PLD vs WAR vs Stainslav vs Aurik vs Ryko

[aurik]

Since when do 2 weapons that "occasionally" attack twice make a "practically guaranteed 4 attacks" per round? Multihit weapons are nice, but not that nice.

Are you kidding me, you have faith baghnaks, you know how often the things go off. I would easily say that a PLD would have more round where they are attacking 4x a round than 3x and especially 2x, would it make you feel better if I said "practically guaranteed 3 attacks around or higher"?

Actually, had you said that I wouldn't have picked on it, because it's not a blatant lie.

Stone consumption is 50% on Jus. Assuming Joy is 50% as well, average attack round should be 3 swings exactly.

[Ryko]

Since when do 2 weapons that "occasionally" attack twice make a "practically guaranteed 4 attacks" per round? Multihit weapons are nice, but not that nice.

Are you kidding me, you have faith baghnaks, you know how often the things go off. I would easily say that a PLD would have more round where they are attacking 4x a round than 3x and especially 2x, would it make you feel better if I said "practically guaranteed 3 attacks around or higher"?

Actually, had you said that I wouldn't have picked on it, because it's not a blatant lie.

It wasn't a blatant lie to begin with, those weapons activate regularly enough that you will be attacking 4 times a round more often than not. Fine, it's not 100% of the time, but since you're too busy dodging the reality of the situation by falling back on "I didn't say that!" I might as well take the step forward and correct myself on something that just doesn't matter that much. Fine, "3 attacks or more".

[aurik]

So tell me aurik, what did you mean by mentioning that a warrior has the choice to merit abilities that enhance their damage? Since it's obvious you're going to bring up what you aren't saying, you might as well tell me what you are.

I'm saying that the level of suckitude needed for equivalency between paladin and warrior is so severe that we're talking about fresh-off-the-boat 75s with nothing more than a paycheque from IGE in their delivery box. And then they're equal. How much worse do we have to go before DD PLD is better?

[aurik]

Since when do 2 weapons that "occasionally" attack twice make a "practically guaranteed 4 attacks" per round? Multihit weapons are nice, but not that nice.

Are you kidding me, you have faith baghnaks, you know how often the things go off. I would easily say that a PLD would have more round where they are attacking 4x a round than 3x and especially 2x, would it make you feel better if I said "practically guaranteed 3 attacks around or higher"?

Actually, had you said that I wouldn't have picked on it, because it's not a blatant lie.

It wasn't a blatant lie to begin with, those weapons activate regularly enough that you will be attacking 4 times a round more often than not. Fine, it's not 100% of the time, but since you're too busy dodging the reality of the situation by falling back on "I didn't say that!" I might as well take the step forward and correct myself on something that in reality just doesn't matter that much.

50% consumption, 50% joyeuse, 3 attacks a round average, do the math.

[Ryko]

So tell me aurik, what did you mean by mentioning that a warrior has the choice to merit abilities that enhance their damage? Since it's obvious you're going to bring up what you aren't saying, you might as well tell me what you are.

I'm saying that the level of suckitude needed for equivalency between paladin and warrior is so severe that we're talking about fresh-off-the-boat 75s with nothing more than a paycheque from IGE in their delivery box. And then they're equal. How much worse do we have to go before DD PLD is better?

And like I asked, at what point did dusk and hecatomb become fob 75 gear? Your definition of "suck" is entirely inside your margins, it's not surprising that you're keeping said margins wide. Gear coming off the AH is not the same as said gear sucking, and before you say I put words in your mouth again, that's just me specifying since you're going to say that you mentioned the people who would go out of their way to buy gil to throw on the AH gear as soon as possible.

[aurik]

So tell me aurik, what did you mean by mentioning that a warrior has the choice to merit abilities that enhance their damage? Since it's obvious you're going to bring up what you aren't saying, you might as well tell me what you are.

I'm saying that the level of suckitude needed for equivalency between paladin and warrior is so severe that we're talking about fresh-off-the-boat 75s with nothing more than a paycheque from IGE in their delivery box. And then they're equal. How much worse do we have to go before DD PLD is better?

And like I asked, at what point did dusk and hecatomb become fob 75 gear? Your definition of "suck" is entirely inside your margins, it's not surprising that you're keeping said margins wide.

I didn't say that dusk and heca are FOB gear, I said that the two jobs are about equivalent if you have FOBs with a credit card. Once again, read what I write, not what you wish I wrote.

Anyway, you're avoiding the question I posed: since these 2 are equal at that point, what do we have to take away from them before PLD starts winning parses?

[Zhais]

I think aurik and ryko have a thing for each other.

[Ryko]

So tell me aurik, what did you mean by mentioning that a warrior has the choice to merit abilities that enhance their damage? Since it's obvious you're going to bring up what you aren't saying, you might as well tell me what you are.

I'm saying that the level of suckitude needed for equivalency between paladin and warrior is so severe that we're talking about fresh-off-the-boat 75s with nothing more than a paycheque from IGE in their delivery box. And then they're equal. How much worse do we have to go before DD PLD is better?

And like I asked, at what point did dusk and hecatomb become fob 75 gear?

I didn't say that dusk and heca are FOB gear, I said that the two jobs are about equivalent if you have FOBs with a credit card. Once again, read what I write, not what you wish I wrote.

Anyway, you're avoiding the question I posed: since these 2 are equal at that point, what do we have to take away from them before PLD starts winning parses?

Not a thing, since at that point taking anything away from both would, once again, leave them equally screwed and affect them the same way. It in no way means a PLD is not capable of outparsing a warrior, and it's not nearly as laughable a concept as you're making it out to be.

And you completely dodged the meritable ability question, should I just ignore it? Is it safe to say that said warrior doesn't have access to said meritable abilities since it would throw it off? I mean I'm willing to give the WAR the edge by giving it to them but I'm just asking, why bring it up at all if it's irrelevant to what you were saying?

[aurik]

So tell me aurik, what did you mean by mentioning that a warrior has the choice to merit abilities that enhance their damage? Since it's obvious you're going to bring up what you aren't saying, you might as well tell me what you are.

I'm saying that the level of suckitude needed for equivalency between paladin and warrior is so severe that we're talking about fresh-off-the-boat 75s with nothing more than a paycheque from IGE in their delivery box. And then they're equal. How much worse do we have to go before DD PLD is better?

And like I asked, at what point did dusk and hecatomb become fob 75 gear?

I didn't say that dusk and heca are FOB gear, I said that the two jobs are about equivalent if you have FOBs with a credit card. Once again, read what I write, not what you wish I wrote.

Anyway, you're avoiding the question I posed: since these 2 are equal at that point, what do we have to take away from them before PLD starts winning parses?

Not a thing, since at that point taking anything away from both would, once again, leave them equally screwed and affect them the same way. It in no way means a PLD is not capable of outparsing a warrior, and it's not nearly as laughable a concept as you're making it out to be.

Except I didn't laugh at the idea that a well build PLD can "hang" with the big boys when meritting, I laughed at the idea that DD PLD > no-ridill WAR. Welcome back to reality, Ryko, it took you a while to get here.

And you completely dodged the meritable ability question, should I just ignore it? Is it safe to say that said warrior doesn't have access to said meritable abilities since it would throw it off? I mean I'm willing to give the WAR the edge by giving it to them but I'm just asking, why bring it up at all if it's irrelevant to what you were saying?

It was merely an illustration of what level of "suck" we're talking about before PLD and WAR are equivalent. A fresh 75 war and a fresh 75 pld with nothing but cash in their pockets will be fairly similar. Even then, I still give the advantage to zergressor.

[Ryko]

I laughed at the idea that DD PLD > no-ridill WAR.

You're telling me that this entire thing is because he used > instead of > with an underscore? You have to be kidding me.

[aurik]

I laughed at the idea that DD PLD > no-ridill WAR.

You're telling me that this entire thing is because he used > instead of > with an underscore? You have to be kidding me.

[Ryko]

I laughed at the idea that DD PLD > no-ridill WAR.

You're telling me that this entire thing is because he used > instead of > with an underscore? You have to be kidding me.

Excuse me for not buying that for even a second, even you aren't that nitpicking about such a minute verbal detail. Fine, greater than / greater than or equal to / equal to. The middle leaves it entirely open to either happening. If he said equal we both know you would have responded the exact same way and this argument would have played out the exact same way with slightly different details. Since he didn't specify the conditions, whatever we put on them is entirely arbitrary for either of our purposes.

[Judai]

It should have been:

a DD PLD > a poorly geared or retard WAR.
or
an amazingly geared, maxed out, DD PLD > a competant WAR.

[Ryko]

It should have been:

a DD PLD > a poorly geared or retard WAR.
or
an amazingly geared, maxed out, DD PLD > a competant WAR.

Which, while true, isn't what he was getting at.

[aurik]

I laughed at the idea that DD PLD > no-ridill WAR.

You're telling me that this entire thing is because he used > instead of > with an underscore? You have to be kidding me.

Excuse me for not buying that for even a second, even you aren't that nitpicking about such a minute verbal detail. Fine, greater than / greater than or equal to / equal to. The middle leaves it entirely open to either happening. If he said equal we both know you would have responded the exact same way and this argument would have played out the exact same way with slightly different details.

Except that there's a huge difference between saying "DD PLD is competitive with non-ridill WAR (assuming otherwise equal factors)" and "DD PLD is better than non-ridill WAR (assuming otherwise equal factors)"

Stanislav said the latter, and I lol heartily at that. The former I don't entirely disagree with, depending of course on the "equal factors".

[Keno]

Everyone take a ride on the derail train!

[thur]

ibtl
lol

[psnsonixx]

Ok, same logic though, wouldn't the 5% extra potency be more useful for cures than 30 MP when you're likely not capped beyond the first 5 seconds of the fight anyway. I mean I get the fastcast part but that's not really changing a 3-4 second recast.

You have a very good point. I think I'd rather just not use a Hospitaler Earring.

Anyway, as for Loquacious, the fast cast is really, really nice. And Excalibur, well, I didn't mean to imply that it was useless. I just definitely don't think it's worth the currency upgrading, especially not when we have such other awesome choices (such as the ones I've mentioned, Hauteclaire, Mac+1, Templar Mace). Sure, it's a great solo sword, it's probably pretty awesome for merits, and I'd love to see some 600 damage procs on Cerberus but I seriously don't see the effectiveness on something like Tiamat where I probably parse at 10% accuracy anyway.

Seems like in order to make it work damage-wise you'd need to gear yourself for it specifically (meaning, not tank), in which case your party slot on a grand wyrm would probably be better used as a SMN who can damage it just as quickly without giving it a bit of TP, or, a SAM who can do about twice as much damage.

(And I seriously don't believe Sonix's estimate of 15,000 damage on Tiamat in 45 minutes, so don't even spout out those numbers again until you can show a parse of it.)

*EDIT* To further prove my point:

http://theblackroses-ls.com/tekki/Te...lls/tiamat.png

He's not geared for tanking here, he's geared for DDing. He said, "Still working on my gear, need to get more accuracy and haste." So yeah, maybe he's not geared optimally, but he's also not tanking. And that's still 2,500 damage less than Sonix's estimation. And I bet the fight was longer than 45 minutes, too. (interesting to note: not really relevant to this topic but lol @ 18.4 average skill damage).

You don't have the sword, you don't know how to play this game. You seriously think we take longer then 45 min? We kill tiamat in 26-30 minutes when we have 18 people. We've killed jorm with 6.. we do things your ls couldn't even fucking imagine, so don't give me shit about not believing. we prove it time and time again.

Did I say I had an exact 15k? No. I said 10-15k and it was a guess... I don't CHEAT at all.. I don't use a parser, I don't use a windower.. I don't run anything but FFXI. Maybe somebody else in my ls will do it for me, I don't know, I don't care. The fact is I hit 3-5 procs PER ground.. I did SERIOUS amounts of damage.. and I was TANKING (With another paladin). I tanked in homam gear, accuracy gear, etc.. it wasn't an issue.

Templar mace is a great paladin weapon, it's ALL I used before excal.. it is still a viable option, but frankly im not going to use it while I got excal. Hautclaire is a general piece of shit. I'm sorry to burst your bubbles but, there are maybe 1 or 2 situations where you could make use of that sword.. IE Holding a mob solo and you need some reduction.. or maybe AV to help deal w/ the damage intake.. everywhere else.. NO. And LOL at the enmity sword.. you really don't know paladin son.

Furthermore it's our 6th relic, which compared to some ls's isn't even that impressive.. but the point is we did alot of other nice relics, we wanted a change of pace.. and we are VERY satisfied with it.

edit:

this is to somebody else.. im too lazy to go find the post.. they talked about not being able to hit tiamat in the air.. I think Stain..

I thought this was true too but yesterday I hit it in the air *1* time and the added effect proc'd.. we were all shocked.. it wasn't just as it took off or landed either.. so i dont know what to say.. we joked and said 'excal really is a LONG sword'.. but.. idk.. weird.

[Blackice]

Ok, same logic though, wouldn't the 5% extra potency be more useful for cures than 30 MP when you're likely not capped beyond the first 5 seconds of the fight anyway. I mean I get the fastcast part but that's not really changing a 3-4 second recast.

You have a very good point. I think I'd rather just not use a Hospitaler Earring.

Anyway, as for Loquacious, the fast cast is really, really nice. And Excalibur, well, I didn't mean to imply that it was useless. I just definitely don't think it's worth the currency upgrading, especially not when we have such other awesome choices (such as the ones I've mentioned, Hauteclaire, Mac+1, Templar Mace). Sure, it's a great solo sword, it's probably pretty awesome for merits, and I'd love to see some 600 damage procs on Cerberus but I seriously don't see the effectiveness on something like Tiamat where I probably parse at 10% accuracy anyway.

Seems like in order to make it work damage-wise you'd need to gear yourself for it specifically (meaning, not tank), in which case your party slot on a grand wyrm would probably be better used as a SMN who can damage it just as quickly without giving it a bit of TP, or, a SAM who can do about twice as much damage.

(And I seriously don't believe Sonix's estimate of 15,000 damage on Tiamat in 45 minutes, so don't even spout out those numbers again until you can show a parse of it.)

*EDIT* To further prove my point:

http://theblackroses-ls.com/tekki/Te...lls/tiamat.png

He's not geared for tanking here, he's geared for DDing. He said, "Still working on my gear, need to get more accuracy and haste." So yeah, maybe he's not geared optimally, but he's also not tanking. And that's still 2,500 damage less than Sonix's estimation. And I bet the fight was longer than 45 minutes, too. (interesting to note: not really relevant to this topic but lol @ 18.4 average skill damage).

You don't have the sword, you don't know how to play this game. You seriously think we take longer then 45 min? We kill tiamat in 26-30 minutes when we have 18 people. We've killed jorm with 6.. we do things your ls couldn't even fucking imagine, so don't give me shit about not believing. we prove it time and time again.

Did I say I had an exact 15k? No. I said 10-15k and it was a guess... I don't CHEAT at all.. I don't use a parser, I don't use a windower.. I don't run anything but FFXI. Maybe somebody else in my ls will do it for me, I don't know, I don't care. The fact is I hit 3-5 procs PER ground.. I did SERIOUS amounts of damage.. and I was TANKING (With another paladin). I tanked in homam gear, accuracy gear, etc.. it wasn't an issue.

Templar mace is a great paladin weapon, it's ALL I used before excal.. it is still a viable option, but frankly im not going to use it while I got excal. Hautclaire is a general piece of shit. I'm sorry to burst your bubbles but, there are maybe 1 or 2 situations where you could make use of that sword.. IE Holding a mob solo and you need some reduction.. or maybe AV to help deal w/ the damage intake.. everywhere else.. NO. And LOL at the enmity sword.. you really don't know paladin son.

Furthermore it's our 6th relic, which compared to some ls's isn't even that impressive.. but the point is we did alot of other nice relics, we wanted a change of pace.. and we are VERY satisfied with it.

edit:

this is to somebody else.. im too lazy to go find the post.. they talked about not being able to hit tiamat in the air.. I think Stain..

I thought this was true too but yesterday I hit it in the air *1* time and the added effect proc'd.. we were all shocked.. it wasn't just as it took off or landed either.. so i dont know what to say.. we joked and said 'excal really is a LONG sword'.. but.. idk.. weird.

Don't mean to knitpick here, but using parser and/or windower isn't cheating. Also please please please don't give out numbers that have been eyeballed. Another thing, killing timmy in 26-30 mins with 18 people really isn't something to write home about. When we kill Tiamat we have 12-18 people tops, which 2-3 of those are usually 2 boxed. (we've killed tiamat 105 times to date.) Oh and one more thing, making a wild claim of "you don't know how to play this game" is pretty ignorant on your part considering that was aimed at someone who has been taking part in the endgame scene just as long as you have.

[Zhais]

stuff

Someone has their panties in a bunch tonight.