Good anime/manga worth wasting time to

[GRT]

Reading DN first arc then second was like watching the original godfather then godfather II with a different ending, like somebody assassinated michael or michael confessed at the hearing or something

the second arc is irratatingly inconsistant with the first: kira became an arrogant dumbfuck and his motive has changed from seeking salvation and divination to self preservation

the arguement here is not whether the second arc is as good as the first, but how inconsistant kira's character has been from the 1st to the 2nd... i remember even as the 2nd arc reached its middle the whole 2ch community was calling out about how unbelievably dumb, cowardly and retarded kira has become (the author also became quite silent compared to how talkative he was during the 1st arc), and at that point kira wasn't really losing either: it's not about a character people liked being lost, it's about how kira is a completely different person in the 2nd arc than in the 1st, anybody who followed the weekly releases could clearly see especially near the end how the author was making kira dumber and dumber just so the manga could end, which was really disappointing

[Kaylia]

**DN spoilers**

You can see Kira overconfidence starting to build up from the beginning of the series and increase every time he get over an obstacle. For someone who call himself "God of the new world" in the 3rd episode of the series, I would expect his ego to be freaking big. He was arrogant before L, and he is arrogan after.

His motive was always salvation, and he "succeeded" making the world he wanted. People accepted him, and crime went down like he planed. There wasn't really any obstacle left in his way.

That said, what "stupid" move did Kira make? Explain me what the "real Kira" you are talking about should have done instead.

[layoneil]

P.S There is no such thing as wrong opinions, it's just that we don't see point to point.

oh yes there is.

[GRT]

**DN spoilers**

You can see Kira overconfidence starting to build up from the beginning of the series and increase every time he get over an obstacle. For someone who call himself "God of the new world" in the 3rd episode of the series, I would expect his ego to be freaking big. He was arrogant before L, and he is arrogan after.

His motive was always salvation, and he "succeeded" making the world he wanted. People accepted him, and crime went down like he planed. There wasn't really any obstacle left in his way.

That said, what "stupid" move did Kira make? Explain me what the "real Kira" you are talking about should have done instead.

it's been a long time so i don't remember the details (i'm not watching the anime, and i only read DN once as it was published weekly in japan)... and since i didn't like it i don't really wanna waste time going back to look for an arguement

but generally speaking kira was able to anticipate as much of L's moves as L anticipated kira's, but he somehow got an eye infection against much of N's plans that logically the kira in the 1st arc could have easily figured out... and that third kid (forgot his name), somehow kira just completely nulled his existance in his schemes, whereas the kira in the 1st arc would never overlook a single tiny detail, much less a whole main opponent such as that kid

kira doesn't take any big chances at all either (and doesn't seem willing to) in 2nd arc, is that really the kira who forfeited the notebook just to get close to L in the 1st arc? i mean really?

kira in the 2nd arc also doesn't plan ahead on sacrificing his assets (people around him) in his plans, they are a lot like kitchen knives he toss away when he's backed into a corner than pieces on a chess board like they are in the 1st arc

there are many other elements that differentiate the 1st kira and the 2nd... you could argue that his achievements have softened him, that's logically plausible but in a compelling duel of intellects that's really more of an excuse than a reason, which is why the 2nd arc failed: it was more of an excuse to end the series than a logical conclusion... it could've been so much more

[Charla]

Most of what GRT just said, but I also don't really have a problem with Light getting less and less effective as he becomes more overconfident and starts underestimating N. It's sort of the normal progression of his egomania, or possibly a consequence of a human using the Note for a long period of time. You do have to admit that the last few chapters (basically after that one lady burned herself to death in the truck) kinda slowed down, like they were trying to stretch the story long enough to finish the run.

[Kaylia]

**more DN spoiler**

kira doesn't take any big chances at all either (and doesn't seem willing to) in 2nd arc, is that really the kira who forfeited the notebook just to get close to L in the 1st arc? i mean really?

Kira gave his Note Book to a 3rd party in order to not get caught. He took a huge chance doing this, and paid the price because that's what got him caught in the end. It's not really different than when he forfeited the notebook in the first arc in order to get it back. Kira is pretty damn good at avoiding trouble, but he isn't perfect either. The only real mistake he did was to screw up with the "paper" he used while talking to that chick, but again, his plan was still well executed.

Just compare it to that scene where he avoided L by hidding a TV in a potatochip bag. It worked well for him that time, but he could have been caught easily doing this if they had checked in the trash after. Considering what L did in Misa's house, he went easy on Light at that time. He was bound to fail sooner or later with people like L and N stalking him and watching every little detail.

Also, you can't say Kira didn't anticipate Near move. I'm not sure if you remember the final scene, but he anticipated it long time before. Near just happened to have anticipated Kira's move even more.

kira in the 2nd arc also doesn't plan ahead on sacrificing his assets (people around him) in his plans, they are a lot like kitchen knives he toss away when he's backed into a corner than pieces on a chess board like they are in the 1st arc

Kira was always ready to sacrifice anyone. He was ready to kill his parents or Misa anytime, but it never happened. In the 2nd arc, the only asset he kills is that chick, but she was about to get caught

[GRT]

in the 1st arc kira also relied on 3rd party to do his dirtywork, but he completely relied on the corrupted aspects of human nature, and that's manipulation in its perfection... 2nd arc he trusted on loyalty and craziness in that 3rd party to execute his plans, and you really think that's "clever?" most people on forums at the time of ongoing chapters actually thought that was the biggest mistake he made and predicted it as the cause of his downfall as soon as that character emerged

not to mention it's also quite inconsistant with his character: in his mind, he alone is pure and divine, everyone else who had a hand on his power would misuse it for their own personal gain... that's not the attitude he handed out that notebook with; i also wouldn't call that taking a chance since he obviously trusted his "disciple," whereas in the first arc he literally stripped himself of all powers and put himself into the heart of enemy territory naked

and "whoever anticipated further" was also the one reason that turned a lot of people off... and was the clearest evidence that the author intentionally made kira dumber just to lose and end the series; the end in 1st arc was a much, much more clever and clear cut victory: kira can be so manipulative that he can even kill a god

and yes, of course he was ready to sacrifice everybody else, what i was saying is that in the first arc, kira planned ahead the dummies who would die for his plans ahead of the time (those big company executives as one example) instead of just sacrificing people as the situation calls for it

basically in my opinion, the author had planned for more stories in the DN series (the shinigami world began to pay attention to their conflict was one of the many preparations) but for various unannounced reasons he was forced to end it, so he come up with this half baked conclusion that obviously couldn't fool everyone

[Kaylia]

**DN spoiler**

in the 1st arc kira also relied on 3rd party to do his dirtywork, but he completely relied on the corrupted aspects of human nature, and that's manipulation in its perfection... 2nd arc he trusted on loyalty and craziness in that 3rd party to execute his plans, and you really think that's "clever?" most people on forums at the time of ongoing chapters actually thought that was the biggest mistake he made and predicted it as the cause of his downfall as soon as that character emerged

So, because thing turned out the way Kira planned in first arc, despite the fact he had a lot of element left to luck, he is clever. However, those same luck element in second arc that turned against him make him dumb? I mean come on... Kira always played with fire and could have been caught any time.

The whole point of killing L like this was to make people trust him. Why is it bad if he is using the trust he hardly gained in his plan? Kira character progression was constant throught the whole manga, and you can clearly see him change from a normal guy to a crazy massmurderer with a twisted way to see reality. It's not something that happened suddently after L died. Hell, even L described Kira as a "childish mass murderer", and he was right. That's what Kira is, and that's why he died in a pathetic way like he deserved.

[GRT]

i never said kira wasn't a "childish mass murderer," neither did i say i agree or disagree... what does that have to do with anything anyway? it wasn't about whether people liked kira or not, it's about whether the story worked or not, and in my opinion the 2nd arc is extremely inconsistant and ill drafted and rough as hell, and a lot of pre-work for a long DN series were left unanswered because it had to be cut short

you also misinterpret what i was talking about regarding "trust," it's not the trust that he had from people around him, it's the trust that he grants other people: he does not trust others in the first arc, and he should really distrust others even more by the way the story develops, which makes the inconsistancy very, very obvious with him giving away the notebook based on hoping that guy would think like him

i didn't say anything about luck either, it worked both ways for both arcs... and if anything, the 2nd arc had a LOT more coincidences than the 1st, something i think psychological thriller plots should avoid

[Kaylia]

You are arguing that Kira suck in the 2nd arc because his behavior changed, I'm saying it did not (thats why I mentioned how L described Kira), and that there was hint that he would turn out that way. His progression was constant throught the whole manga.

That's fine with me if you like/dislike the 2nd arc because of what Kira became, but I disagree when you say Kira "changed" in the 2nd arc . You can see where he was heading since the very beginning.

i didn't say anything about luck either, it worked both ways for both arcs... and if anything, the 2nd arc had a LOT more coincidences than the 1st, something i think psychological thriller plots should avoid

What do you mean by "a lot" more. I can't think of many scenes where luck matter. There is a few action scenes, but the outcome doesn't really change anything except making them rethink their strategy.

[GRT]

hah, luck factor that mattered? for one, remember how N noticed the whole thing with the paper

actually, i also see not too far into the DN series that kira will ultimately meet his demise, my point is that the 2nd arc turned the tide against him too awkwardly, and the author didn't come up with a better/more convincingly intelligent opponent to make that happen, instead he made kira dumber to meet that result, it's like when referees make intentional bad calls to artificially tilt the game one way or the other

kira indeed changed: from the entire 1st arc you can see he's cruel but not desperate, he's intelligent but not mad, he's with a pinpointed purpose and ironspine determination but not at all a martyr, and he's extremely flexible toward any situation in both his act and method... he's beautifully constructed by the author in the 1st arc, and because he already deals with the whole world in that unusual frame as if from a deity, there's just no logical way he could degenerate so fast and turn the corner so sharply to become what he is in the 2nd arc

there are usually two ways that a story teller begins his tale. he either outlines the entire story then fill in the color, or he fully builds a base and a general direction and let the story takes flight by itself... japanese manga authors most of the time uses the 2nd method, as it was probably done with DN... the awkwardness comes in when the author tries to reshape what the story has became on its own, and the result is your DN 2nd arc... for me DN will always be a classic, but that's because i try to forget that it ever went further beyond the 1st arc

[Charla]

warning: even more DN spoilers, duh.

You are arguing that Kira suck in the 2nd arc because his behavior changed, I'm saying it did not (thats why I mentioned how L described Kira), and that there was hint that he would turn out that way. His progression was constant throught the whole manga

It's a smooth character progression, but progression is still a form of change. I don't mind how Light changed along the way, but I don't think he would have, for instance, let Near convince the afro guy the way he did and still let afro guy live. He might have been willing to sacrifice anyone for his purposes, but he didn't plan for it. On top of that, he actually called out for the Mikami (I think that's his name, the note holder) to open the door in the last scene. If he hadn't done that, he might have been able to pull something out. Or he could have given Misa her memory back and set up a contingency plan. Or puppetmastered the four guys standing behind him beforehand. It's just fine for him to be overconfident, but he was so extremely overconfident that it felt a little like Ohba (or was it Obata... one was the author and one was the artist) was forcing him to lose.

Now, as for Near being too weak to have deserved to win there, I like to remember that he didn't win by himself. He actually admitted that he wouldn't have figured out Mikami's part if Mello hadn't acted when he did. So even if it was a bit contrived, Light sort of did lose to the two of them "working together".

[Kaylia]

hah, luck factor that mattered? for one, remember how N noticed the whole thing with the paper

He followed that guy every day and looked at his bank account >_> They did exactly what any police would do and found the Death note he was hidding. Or are you talking about something else?

I cant think of a scene where N got lucky, he just did what anyone who investigate something would do. You are bound to find evidence sooner or later if the other guy's plan isn't perfect.


Keep in mind Kira had an easy life for 4 years before meeting Mello and Near. The whole world support him too, and he act accordingly. With that in mind, I don't think the decission he takes are really different than the one he took in the first part. There is small difference in a way, since Kira isn't in control of everything, but how could he be? His goal is to control the world, something that cant be done as easily as control a few people in his surrounding.

In the end, I thought the ending worked well. What got Kira was little detail he overlooked when he tried to accomplish something too big for a human

[Kaylia]

To charla

**DN spoiler**

Well, what you said would be true if Kira was still in position of power, like in the first half. This time, Near is the one who have the advantage, and he is keeping Kira in checkmate. By killing the afro guy, it would confirm Kira was one of them, something Light had to avoid. Also, you need to consider L work in all this. What near said was "If L suspected him at one point, come see me". The people around him aren't dumb either, and what was said was enough to make anyone have some doubt. Near played the exact same card Light did when he called the meeting of the 8 guys.

Near knew Light was Kira, and unlike L, he had a lot more reason to suspect him. He just wanted to "prove" it by winning the mind game. Calling Mikami name, or saying "I win" wouldnt have changed a thing, except maybe delay his death a little more (keep in mind Ryuk said he would kill him if he fail/become useless). There was no way Kira escape that place alive unless he was killing everyone. He was screwed up the moment his plan failled. Also, keep in mind 2 people in their team knew he was Kira, he wouldnt have convinced anyone even without calling Miyaki by his name.



I guess I can agree there was some luck on Near side because of what Mello did, but it's the kind of detail that could made him fall any times.[/quote]

[Kaylia]

To charla

**DN spoiler**

Well, what you said would be true if Kira was still in position of power, like in the first half. This time, Near is the one who have the advantage, and he is keeping Kira in checkmate. By killing the afro guy, it would confirm Kira was one of them, something Light had to avoid. Also, you need to consider L work in all this. What near said was "If L suspected him at one point, come see me". The people around him aren't dumb either, and what was said was enough to make anyone have some doubt. Near played the exact same card Light did when he called the meeting of the 8 guys.

Near knew Light was Kira, and unlike L, he had a lot more reason to suspect him. He just wanted to "prove" it by winning the mind game. Calling Mikami name, or saying "I win" wouldnt have changed a thing, except maybe delay his death a little more (keep in mind Ryuk said he would kill him if he fail/become useless). There was no way Kira escape that place alive unless he was killing everyone. He was screwed up the moment his plan failled. Also, keep in mind 2 people in their team knew he was Kira, he wouldnt have convinced anyone even without calling Miyaki by his name.



I guess I can agree there was some luck on Near side because of what Mello did, but it's the kind of detail that could made him fall any times.

[/quote]

[Jicent]

so yeah it would be greatly appreciated if someone could PM me the translated full metal panic novels past TSR

[Kaylia]

so yeah it would be greatly appreciated if someone could PM me the translated full metal panic novels past TSR

If such thing exist....pm it to me too

[Charla]

Ok, I'll admit that Light had less room to maneuver because the entire situation had changed over the last four years, and also because Mello's actions were unpredictable compared to both L's and Near's. But that's all the more reason to leave himself a contingency plan, such as: giving Misa her memories back and leaving hidden instructions for her, puppetmastering all four of the guys with him to do something unexpected, etc. He kept going on and on about how inferior Near was and how there was no way he would ever figure it all out, even though as you just said, Near only had to find a tiny flaw in Mikami's behavior and then do what any police would do. Even if a contingency plan would have only slowed Near down a little, he could have kept running for a while until he found a way to discredit SPK or something. Even if Ohba/Obata wanted Light to lose in the end, they could have come up with some more plot, which IMO would have been better than the last section (everything after Mello died).

Now on the other hand, it could have ended a lot worse. As I said before, I sort of liked the idea of Near and Mello having to work together, even by accident. And I liked the last few pages of the last chapter, where (what looks like) Misa starts a cult just to mourn Light. I wonder if the rest of the fanbase has a different interpretation of that scene...

edit: yes, I know how html tags work... really.

[Kaylia]

Ok, I'll admit that Light had less room to maneuver because the entire situation had changed over the last four years, and also because Mello's actions were unpredictable compared to both L's and Near's. But that's all the more reason to leave himself a contingency plan, such as: giving Misa her memories back and leaving hidden instructions for her, puppetmastering all four of the guys with him to do something unexpected, etc. He kept going on and on about how inferior Near was and how there was no way he would ever figure it all out, even though as you just said, Near only had to find a tiny flaw in Mikami's behavior and then do what any police would do. Even if a contingency plan would have only slowed Near down a little, he could have kept running for a while until he found a way to discredit SPK or something. Even if Ohba/Obata wanted Light to lose in the end, they could have come up with some more plot, which IMO would have been better than the last section (everything after Mello died).

Now on the other hand, it could have ended a lot worse. As I said before, I sort of liked the idea of Near and Mello having to work together, even by accident. And I liked the last few pages of the last chapter, where (what looks like) Misa starts a cult just to mourn Light. I wonder if the rest of the fanbase has a different interpretation of that scene...

edit: yes, I know how html tags work... really.

Well, it could always be better, but to say 2nd half was bad? I dunno. I always expected Light's pride to be the cause of his downfall, and I was happy with the way it happened. 1 win against L, than 1 defeat against the 2nd "L". I thought the beginning of the arc was weaker (I cant say I'm a big fan of the action scene with Mello), but thing got back to the way they were a few chapter later.

Kira couldnt discredit N, because it would just make him look like Kira. Well, he tried, but N already did some damage by making people on his side doubt Light (and they had serious reason to do it with what N said about fake rule, and asking about the real L). I thought Near plan to make Kira commits mistake as a whole stake was clever, and Light's plan was good enough to work. He went as far as to anticipate Mello's move.

I thought last few page show people mourning Light in "heaven", not a cult. You see Light's father and mother walking too. They are mourning him because his soul never reached that place after using the Death note. Ryuk's implied a few time that human who use DN won't go to heaven or hell, and it's probably what happened here. Misa was fine since she gave up the ownership before dying.

[GRT]

so yeah it would be greatly appreciated if someone could PM me the translated full metal panic novels past TSR

boku tachi backup server :D

http://boku-tachi.servbits.com/?p=Full% ... %20Novels/

TSR is "end of day by day" so boku tachi translated the next two

i know korean and chinese translators have everything translated up to the newest chapter but um, not sure if those help ya