PLD vs WAR vs Stainslav vs Aurik vs Ryko

[aurik]

Ever try DD PLD? It outparses WARs (Without ridill)

lol

lololol.

As long as said PLD is equipped even decently, he's not kidding. Though he should have said without ridill or joyeuse I suppose.

Without ridill, joyeuse, or good gear you mean. Assuming equivalent effort in gear/merits, a war is gonna smash face, mainly because of zergressor, attack bonus, and haidate.

[Therin]

In regards to that comparison earlier it really depends on the WAR, but it's a horrible point anyway.

I bet you could level PUP to 75, go absolutely balls to wall on all the best gear, and outparse WARs too... Any job can outparse a WAR. Any job can even outparse a MNK/WAR... I have one parse of this poorly equiped DRK/WAR almost outparsing MNK/WAR in a 75 PT.

The only real fair comparison is outparsing a decked/knowledgable player of a certain job. While I do agree a decked out DD PLD can easily beat even most above average WARs (without a ridill) and most other jobs, it's not the same for decked out WARs in my experiences.

On the topic of Tiamat accuracy you'd have to be kidding if you think anyone would have a 10% hit-rate even with 0 accuracy. I have like no staff skill at all on NIN and I'll still parse at around 20-30% accuracy over the course of a Tiamat fight, which is horribly skewed considering you miss 100% of the time when Tiamat is in the air. So even with 0 skill and no acc/DEX gear I'd say you'd still be at about a 50% hit-rate.

It was just a way to explain to him what that sword could be used for lol
But a well geared PLD can always outparse lets say a DRG or scythe/gs DRK in a burn party

That DRK must be very poorly equipped or subbing THF. <_<

I'm on both sides of that argument. I've outparsed a lot of NINs, WARs, and MNKs as my PLD/NIN, yet these are normally pick-up ones, or ones without Haidate and full merits. Any well equipped WAR should be able to outparse a PLD/NIN.

On the other hand, I can easily outparse most non-Ridill WARs as my DRK/SAM. In fact, out of the last six WARs I've partied with on my DRK, the only one that has outparsed me was a fully merited, E. Body/Haidate WAR, and even then it wasn't even by 2%.

To further clarify, I do an asston more damage on my DRK than my PLD. Normally, though, I'm still able to get higher chains on my PLD because it fits very well in a party due to it's capabilities of curing and so on when the mages might need to rest (I will admit, DRKs are a serious drain on party resources while a PLD is definitely no such thing, since we can pretty much mainheal ourselves). Last party was 24k/hour at Colibri camp, capped at chain 182 (God, that place is excellent now that you don't have to fight stupid Bugards anymore).

[Stanislav]

In regards to that comparison earlier it really depends on the WAR, but it's a horrible point anyway.

I bet you could level PUP to 75, go absolutely balls to wall on all the best gear, and outparse WARs too... Any job can outparse a WAR. Any job can even outparse a MNK/WAR... I have one parse of this poorly equiped DRK/WAR almost outparsing MNK/WAR in a 75 PT.

The only real fair comparison is outparsing a decked/knowledgable player of a certain job. While I do agree a decked out DD PLD can easily beat even most above average WARs (without a ridill) and most other jobs, it's not the same for decked out WARs in my experiences.

On the topic of Tiamat accuracy you'd have to be kidding if you think anyone would have a 10% hit-rate even with 0 accuracy. I have like no staff skill at all on NIN and I'll still parse at around 20-30% accuracy over the course of a Tiamat fight, which is horribly skewed considering you miss 100% of the time when Tiamat is in the air. So even with 0 skill and no acc/DEX gear I'd say you'd still be at about a 50% hit-rate.

It was just a way to explain to him what that sword could be used for lol
But a well geared PLD can always outparse lets say a DRG or scythe/gs DRK in a burn party

That DRK must be very poorly equipped or subbing THF. <_<

I'm on both sides of that argument. I've outparsed a lot of NINs, WARs, and MNKs as my PLD/NIN, yet these are normally pick-up ones, or ones without Haidate and full merits. Any well equipped WAR should be able to outparse a PLD/NIN.

On the other hand, I can easily outparse most non-Ridill WARs as my DRK/SAM. In fact, out of the last six WARs I've partied with on my DRK, the only one that has outparsed me was a fully merited, E. Body/Haidate WAR, and even then it wasn't even by 2%.

To further clarify, I do an asston more damage on my DRK than my PLD. Normally, though, I'm still able to get higher chains on my PLD because it fits very well in a party due to it's capabilities of curing and so on when the mages might need to rest (I will admit, DRKs are a serious drain on party resources while a PLD is definitely no such thing, since we can pretty much mainheal ourselves). Last party was 24k/hour at Colibri camp, capped at chain 182 (God, that place is excellent now that you don't have to fight stupid Bugards anymore).

Depends what you do on DRK in PT. I hate my WAR mainly cause I hate engaging and swinging so lately I been meriting on DRK/NIN with manetaer/ridill .. doing up to 1300 rampage without soul eater and up to 2k with souleater and the only time I am a drain on my party is when I do souleater heh, but then again only PT with linkshell members so dont have to worry about RDM that can't keep up.

[Ryko]

Ever try DD PLD? It outparses WARs (Without ridill)

lol

lololol.

As long as said PLD is equipped even decently, he's not kidding. Though he should have said without ridill or joyeuse I suppose.

Without ridill, joyeuse, or good gear you mean. Assuming equivalent effort in gear/merits, a war is gonna smash face, mainly because of zergressor, attack bonus, and haidate.

Negative, I was basing it off both people just going straight off the auction house. Haubergeon +1 / Dusk gear may not be elite, but it serves just the same purpose as homam would for a PLD and affording them the same gear is about as equivalent as you can get. I'd call that rather equivalent, the PLD can make up some-most the loss of no aggressor with higher skill and the fact that a suppa actually does more than just make them attack faster. When we start throwing in things like haidate, homam gear, hecatomb, etc it starts to lean towards the WAR until you get to a ridill, at which point the PLD is smoked. This also doesn't account for the fact that a justice sword is infinitely easier to get than a ridill is.

Don't take my word for it, not like I TP burned my PLD to 75 or anything.

[Therin]

Don't take my word for it, not like I TP burned my PLD to 75 or anything.

Or got the better part of 230 merits on it, like me.

By the way, what emote is it that Dracu is doing for the "C" in your sig?

[Ryko]

It's MS painted together, It's zeid trying to reach for his great sword and a galka reaching to the right.

Edit: left*

[aurik]

When we start throwing in things like haidate, homam gear, hecatomb, etc it starts to lean towards the WAR .

Without ridill, joyeuse, or good gear you mean.

[Ryko]

When we start throwing in things like haidate, homam gear, hecatomb, etc it starts to lean towards the WAR .

Without ridill, joyeuse, or good gear you mean.

Assuming equivalent effort in gear/merits, a war is gonna smash face

Like I said, it's equivalent and dusk gear doesn't exactly suck. Hecatomb's good gear, doesn't make the WAR pull ahead. The joyeuse wouldn't necessarily do it either if both had it available to them and last I checked, if lacking haidate made a job suck, your monk wasn't worth a damn for a long ass time. (Yes I know you made up for it with af2 pants but you of all people shouldn't randomly talk down upon other DD jobs for lacking them)

[Marsala]

In regards to that comparison earlier it really depends on the WAR, but it's a horrible point anyway.

I bet you could level PUP to 75, go absolutely balls to wall on all the best gear, and outparse WARs too... Any job can outparse a WAR. Any job can even outparse a MNK/WAR... I have one parse of this poorly equiped DRK/WAR almost outparsing MNK/WAR in a 75 PT.

The only real fair comparison is outparsing a decked/knowledgable player of a certain job. While I do agree a decked out DD PLD can easily beat even most above average WARs (without a ridill) and most other jobs, it's not the same for decked out WARs in my experiences.

On the topic of Tiamat accuracy you'd have to be kidding if you think anyone would have a 10% hit-rate even with 0 accuracy. I have like no staff skill at all on NIN and I'll still parse at around 20-30% accuracy over the course of a Tiamat fight, which is horribly skewed considering you miss 100% of the time when Tiamat is in the air. So even with 0 skill and no acc/DEX gear I'd say you'd still be at about a 50% hit-rate.

It was just a way to explain to him what that sword could be used for lol
But a well geared PLD can always outparse lets say a DRG or scythe/gs DRK in a burn party

That DRK must be very poorly equipped or subbing THF. <_<

I'm on both sides of that argument. I've outparsed a lot of NINs, WARs, and MNKs as my PLD/NIN, yet these are normally pick-up ones, or ones without Haidate and full merits. Any well equipped WAR should be able to outparse a PLD/NIN.

On the other hand, I can easily outparse most non-Ridill WARs as my DRK/SAM. In fact, out of the last six WARs I've partied with on my DRK, the only one that has outparsed me was a fully merited, E. Body/Haidate WAR, and even then it wasn't even by 2%.

To further clarify, I do an asston more damage on my DRK than my PLD. Normally, though, I'm still able to get higher chains on my PLD because it fits very well in a party due to it's capabilities of curing and so on when the mages might need to rest (I will admit, DRKs are a serious drain on party resources while a PLD is definitely no such thing, since we can pretty much mainheal ourselves). Last party was 24k/hour at Colibri camp, capped at chain 182 (God, that place is excellent now that you don't have to fight stupid Bugards anymore).

It's not just about who can outparse in a pt. It's about who can put out AND take the hate they dish out. It's all about effiency when it comes to not getting your face beaten when you lay down a 1k+ WS. Because if you get your face beat its gunna hurt the xp/hr cause you die when you can't take the hate. That being said WAR/NIN and MNK/NIN or anything else that can put out duel-wield style will remain the top DDs wanted for PTs because they are the most efficient. /SAM improved alot with seigan but its still very unreliable because you never know how many attacks it will absorb.

[Therin]

It's not just about who can outparse in a pt. It's about who can put out AND take the hate they dish out. It's all about effiency when it comes to not getting your face beaten when you lay down a 1k+ WS. Because if you get your face beat its gunna hurt the xp/hr cause you die when you can't take the hate. That being said WAR/NIN and MNK/NIN or anything else that can put out duel-wield style will remain the top DDs wanted for PTs because they are the most efficient. /SAM improved alot with seigan but its still very unreliable because you never know how many attacks it will absorb.

I wouldn't even bother comparing the two if I couldn't get 20k/hour on both jobs.

[aurik]

When we start throwing in things like haidate, homam gear, hecatomb, etc it starts to lean towards the WAR .

Without ridill, joyeuse, or good gear you mean.

Assuming equivalent effort in gear/merits, a war is gonna smash face

Like I said, it's equivalent and dusk gear doesn't exactly suck. Hecatomb's good gear, doesn't make the WAR pull ahead. The joyeuse wouldn't necessarily do it either if both had it available to them and last I checked, if lacking haidate made a job suck, your monk wasn't worth a damn for a long ass time. (Yes I know you made up for it with af2 pants but you of all people shouldn't randomly talk down upon other DD jobs for lacking them)

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm just pointing out that you're hedging your bet in "well if both DDs suck, PLD can hold its own". That's really an amazing revelation. I bet a DD whm could keep up with a walmart warrior given the right conditions.

As I said, zergressor is going to make the war pull ahead given equal gear. 12 skill (assuming our walmart paladin and warrior have access to suppa) isn't going to make up for the fact that maneater, which is a whopping 900k on the AH, has acc and attack on it while most swords generally don't. War also gets attack bonus and if I recall has higher base strength which makes up for the gulf in attack as well.

Then there's rampage which is essentially vorpal blade x 1.1, and the fact that warrior's meritable abilities actual enhance their ability to deal damage...

[Judai]

I'm a PLD and I have solid DD gear for it. My MNK, SAM and BLU will all crush it in exp. I even have merits in Sword from BLU.

Yes, PLD can beat a shitty geared DD. No, it will not come close to a well geared DD. Even then, the PLD has to be beyond decked out. Seriously, no shit an amazingly geared DD will beat an ok geared DD.

[Ryko]

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm just pointing out that you're hedging your bet in "well if both DDs suck, PLD can hold its own".

You put words in your own mouth. The only thing lacking in that example -is- haidate and you're still using the term "suck". It's not like I stacked the deck in the PLD's favor. If you want to get technical, the WAR does themself a disservice using a joytoy without fully meriting sword. Doing so means they can only put 4 merits into axe and you have a 277 skill (and 10 accuracy) versus a paladin sporting as high as a 304 skill.

That's really an amazing revelation. I bet a DD whm could keep up with a walmart warrior given the right conditions.

Once again, if lacking haidate makes something walmart, your monk was walmart for close to 2 years. Since we both know that isn't the case, no.

As I said, zergressor is going to make the war pull ahead given equal gear. 12 skill (assuming our walmart paladin and warrior have access to suppa) isn't going to make up for the fact that maneater, which is a whopping 900k on the AH, has acc and attack on it while most swords generally don't. War also gets attack bonus and if I recall has higher base strength which makes up for the gulf in attack as well.

It's a difference of 2 strength, I will give you the maneater thing, as long as you don't conveniently forget that the PLD has ridiculously easy access to 2 swords that double attack frequently, not just one.

Then there's rampage which is essentially vorpal blade x 1.1, and the fact that warrior's meritable abilities actual enhance their ability to deal damage...

Giving the warrior full zerk/aggressor merits, while I do believe is fair, is far from "equivalent". Words have meaning, aurik, don't get angry when your grasp on them isn't as firm as your grasp of numbers.

[aurik]

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm just pointing out that you're hedging your bet in "well if both DDs suck, PLD can hold its own".

You put words in your own mouth. The only thing lacking in that example -is- haidate and you're still using the term "suck". It's not like I stacked the deck in the PLD's favor. If you want to get technical, the WAR does themself a disservice using a joytoy without fully meriting sword. Doing so means they can only put 4 merits into axe and you have a 277 skill (and 10 accuracy) versus a paladin sporting as high as a 304 skill.

[quote:8eceb]That's really an amazing revelation. I bet a DD whm could keep up with a walmart warrior given the right conditions.

Once again, if lacking haidate makes something walmart, your monk was walmart for close to 2 years.
[/quote:8eceb]


Once again you're putting words in my mouth. When have I said haidate? Never? So get off my dick about it? Thanks.

What I'm pointing out is what you said yourself: as access to gear grows, WAR's merit edge grows. Naturally this implies that as the DDs suck more and more, the difference between them narrows until they're parsing the same.

Let me take a moment to remind you what you're defending:

Ever try DD PLD? It outparses WARs

So at what point of suckitude does walmart PLD outparse walmart WAR? At some point, we're going to say they can't afford weapons at all, and WAR > PLD for sure then because they have natural H2H skill.

[quote:8eceb]As I said, zergressor is going to make the war pull ahead given equal gear. 12 skill (assuming our walmart paladin and warrior have access to suppa) isn't going to make up for the fact that maneater, which is a whopping 900k on the AH, has acc and attack on it while most swords generally don't. War also gets attack bonus and if I recall has higher base strength which makes up for the gulf in attack as well.

It's a difference of 2 strength, I will give you the maneater thing, as long as you don't conveniently forget that the PLD has ridiculously easy access to 2 swords that double attack frequently, not just one.
[/quote:8eceb]

You realize that if you go joy/jus on pld you give up a huge advantage in base damage right? Just checking.

[quote:8eceb]Then there's rampage which is essentially vorpal blade x 1.1, and the fact that warrior's meritable abilities actual enhance their ability to deal damage...

Giving the warrior full zerk/aggressor merits, while I do believe is fair, is far from "equivalent". Words have meaning, aurik, don't get angry when your grasp on them isn't as firm as your grasp of numbers.[/quote:8eceb]

I did a search of my post for "full" merits and didn't find it. Maybe you should start reading what I wrote instead of responding to what you wish I wrote.

[Ryko]

You realize that if you go joy/jus on pld you give up a huge advantage in base damage right? Just checking.

I'm well aware of that fact, lacking a natural double attack trait, it's left to the PLD's discretion as to whether they want the D bonus in their main hand or if they want a practically guaranteed 4 attacks around to boost their TP gain.

Once again you're putting words in my mouth. When have I said haidate? Never? So get off my dick about it? Thanks.

It's the only piece of gear the warrior's lacking in any of the examples I gave, so arguing that you didn't mention doesn't change the given.

and the fact that warrior's meritable abilities actual enhance their ability to deal damage...

I did a search of my post for "full" merits and didn't find it.

Backpedaling into an argument of semantics won't do dick. You mentioned warrior's meritable abilities enhancing their ability to do damage. Since a paladin doesn't HAVE meritable abilities that do the same thing, mentioning them at all throws equivalency out the window, it doesn't matter if theyre full or 1/1.

[aurik]

and the fact that warrior's meritable abilities actual enhance their ability to deal damage...

[quote:903db]I did a search of my post for "full" merits and didn't find it.

Backpedaling into an argument of semantics don't do dick. You mentioned warrior's meritable abilities enhancing their ability to do damage. Since a paladin doesn't HAVE meritable abilities that do the same thing, mentioning them at all throws equivalency out the window, it doesn't matter if theyre full.[/quote:903db]

You're not the one who should be mentioning semantics after magically inserting the words "full merits" into my post, and creatively interpreting my 'walmart' classification as spitting on anyone without byakko's haidate.

So tell me, at what point in suckitude does PLD DD outparse WAR.

[Ryko]

and the fact that warrior's meritable abilities actual enhance their ability to deal damage...

[quote:2a73e]I did a search of my post for "full" merits and didn't find it.

Backpedaling into an argument of semantics don't do dick. You mentioned warrior's meritable abilities enhancing their ability to do damage. Since a paladin doesn't HAVE meritable abilities that do the same thing, mentioning them at all throws equivalency out the window, it doesn't matter if theyre full.

You're not the one who should be mentioning semantics after magically inserting the words "full merits" into my post.[/quote:2a73e]

Shall we go around and around?

So tell me, at what point in suckitude does PLD DD outparse WAR.

A PLD is fully capable of outdamaging an equivalent war until the point where haidate comes in, or if you (as stated) throw equivalency out of the window (which I said, is fair) and give the WAR their ability merits. Since both of these are common, I can't just say they don't count, but that's far from sucking.

[aurik]

You realize that if you go joy/jus on pld you give up a huge advantage in base damage right? Just checking.

I'm well aware of that fact, lacking a natural double attack trait, it's left to the PLD's discretion as to whether they want the D bonus in their main hand or if they want a practically guaranteed 4 attacks around to boost their TP gain.

Since when do 2 weapons that "occasionally" attack twice make a "practically guaranteed 4 attacks" per round? Multihit weapons are nice, but not that nice.

[quote:6ed25]Once again you're putting words in my mouth. When have I said haidate? Never? So get off my dick about it? Thanks.

It's the only piece of gear the warrior's lacking in any of the examples I gave, so arguing that you didn't mention doesn't change the given.
[/quote:6ed25]

Once again you're using your imagination to fill in my argument instead of what I'm actually writing. Come back to reality, Ryko.

[aurik]

and the fact that warrior's meritable abilities actual enhance their ability to deal damage...

[quote:e16c0]I did a search of my post for "full" merits and didn't find it.

Backpedaling into an argument of semantics don't do dick. You mentioned warrior's meritable abilities enhancing their ability to do damage. Since a paladin doesn't HAVE meritable abilities that do the same thing, mentioning them at all throws equivalency out the window, it doesn't matter if theyre full.

You're not the one who should be mentioning semantics after magically inserting the words "full merits" into my post.

Shall we go around and around?
[/quote:e16c0]

You're the only one here responding to imaginary points that I never made; you decide when to stop the spinning.

[Ryko]

Since when do 2 weapons that "occasionally" attack twice make a "practically guaranteed 4 attacks" per round? Multihit weapons are nice, but not that nice.

Are you kidding me, you have faith baghnaks, you know how often the things go off. I would easily say that a PLD would have more round where they are attacking 4x a round than 3x and especially 2x, would it make you feel better if I said "practically guaranteed 3 attacks around or higher"?

and the fact that warrior's meritable abilities actual enhance their ability to deal damage...

[quote:f3a83]I did a search of my post for "full" merits and didn't find it.

Backpedaling into an argument of semantics don't do dick. You mentioned warrior's meritable abilities enhancing their ability to do damage. Since a paladin doesn't HAVE meritable abilities that do the same thing, mentioning them at all throws equivalency out the window, it doesn't matter if theyre full.

You're not the one who should be mentioning semantics after magically inserting the words "full merits" into my post.

Shall we go around and around?

You're the only one here responding to imaginary points that I never made; you decide when to stop the spinning.[/quote:f3a83]

So tell me aurik, what did you mean by mentioning that a warrior has the choice to merit abilities that enhance their damage? Since it's obvious you're going to bring up what you aren't saying, you might as well tell me what you are.