hit" limit is actually a "8 swings" limit, and that it would apply to WS the same way it does to regular melee rounds.

As far as observing this in the actual WS, if DAs could support AF by compensating for missing, MNK/WAR would have a significantly better average hit count on AF than MNK/NIN, all other factors the same. My experience says this is not the case. MNK/WAR avg dmg is obviously better on things with non-trivial def, but hit ratio is the same.

Well, guess I'm off to buy a Merman's Earring for my Asurans then. Long live windower macros.

and more inventory pwned ; ; GB7 please!

[Zirk]

Edited topic title to reflect what the thread was more focused on.

[Nagamaki]

I tried a bunch of search term combinations and directly on his lj, but I can't find that Steelshell data anywhere. If someone remembers the thread/location this data was posted, please toss me a link.

I did however find some questions about gorgets I'll be able to give definitely answers to soon.

[aurik]

I tried a bunch of search term combinations and directly on his lj, but I can't find that Steelshell data anywhere. If someone remembers the thread/location this data was posted, please toss me a link.

I did however find some questions about gorgets I'll be able to give definitely answers to soon.

it was in a gekko/yuki/kasha argument, around mid-nov 2006.

[Zirk]

There were tests done on steelshells with defender up and so forth that weren't done by Ruke, but they were in some thread which was either about or got derailed into yuki vs. gekko vs. kasha, not sure if that's what you are thinking about.

[Zirk]

omg aurik

[Thitaubian]

I tried a bunch of search term combinations and directly on his lj, but I can't find that Steelshell data anywhere. If someone remembers the thread/location this data was posted, please toss me a link.

I did however find some questions about gorgets I'll be able to give definitely answers to soon.

Ruke and Aurik were talking about this here, but can't find tests of no gorget.
Aurik did some math that seemd to imply that the gorgets add 0.1 to pdif.

Edit: Geez I'm slow

[Kyreth]

Interesting results to say the least, what I'm curious about is if those results only apply on the mobs you tested it on. If the "crit tier" is based on the difference of your DEX with the mobs AGI (or something, just throwing some ideas in). If so, the DEX 118 "crit tier" would not apply on mobs with a higher AGI.

S-E seems to be fond of "stat vs. stat" calculations- that there'd be some sort of "My DEX higher than your AGI" crit % calculation doesn't strike me as odd.

What'd be interesting is slapping the birds with something like AGI down and seeing if that upped critical % rates, all other things being equal.

[Evelyn]

you mean like with frost? I thought I've seen tests where it only affected evasion rates, not crit rates

[Naramaska]

Aurik did some math that seemd to imply that the gorgets add 0.1 to pdif.

I was the one who did those, results can be seen here:

http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php? ... 41#1693441

[aurik]

Aurik did some math that seemd to imply that the gorgets add 0.1 to pdif.

I was the one who did those, results can be seen here:

http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php? ... 41#1693441

Talking about a 0.1 bonus to pDIF, not to fTP.

[Thitaubian]

Aurik did some math that seemd to imply that the gorgets add 0.1 to pdif.

I was the one who did those, results can be seen here:

http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.php? ... 41#1693441

Wrong test. You tested ftp multiplier ... which many have done and everone keeps saying its ftp+0.1

What Auriks math was saying is that beyond this +0.1 added to ftp the gorgets also add 0.1 to pdif.
Pdif is a completely different value than ftp.
Since your attack was capped, and you were using ranged attacks, you also couldn't see if there is/isn't any changes to pdif by the gorgets.

I haven't found any test by anyone with the same gear/etc. with the only difference being gorget/no-gorget on mobs that attack is not capped against.

Edit: Aurik stop posting faster than me

[Cylo]

Practical implications?

For WAR: All I can think of right now is Hecatomb Mittens > Alkyoneus Brc.
Minuet Earring and other +Dex earrings are undervalued.
Hollow earring? Not so LOL.


Every other slot should have already had pretty much max dex on the ideal setup already (hecatomb, haidate).

[Naramaska]

That's what talking to IBM support hell for an hour does to my brain i guess \:D/

[RKenshin]

Ruke and Aurik were talking about this here, but can't find tests of no gorget.

Yeah, back then I meant to test the WS values with Berserk and another with no gorget and Defender in that thread, but I ran out of free time before the vacation I was on ended.

S-E seems to be fond of "stat vs. stat" calculations- that there'd be some sort of "My DEX higher than your AGI" crit % calculation doesn't strike me as odd.

I think its been generally accepted for a while that your critical hit-rate is determined by your DEX versus the mob's AGI. I've never seen actual mathematical equations and the like to support it, but there is some evidence available that does in a sense. IE, high/capped critical hit-rates on weak mobs and extremely low critical hit-rates on HNMs.

[barber2006]

I rarely post (heck I've made up 4 accounts over the past couple of years because I can't remember my passwords in between posts) but I have read this thread from start to finish and am just wondering why nobody has tried this in ballista.

Granted I don't do ballista, so I don't know the 'rules' it plays by. However, it would be easy to manipulate the targets AGI to see the role DEX vs. AGI plays (or DEX vs. whatever). With a couple of mages doing some outside curing and a low damage weapon you could autoattack and simply sit back and collect the results I would think. Throw in a target 5 levels lower and adjust equipment to give him the same stats as the original target and you could even see if level difference plays a role.

Anyway, suggesting something I have no experiance in may not be wise, but it seems that if all other things are equal then it would be the perfect testing ground for something like this.