dex/crit relation, WS crits, WS gorgets discussion

[Beckwin]

abs-dex/abs-agi > abs-tp now?

I was SOOOOOOOO right about Regalia's thunder ring. Just for fun, ask nightwind if he has any regalia party parses left on his computer.

uh I don't really talk to nightwind

Xno: I was more or less being sarcastic. Also, I'm at 68+11 dex right now in my tp build lololol (haub+1 and rajas).

[geno]

I come bearing parse statistics! Get your DEX merits ready!
The subject: Bastilla - RidillWAR75/NIN37, 4x Crit merits, Hume - Base 69 DEX


Normal Gearset (control):
http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/7651/controlaf7.jpg
DEX+27, Using meat.
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4...olparsebs2.jpg
Parsed Crit rate: 12.42%

Gearset#2:
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/4950/40dexpc5.jpg
DEX+40, Using meat.
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3...exparseym3.jpg
Parsed Crit rate: 15.86%

Gearset#3:
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/9770/46dexpf4.jpg
DEX+49, Using sushi.
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/6...exparsevm8.jpg
Parsed Crit rate: 24.04%



In conclusion, clearly there is something to be made of the power of DEX! The difference of 13 DEX between the control gearset, and gearset #2 really made no noticeable gains. But then only 9 DEX is added between that and gearset #3, and a massive 8+% increase in Crit% comes out. This definitely supports a tier theory. As for the exact amount of dex needed to break this tier, we will likely test tomorrow. We can try with +43, and +46 and other combos until we find the exact number. I wonder if this type of setup makes the idea of DEX merits so farfetched? Using DEX merits to break the tier without having to sacrifice an extra piece of Haste or Attack/Accuracy gear might be incredibly good. Either way, I'm looking forward to testing this a bit more 8)

edit: Forgot to note, all of these parses were done in Thickets colibiri camp, 2 of them from the same party. Bast restarted his parse when he changed gearsets, and Nikko (Ninja) didn't. In the end, Nikko's parse put Bast over halfway between the two DEX sets, closer to the second, which definitely supports the accuracy of the parse. The first parse is not the same party, but the one we had last night instead. Because crit rate shouldn't be affected by other party members (SAM/RNG in second parse for DRG/SAM in first parse. Weaver and Minzara were power levels) or conditions (outside of the obvious Mighty strikes or DEX etudes etc.), the crit rate should still be taken with the same weight it would if it was all with the exact same party.

Also, the DMG done shouldn't be looked at as much as the crit percent, because that was the main variable we were testing. There are obviously things he/we could have been doing to boost his percent with the different builds (such as switching to 2xMinuet 2xMarch instead of 2xMinuet 1xMarch 1xMadrigal)

edit #2:Another thing I just remembered I should note, testing a coupletely different thing simultaneously (though I think it was also argued in this thread). In the original, control gearset, Bast would wear AF2 pants for his Vorpal Blades. In both of the next two, he tried Byakko's haidate instead. He changed nothing else about his WS gear. In both of those parses, even the one with sushi, the average WS dmg of Vorpal Blade were slightly higher than the average WS dmg of AF2 pants. Just an interesting thing to look at, the main point of this parse was to test the DEX theory, so this is just a side-test. Its completely unaffected by the TP-gear DEX changes aside from the food change.

[rithridan]

Interesting results to say the least, what I'm curious about is if those results only apply on the mobs you tested it on. If the "crit tier" is based on the difference of your DEX with the mobs AGI (or something, just throwing some ideas in). If so, the DEX 118 "crit tier" would not apply on mobs with a higher AGI.

[Demitrius]

This could be something huge. Could completely change the way a lot of people gear up in endgame parties. The best part is that I think during xp I can break that tier if I use all my dex gear. In fact, I could probably get significantly past it. Let me think...

Osode +10
AF+1 Hands +6
Rajas +5
Warwolf +5
Haidate +15
Unji +4
AF2 Feet +7 (at night)

That would put me at 70+52 before food. Could pile on sushi to get to +58, and borrow my THF friend's Thunder Ring for +63. I'll try to bug someone to come merit with me later.

[Blackice]

What you all seem to be missing during this little orgasmfest for DEX builds and crit rate is that Haste/Attack/Acc setup while eating meat will still out preform/out parse these DEX builds. Yes you might have a 30% crit rate but the guy next to you is still hitting harder and faster. These DEX builds just aren't practical unfortunately.

[Starr]

This is really interesting, can't believe it's taken this many years to figure out though, like Jumps having a VIT modifier only recently being found out.

So what we know now is crit hit% is capped at 20%, 24% with 4 merits, 30% using a crit+6% weapon (NOT NIN or THF with offhand with less/no +crit, it would be less then).

[Demitrius]

What you all seem to be missing during this little orgasmfest for DEX builds and crit rate is that Haste/Attack/Acc setup while eating meat will still out preform/out parse these DEX builds. Yes you might have a 30% crit rate but the guy next to you is still hitting harder and faster. These DEX builds just aren't practical unfortunately.

I was just posting to try it in maximum DEX just to see if the crit rate would keep going up after it hits this threshold, or if that's a soft cap with a massive bonus. Maybe there's another tier at 148 or something? Until a few days ago I doubt many people knew about this, so I just want to figure out as much as possible about it before we lay it to rest.

That said, there's no way this information doesn't have a practical purpose. If you use adaberk + rajas + haidate, you're already sitting on +30 dex. At the very least, people might tweak their macros to break the tier on Rampage, whose variation is entirely based on critical hits. Only need a couple of pieces of Heca in there to break it, even with meat.

[Sylphet]

Geno,

While the parse results are interesting and show a nice difference in the crit rate with the different builds/food, is that really the number that we should be caring about? In all of those builds, Bastilla ended up doing ~40% of the total damage. His crit rate may have doubled but his damage output was substantially lower, ultimately resulting in the same relative amount of damage. So what does the DEX really matter if it ultimately doesn't improve your performance significantly over a more typical build?

[Alastaire]

Geno,

While the parse results are interesting and show a nice difference in the crit rate with the different builds/food, is that really the number that we should be caring about? In all of those builds, Bastilla ended up doing ~40% of the total damage. His crit rate may have doubled but his damage output was substantially lower, ultimately resulting in the same relative amount of damage. So what does the DEX really matter if it ultimately doesn't improve your performance significantly over a more typical build?

Using a build like that for WS that are strongly based on crits?

[Xno]

Geno,

While the parse results are interesting and show a nice difference in the crit rate with the different builds/food, is that really the number that we should be caring about? In all of those builds, Bastilla ended up doing ~40% of the total damage. His crit rate may have doubled but his damage output was substantially lower, ultimately resulting in the same relative amount of damage. So what does the DEX really matter if it ultimately doesn't improve your performance significantly over a more typical build?

Its on the discovery state right now

1°) we need more test for confirmation ( more mobs , more test with different DEX)

2°) we need to optimize our stuff regarding this discovery

and after the parse should raise

+ crit build is situational i would say , when your hit are really lower than you crit hit , this build would be better

[Ferien]

What you all seem to be missing during this little orgasmfest for DEX builds and crit rate is that Haste/Attack/Acc setup while eating meat will still out preform/out parse these DEX builds. Yes you might have a 30% crit rate but the guy next to you is still hitting harder and faster. These DEX builds just aren't practical unfortunately.

If it is indeed tiered, it's still possible to keep a substantial amount of Haste/Attack/Acc on you at the same time. If these tests show anything, it's that a setup which properly balances DEX along with Haste, Attack, and Accuracy may outperform the current builds.

[Nagamaki]

The idea here isn't to replace existing gear choice logic, but rather to give a more accurate idea of how much DEX is needed to make a significant change in crit rate in a specific situation.

If you're fighting something and based on its level and stats, getting +5 DEX over your "basic" build will give you a big increase in crit rate, then simple gear swaps can give you that with minimal loss in other departments. If in another situation, you know you'd need to stack on 40 more DEX to get a similar result, then obviously the sacrifice in other stats will completely cancel out the gain, and in fact cause a major net loss of damage.

Full DEX builds aren't going to suddenly become the best, gaining 10% crit rate is cool but unless your pdif was terrible (in which case crits do many times as much damage as regular hits), that 10% extra crits won't be increasing your damage enough to overtake what sacrificed haste/att/acc would give.

Anyway, thanks to some retarded (work)server issues I had no work this morning, so here's the result of some free time:

The target mobs are still Tav Sheep and Miner Bees, all tests using the same gear except for the indicated changes. Weapon used is Faith Baghs for the most swings per amount of time. Like yesterday, tests are on roughly 300 swings (basically a full stack of stones and a few extra mobs)


69 DEX (Elv MNK/THF base)
9.3%

89 DEX (Byakko's, Rajas)
21.2%

105 DEX (Byakko's, Rajas, Osode, Squid)
23.9%

100 DEX (Byakko's, Rajas, Thunder, Squid)
23.7%


So looking at those numbers, on these TW things, there is a HUGE increase in crit rate between 69 and 89 DEX. This increase keeps going until some point, presumably at or slightly below 100, where the rate hits its natural 20% cap (+4 merits). Going above 100 DEX doesn't do anything.

Other tests seemed to indicate needing a bunch more DEX than that for VT mobs, although not as much more as one would expect if you needed to get double the target's stats. So something like "get your DEX to mobAGI+X" seems like a more likely theory (I put AGI there cause that's the popular theory, but I don't know for sure, it could be VIT, pure level, whatever).

[Blackice]

Geno,

While the parse results are interesting and show a nice difference in the crit rate with the different builds/food, is that really the number that we should be caring about? In all of those builds, Bastilla ended up doing ~40% of the total damage. His crit rate may have doubled but his damage output was substantially lower, ultimately resulting in the same relative amount of damage. So what does the DEX really matter if it ultimately doesn't improve your performance significantly over a more typical build?

Using a build like that for WS that are strongly based on crits?

Using a build like that for WS would only really pull ahead when you're lacking attack. (Taken from Lhexh) When you're eating sushi and lacking attack your pdif will be closer to 1.0 so crits will basically be doing 2x dmg. When eating meat in an attack build with 2 minuets you're most likely capped on Attack for a merit mob thus your crits are only doing about 50% more dmg. So stacking a DEX build will actually end up giving you less damage total on each hit less than if you had a strong STR build for the WS.

[Sidanoir]

Seemed like set 2 yielded best results? Or not even fights to be sure....

I guess now what people can say about kitty pants is their affect on your crit rate depends on what tier they put you in?

[Lhexh]

This raises a few interesting questions for both crit-WS and TPing options. Back in my more noobish days I used to TP as WAR in thickets in +41 Dex and I never exceeded 12% crit rate on any of the parses. I run with 3 lower base DEX as an Elvaan, but at the same time we can assume the mobs at mamool ja have higher base stats than Greater Colibiri, so we end up with each camp possible having a different required DEX to break the tier which makes race actually fairly significant. A Mithra WAR might need only make a change to a single Thunder Ring at a specific camp to hit a tier where as an Elvaan would need to change a few other slots to reach that same tier making it no longer feasable.

One other thing pops into my mind which I'm confused about. I've read a lot on both sides about whether or not it's possible to crit on a WS that doesn't have crit in it's descriptions and I don't think its been proven either way whether its possible or not. If in fact you cannot crit on a normal WS how can we say with any certainty that DEX even affects crit WS and that TP isnt the only affect whatsoever. I wonder about this because again back in my noobish days my Rampage macro had +51 dex in it and my Rampage average marginally went up when I aquired AF2 pants. My 66+51 dex should have at last been hitting the 15-16% crit tier so AF2 pants should have actually hurt my WS average instead of been a marginal increase.

[Demitrius]

Looks like it's dependent upon your DEX - mob's AGI or VIT. If it's VIT it's easy to check, but is there an easy way to check for a mob's AGI?

[Ferien]

One other thing pops into my mind which I'm confused about. I've read a lot on both sides about whether or not it's possible to crit on a WS that doesn't have crit in it's descriptions and I don't think its been proven either way whether its possible or not. If in fact you cannot crit on a normal WS how can we say with any certainty that DEX even affects crit WS and that TP isnt the only affect whatsoever.

If you weren't able to crit on a normal WS, stacking SA with WS wouldn't work. Any WS that SA affects can potentially crit.

[Nagamaki]

Crits aren't as effective with high pdif as with low, but they're still not entirely useless. Also, meat/sushi and gear aren't exactly the only variables that determine pdif, you're not going to get capped attack on non-trivial targets without heavily stacked attack buffs, which isn't possible in all situations.

Minuet+Berserk do a lot more to cap someone's attack than say Shura vs Osode, or even high cap attack food.

Crits aren't going to make a big difference on most things when you have 2 BRDs and Berserk, but I can't fit 2 BRDs into 3man assault or tank without taking quite a bit more dmg when /WAR.


As for the critical WS argument, that can be tested relatively easily, if very time consumingly since it'll take a long time to get enough WS data for a reasonably accurate rate. Since WAR can always DA, Jin would probably be the best test WS using NIN/THF (or NIN/notWAR) and mobs that are weak enough to guarantee rate cap without being so weak they might die before every hit lands. Any WS that doesn't return full TP would be ruled out. It would be worth testing using Senj/Fudo vs same dmg but no crit ktn as well.

I could theoretically go test that on NIN, but I think I'll let someone else do it

[Sidanoir]

Jin is a crit hit WS is it not? I haven't played NIN in so long..

I think the question is do ws without chance of crit varies with TP have the ability to crit...

My guess is yes they do..... and that WS like rampage simply add more of a chance for it to happen.

[Ferien]

As for the critical WS argument, that can be tested relatively easily, if very time consumingly since it'll take a long time to get enough WS data for a reasonably accurate rate. Since WAR can always DA, Jin would probably be the best test WS using NIN/THF (or NIN/notWAR) and mobs that are weak enough to guarantee rate cap without being so weak they might die before every hit lands. Any WS that doesn't return full TP would be ruled out. It would be worth testing using Senj/Fudo vs same dmg but no crit ktn as well.

I could theoretically go test that on NIN, but I think I'll let someone else do it

It'd be easier to do with a single-hit WS. Retribution and Spirit Taker come to mind for me, mainly because I solo'd my WAR's Eldieme key on PLD/THF with Staff, and I had both WSes occasionally do near-double damage. Both also stack with Sneak Attack.