dex/crit relation, WS crits, WS gorgets discussion

[VZX]

Elv NIN75/nothing AGI = 55 (wow that's fucking horrible, anyway moving on)
Elv RNG37/nothing AGI = 34

IIRC, Studio Gobli also list mobs having subjob.. though they can have a weird one like PLD/PLD

[Chupunpupun]

Hey Geno, can you try parsing on mamools/trolls/etc? I think colibri are just soft targets and stacking DEX on them are more viable then on other EXP mobs.

[Keno]

U/U. This has already been shown to parse equally if not higher than S/F

don't go bringing that into this discussion

I didnt mention that to hold a grudge about it or anything I was just saying it in case people said something like "but look at the base damage on those weapons, your dps will suck"... Regardless if it's better, equal or worse to S/F, it's similar is all I was saying.

[Beckwin]

Hey Geno, can you try parsing on mamools/trolls/etc? I think colibri are just soft targets and stacking DEX on them are more viable then on other EXP mobs.

If its a dex v. agi check, I'd think Colibri are middle of the road or higher. They seem to be pretty evasive mobs and I don't think they are THF or anything. Mamool THF and maybe NIN are more evasive, but the rest seem <= colibris. Trolls may be even less evasive (MNKs and PUPs excluded, possibly RNG for naturally high AGI, but PLD DRK RDM would probably check pretty low).

[Celeras]

What you all seem to be missing during this little orgasmfest for DEX builds and crit rate is that Haste/Attack/Acc setup while eating meat will still out preform/out parse these DEX builds. Yes you might have a 30% crit rate but the guy next to you is still hitting harder and faster. These DEX builds just aren't practical unfortunately.

Crits are fun though

[Blackice]

Hey Geno, can you try parsing on mamools/trolls/etc? I think colibri are just soft targets and stacking DEX on them are more viable then on other EXP mobs.

If its a dex v. agi check, I'd think Colibri are middle of the road or higher. They seem to be pretty evasive mobs and I don't think they are THF or anything. Mamool THF and maybe NIN are more evasive, but the rest seem <= colibris. Trolls may be even less evasive (MNKs and PUPs excluded, possibly RNG for naturally high AGI, but PLD DRK RDM would probably check pretty low).

I'm sorry, but Colibri aren't even close to being evasive at all unless you're seriously lacking ACC. I've always eaten meat at that camp and maintained 85-88% ACC.

[Bagel]

These tests are somewhat pointless for TP gain, but very interesting for Rampage. Right now I use Potent Belt and Sniper, but if I switched to Warwolf and a Dex ring I can hit this magic 120.

[Ferien]

Hey Geno, can you try parsing on mamools/trolls/etc? I think colibri are just soft targets and stacking DEX on them are more viable then on other EXP mobs.

If its a dex v. agi check, I'd think Colibri are middle of the road or higher. They seem to be pretty evasive mobs and I don't think they are THF or anything. Mamool THF and maybe NIN are more evasive, but the rest seem <= colibris. Trolls may be even less evasive (MNKs and PUPs excluded, possibly RNG for naturally high AGI, but PLD DRK RDM would probably check pretty low).

Evasion and AGI aren't necessarily correlated, especially on beastmen. MNK has fairly high evasion, but mid-range AGI. RNG has very high AGI, but terrible evasion. Troll PLDs and DRKs would probably be easier to crit than the Colibri (if it's checked against AGI) since they're lower level, and PLD and DRK's AGI is horrendous (41 AGI as no-sub Elvaan PLD75, and Nagamaki thought his NIN's was bad).

[Beckwin]

Hey Geno, can you try parsing on mamools/trolls/etc? I think colibri are just soft targets and stacking DEX on them are more viable then on other EXP mobs.

If its a dex v. agi check, I'd think Colibri are middle of the road or higher. They seem to be pretty evasive mobs and I don't think they are THF or anything. Mamool THF and maybe NIN are more evasive, but the rest seem <= colibris. Trolls may be even less evasive (MNKs and PUPs excluded, possibly RNG for naturally high AGI, but PLD DRK RDM would probably check pretty low).

I'm sorry, but Colibri aren't even close to being evasive at all unless you're seriously lacking ACC. I've always eaten meat at that camp and maintained 85-88% ACC.

....with madrigal; possibly dropping some haste for acc. k. Sorry if I overexaggerated Colibri evasion at all, but I guess my point is that they aren't like Mire mobs that you can parse 90%+ with meat and 30 acc. I'm also suggesting that quite a few beastmen could very well have lower AGI, based on their similar level to Colibri and Job (pld drk bst drg whm rdm blm etc.)

Ferien: yeah, I know AGI isn't a solid indicator of class evasion rating, but its sort of a trend I guess. Also (correct me if I'm wrong) isn't it generally accepted that AGI influences evasion? Similar to the 2 dex yielding 1 acc deal. I know Ninjas love SKote for solo and I think its for more than just the boost to parry procs (my nin is 66 and I don't really solo yet, so I can't say for sure).

[Ferien]

Well, yea, it influences evasion, but it's like STR-Attack and VIT-Defense; while the base stat influences the secondary one, one cannot be assumed from the other. Beastmen's stats vary the same as ours do, so you end up with RNGs with massive AGI and terrible evasion, and MNKs with massive VIT and poor defense (and high evasion with mediocre AGI, per this discussion).

It's probably a better check on non-beastmen, but then there are differences based on mob type as well.

[Retrieving/C.D/Searain]

These tests are somewhat pointless for TP gain, but very interesting for Rampage. Right now I use Potent Belt and Sniper, but if I switched to Warwolf and a Dex ring I can hit this magic 120.

Come on Bagel, it's obviously just a placebo effect and we're all victims of a collective hallucination! Alkycuisses fo' life yo. :P

Beware the evil emissaries of the church of DEXtology, they're gonna eat your babies and make the prices and relevance of your multi-millionaire STR gear plummet like there's no tomorrow!

[Nagamaki]

So is the lack of any response to my question about ranged crits because people have no idea, or for some other reason?

Like I mentionned, if crit mod gear does apply to ranged crit, you could confirm if crit mod gear affects crit-by-TP WS crit rate very very quickly.

[Beckwin]

Umm, are you talking about +crit%/enhances crit rate gear or stacking base stats?

I've always thought/hoped that ranged crit rate was related to AGI, but thats based off of absolutely nothing rly.

[RKenshin]

These tests are somewhat pointless for TP gain, but very interesting for Rampage. Right now I use Potent Belt and Sniper, but if I switched to Warwolf and a Dex ring I can hit this magic 120.

Come on Bagel, it's obviously just a placebo effect and we're all victims of a collective hallucination! Alkycuisses fo' life yo.

Beware the evil emissaries of the church of DEXtology, they're gonna eat your babies and make the prices and relevance of your multi-millionaire STR gear plummet like there's no tomorrow!

Have you not been reading the other posts? I guess I shouldn't be surprised?

The current test results posted by other people in this thread are showing evidence that DEX and +Critical hit-rate in no way have an affect on how often you land a critical hit in any WS. If anything the evidence presented in this thread is proving that DEX just might be worthless for WS gear, and not worth anything more than the accuracy it provides. Oh, I wonder where I heard that before.

Three people now posted evidence that any WS that doesn't have critical hit-rate modified by TP, can't critical at all. Suggesting that your critical hit-rate and amount of DEX never factored into whether a WS can crit. It's still debatable on the effect for WSs that critical as enhanced by TP, and still debtable whether it's just the first hit that can't be effected by your critical rate, and both are being tested still. But regardless, current tests support it doesn't (although the evidence is small thusfar). Either way, nothing is 100% for sure yet in either direction.

But really, just look at Vaan's test. I of course mean no offense to Vaan at all as he's a well-geared MNK, but as he said he used that gear full time for melee and WS. His WS average is very low for a MNK/WAR on Colibri, despite him obviously being past the DEX tier. It's 658, and a MNK/WAR with normal gear and the BRD buffs he had at that camp would normally have an 800 or higher average, and I'm sure Vaan can confirm those WS averages too. Hell, the last MNK I PTed with there had a WS average of 980. My last PT on my 70 MNK even had an average of 630.

[Bagel]

WS average of 980.

WHAT NINE TH... oh nvm..

[Jaffar]

So is the lack of any response to my question about ranged crits because people have no idea, or for some other reason?

I vaguely remember a thread on rng allak. forums with thunder staff not effecting ranged crit %, done with a repeating xbow, but no longer have access to search over there.

[RKenshin]

I also remember reading that on KI Jaffar. I know for certain that ranged WS can't crit on their own though, but I always thought it was just for ranged WS. I guess it turns out it isn't though.

The thunder staff thing should be easy to verify regardless though. I don't think I'll have the time to try it, but if I do I'll post results.

[Zirk]

But really, just look at Vaan's test. I of course mean no offense to Vaan at all as he's a well-geared MNK, but as he said he used that gear full time for melee and WS. His WS average is very low for a MNK/WAR on Colibri, despite him obviously being past the DEX tier. It's 658, and a MNK/WAR with normal gear and the BRD buffs he had at that camp would normally have an 800 or higher average, and I'm sure Vaan can confirm those WS averages too. Hell, the last MNK I PTed with there had a WS average of 980. My last PT on my 70 MNK even had an average of 630.

AHHHHHHHH its FF12 release all over again!

[Rocl]

Vann
Like my mom's minivan but without the mini and with an extra N

[Tricen]

You are sneaky, Rocl.