Your education level.

[Beckwin]

So Devek is talking from over a decade of experience writing code etc about how anyone that can use google can do what a comp eng can do?

It would take me a loooong fucking time to teach myself how to solve "simple" problems like what divisor and devek have posted, and I've even poked around in computer science classes.

I don't think its unreasonable for someone who has been actively coding and learning for over a decade with the aid of teh interweb to be close to a bachelor in CS, but novices are a whole different story. Just because someone like me has the potential to teach myself how to do this doesn't make up for an established knowledge and experience base that a degree'd guy has.

[VZX]

Wait.. I thought college was supposed to make everyone experts with deep understanding of win32.

Shocked.

It used to be? I entered college for my first 2 years of undergraduate then moved to university for the last 2 years. None of the courses taught me win32 or none of the assignment using win32 features.
well... maybe there's 1... but that's when I'm using GLUI

I thought that is what specialized institute taught their students (MFC and their friends)

[mikazuki]

HND in physics i think, i couldn't be bothered to finish my BSc project (write a program to calculate eigenvalues for various energy wells), so i never picked my qualification up - whatever it may be.

i can present a variety of physics problems which can't be solved with google if anyone is interested ;D the only way to get the information is to go talk to the guy who is researching the specific subject or get whatever papers s/he has published and fund your own lab.

[Lordwafik]

So Devek is talking from over a decade of experience writing code etc about how anyone that can use google can do what a comp eng can do?

It would take me a loooong fucking time to teach myself how to solve "simple" problems like what divisor and devek have posted, and I've even poked around in computer science classes.

I don't think its unreasonable for someone who has been actively coding and learning for over a decade with the aid of teh interweb to be close to a bachelor in CS, but novices are a whole different story. Just because someone like me has the potential to teach myself how to do this doesn't make up for an established knowledge and experience base that a degree'd guy has.

I think the main debate is someone like devek is essentially insulting Aurik / Divisor / Misterbob by telling them anyone can do their job so long as they have google. They retort and tell him no, try getting a job if your only experience is being a script kiddie (that's exactly what he is, he just doesn't see it), and apply for a job with script kiddie skills. Apply to it by telling them you made a voke bot, and then tell them you made it with a few hours of google. They will not only turn you down, but they will turn you down because you had to use google to pull something as simple as a voke bot off.

Script Kiddie skills =/= Bachelor CS. If you remove google or any other form of index system from him, he will be stopped dead in his tracks, whereas Aurik / Divisor / Misterbob will use what they learned to get around the task which they were hired to do.

[Kaylia]

I think the main debate is someone like devek is essentially insulting Aurik / Divisor / Misterbob by telling them anyone can do their job so long as they have google. They retort and tell him no, try getting a job if your only experience is being a script kiddie (that's exactly what he is, he just doesn't see it), and apply for a job with script kiddie skills. Apply to it by telling them you made a voke bot, and then tell them you made it with a few hours of google. They will not only turn you down, but they will turn you down because you had to use google to pull something as simple as a voke bot off.

Script Kiddie skills =/= Bachelor CS. If you remove google or any other form of index system from him, he will be stopped dead in his tracks, whereas Aurik / Divisor / Misterbob will use what they learned to get around the task which they were hired to do.

Someone who uses google to make program isnt a script kiddie. >_> Script kiddies is someone who reuse existing program and modify a few parameters or easy things like interface. You can get some help to program a bot on google, but it can't be done if you never learned the basic (which can also be learned on google)

Experience in programming do a lot more than school will. I'm pretty sure with google alone, someone could learn enough about programming to do most job correctly.

[Eaglestrike]

I think the main debate is someone like devek is essentially insulting Aurik / Divisor / Misterbob by telling them anyone can do their job so long as they have google. They retort and tell him no, try getting a job if your only experience is being a script kiddie (that's exactly what he is, he just doesn't see it), and apply for a job with script kiddie skills. Apply to it by telling them you made a voke bot, and then tell them you made it with a few hours of google. They will not only turn you down, but they will turn you down because you had to use google to pull something as simple as a voke bot off.

Script Kiddie skills =/= Bachelor CS. If you remove google or any other form of index system from him, he will be stopped dead in his tracks, whereas Aurik / Divisor / Misterbob will use what they learned to get around the task which they were hired to do.

Someone who uses google to make program isnt a script kiddie. >_> Script kiddies is someone who reuse existing program and modify a few parameters or easy things like interface. You can get some help to program a bot on google, but it can't be done if you never learned the basic (which can also be learned on google)

Experience in programming do a lot more than school will. I'm pretty sure with google alone, someone could learn enough about programming to do most job correctly.

Isn't that what using google basically is? Find an existing program/code through Google, and change a few things so it does what you want.

[Talus]

You can't google US patent applications that haven't passed through their security review (not all patents do this), or PCT applications going through the same process.

A degree is still worth something especially if it's in an engineering field. Liberal arts graduates usually have a harder time getting the same salary as say, an engineer. But the bonus to liberal arts grads is since they're not highly specialized they are easy to train and can do practically anything in support/administration.

[Zigma]

Computer Science is a joke.

[divisortheory]

I don't know how to do that Dev, but I also have no problem admitting I don't know. And I wouldn't even deram of going off and copying some code off of that internet and then presenting it as a solution when the code wasn't mine and I had no idea what it did. Copy/pasting code is fine when all you need is a cookbook solution, but that's about 5% of what's required in a real job. And trust me, during a job interview it's very easy to tell a cookbook programmer from a thinker.

Anyway, to answer your original question, I don't think you find the answer to my operator= question with a google search.

[½pint]

Devek, when you made this voke bot that you are so proud about, didn't you make posts on xUnleashed requesting help?

[Gatsby]

I R B Smert. One of the few Masters level here..

Sadly I'm not even close to using my 2 degrees.

[Devek]

Script Kiddie skills =/= Bachelor CS. If you remove google or any other form of index system from him, he will be stopped dead in his tracks, whereas Aurik / Divisor / Misterbob will use what they learned to get around the task which they were hired to do.

Without Google they will be doomed to be limited by what little information they know at the time and be forced to reinvent the wheel on everything they do. They will be doubly doomed if they have to work on something they never worked before.

Computer Science as a field is mostly SOLVED. Only 00.01% of programmers are going to have the luxury to do something no one else did before and the rest are simply going to regurgitate his code over and over either through memory or a reference. We already know to make the best hash for example and you can find it done already in any of the 500 languages out there,

Occasionally we get a guy like John Carmack who pretty much invents real time 3d but then you get tons of programmers who are simply redoing what he did on new stuff.

Obviously you need to be smart enough to understand some of the stuff you are Googling to be really effective.. but why in the world would someone not FIRST go out and use the biggest collection of human knowledge in the history of man FIRST before sitting down and doing something that has already been done?

I don't know how to do that Dev, but I also have no problem admitting I don't know. And I wouldn't even deram of going off and copying some code off of that internet and then presenting it as a solution when the code wasn't mine and I had no idea what it did. Copy/pasting code is fine when all you need is a cookbook solution, but that's about 5% of what's required in a real job.

So if your boss just wanted to see if something would work you would spend days making a full implementation? You ever heard of prototyping? Example: My boss was wanting to try out graylisting on our qmail mailservers, so 10 min later with some cut and pasting we had a prototype mail server that did graylisting. It obviously didn't have the features we needed but it allowed them to put a old unused (yet highly spammed) domain on it to see how effective it was against spam with no real effort or time spent.

Eventually I spent a few days coding something really good for qmail that worked well with our management software and provided all the features we wanted... but what if the decision was made never to use graylisting at all? I would of wasted a week writing something good just to throw away.. thanks to Google and cut and paste I only had to spent 10 min of my time to find out.

Furthermore with graylisting there are some pretty significant drawbacks that we learned thanks to the prototype and we were able to address those in the real implementation. If we made a full implementation first there is no way we could of been prepared for how those drawbacks impacted us and might of required a scrap and rewrite of a lot of things. :/

With Google and cut and paste you can throw together multiple ready made solutions to any given problem and have plenty of time to spare to see what works best for your situation rather than invest time reinventing the wheel for something that may be no good.

Anyway, to answer your original question, I don't think you find the answer to my operator= question with a google search.

Spent 5 min.. c++ and standard took me to bjarne's website and that pointed me to the draft of his language where I searched for the word "operator overloading"

13.5.6 of the ISO DRAFT

An operator function shall either be a non-static member function or be a non-member function and have at
6
least one parameter whose type is a class, a reference to a class, an enumeration, or a reference to an enu-
meration. It is not possible to change the precedence, grouping, or number of operands of operators. The
meaning of the operators =, (unary) &, and , (comma), predefined for each type, can be changed for spe-
cific class and enumeration types by defining operator functions that implement these operators. Operator
functions are inherited in the same manner as other base class functions, but because an instance of
operator= is automatically constructed for each class (12.8, 13.5.3), operator= is never inherited by
a class from its bases.

Devek, when you made this voke bot that you are so proud about, didn't you make posts on xUnleashed requesting help?

I already said it was my first program on windows so I imagine some help figuring out what to do would be helpful no? All you can possibly do by pointing that out is to prove my point because I had no idea how to do anything in windows at the time and my bot had 100% effectiveness when it was used until the claiming system was changed, you were on Remora and even in my shell at one time, you KNOW this.

[divisortheory]

Anyway, to answer your original question, I don't think you find the answer to my operator= question with a google search.

Spent 5 min.. c++ and standard took me to bjarne's website and that pointed me to the draft of his language where I searched for the word "operator overloading"

13.5.6 of the ISO DRAFT

because an instance of operator= is automatically constructed for each class (12.8, 13.5.3), operator= is never inherited by a class from its bases.

Unfortunately that doesn't answer the question I asked.

So if your boss just wanted to see if something would work you would spend days making a full implementation? You ever heard of prototyping? Example: My boss was wanting to try out graylisting on our qmail mailservers, so 10 min later with some cut and pasting we had a prototype mail server that did graylisting. It obviously didn't have the features we needed but it allowed them to put a old unused (yet highly spammed) domain on it to see how effective it was against spam with no real effort or time spent.

Eventually I spent a few days coding something really good for qmail that worked well with our management software and provided all the features we wanted... but what if the decision was made never to use graylisting at all? I would of wasted a week writing something good just to throw away.. thanks to Google and cut and paste I only had to spent 10 min of my time to find out.

With Google and cut and paste you can throw together multiple ready made solutions to any given problem and have plenty of time to spare to see what works best for your situation rather than invest time reinventing the wheel for something that may be no good.

So here you are advocating that google is a useful tool for programming. Which is not the same as what you said earlier, which is that google is (by and large) the only tool you need.

[Misterjingles]

Fuck all of you with your fancy BS degrees!!! D:
I only have an assoc. ._.

I'll show you... I'LL SHOW ALL OF YOU!! BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHHAHAH :cough: AHahahaHAHahaha... fuck it.

[Elesirdur]

I've got a BA in History and a minor in Political Science. Graduated in May of 2006 and had to spend the next 10 months working at a pizza place to make ends meet while I was looking for real jobs. I only worked there because the money was decent, the people were cool, and the tips rocked for driving. I had previously been the ASM of an EBGames for 3 years and a regular SA for 2 years prior; that job pretty much put me through uni but I quit after XMas 2005 because I had enough money to last me to the end of the school year.

Currently I run my own communications consulting company, Exocet Communications Ltd., and am mostly engaged working for a leading wind energy development company in British Columbia. Being a consultant's pretty nice. In practice, I'm an employee of the wind energy company, but we both benefit from be being an independent contractor. Having your own business is a nice way to create little tax dodges here and there. Like many consultants and self-employed persons I let my business pick up the tab for a lot of my necessaries - phone, internet, transportation, etc. - and can pay myself less (meaning fewer deduction and less personal tax) and economize that way.

In a few years I want to go back and get my Masters; hopefully in History but possibly in Public Administration or Communications. I know I'll need that kind of higher education should I chose to pursue a career in Government or at another private firm.

For reference, both my parents have PhDs; my mom has a PhD in Educational Psychology and my father a DSc in Marine Biology. Education and learning was always a big part of my childhood and our household and once I got into my third year at uni I really started to enjoy the actual academic side of post-secondary education. I was there to enrich my life and learn, not just get a piece of paper that means I can make more money. I really hated that trend which was in full swing by the time I was getting close to graduation. I felt that it devalued my own efforts as employers and society would mark my BA the same as someone who didn't give two shits about what they were learning and only went through the motions of schooling for their own mercurial desires.

[aurik]

Computer Science as a field is mostly SOLVED.

lmao

[VZX]

Computer Science as a field is mostly SOLVED.

lmao

As far as I learn from computer graphics classes, there still a lot of unsolved problems.
Every year, the paper is just getting more and more complex and harder to understand

[dietvanillapepsi]

Computer Science as a field is mostly SOLVED.

lmao

Which is why we still play Pong and Atari. My WordPerfect really works great on my new Tandy laptop...

[Justice]

Four associates degrees

Associates degree of General Science
Associates Degree of Applied Science
Associates Degree of Computer Science
Associates Degree of Networking technology (finishing this one)

all the four year schools are too far away so i cant get a bachelors<sp?> ;_; /cry

every phone conversation with my relatives or grandparents starts with
'So... Justi.. you get a bachelors yet?'

[divisortheory]

all the four year schools are too far away so i cant get a bachelors<sp?> ;_; /cry

When you live on campus, the four year schools are about a 1 minute walking distance.