Ideas for questions

[Charla]

I was going to keep going even though I don't really have a particular position on this, but ppl have been arguing this shit for centuries, you'd think over that time people would've found more conclusive evidence for either side.

do you know what a dog is?

some people believe God does those things.

you and the dog need to get a room already.

And post the pictures on 4chan!

[arlania]

I was going to keep going even though I don't really have a particular position on this, but ppl have been arguing this shit for centuries, you'd think over that time people would've found more conclusive evidence for either side.

do you know what a dog is?

Yes, everyone knows what a dog is, a tree is, a whale is, a rock is. Evolution is true. Things do evolve. Like I said, I believe in God and I believe in evolution. Just because one exists doesnt negate the other.

[DarktaruFM]

I was going to keep going even though I don't really have a particular position on this, but ppl have been arguing this shit for centuries, you'd think over that time people would've found more conclusive evidence for either side.

do you know what a dog is?

some people believe God does those things.

you and the dog need to get a room already.

wrong..

from wiki:

Origins

Main article: Origin of the domestic dog

Some research appears to show that dogs were domesticated from wolves as recently as 15,000 years ago,[1] or perhaps as early as 100,000 years ago based upon recent genetic, fossil and DNA evidence.[2] Other research suggests that dogs have only been domesticated for a much shorter amount of time and were domesticated from populations of wild dogs, which had previously diverged from wolves.[3][4]

New evidence suggests that dogs were first domesticated in East Asia, possibly China,[5] and the first peoples to enter North America took dogs with them from Asia. Genetic research has identified 14 ancient dog breeds, with the oldest being the Chow Chow, Shar Pei, Akita Inu, Shiba Inu and Basenji. Because many of the 14 breeds are associated with China and Japan, the theory that the dog originated in Asia seems to be likely.[5]

As humans migrated around the planet a variety of dog forms migrated with them. The agricultural revolution and subsequent urban revolution led to an increase in the dog population and a demand for specialization. These circumstances would provide the opportunity for selective breeding to create specialized working dogs and pets.

[Devek]

No one has argued that evolution doesn't happen.

[Axil]

You guys are arguing about evolution on the internet.
Oh, boy...

[DarktaruFM]

No one has argued that evolution doesn't happen.

" some people believe God does those things. "



which in the specific case of the dog, is wrong

[arlania]

Also why are you hung up on dogs for your proof too? Why not birds that change color depending upon their enviroment, or lizards that do the same or etc etc etc. Evolution does happen, the arguement is wether it was all started by God or we just happened to come to exist.

[DarktaruFM]

Also why are you hung up on dogs for your proof too? Why not birds that change color depending upon their enviroment, or lizards that do the same or etc etc etc. Evolution does happen, the arguement is wether it was all started by God or we just happened to come to exist.

that is the real question.

your point is correct, yes evolution happens everywhere, but the most direct proof that the human has is indeed the existance of dogs, hence my using of dogs as example.

[Charla]

Well birds and lizards changing color actually isn't evolution, unless you're in the Pokemon universe...

[Devek]

No one has argued that evolution doesn't happen.

" some people believe God does those things. "



which in the specific case of the dog, is wrong

By definition evolution is just the change in inherited traits from generation to generation and THAT could be caused by many things like natural selection... selective breeding.. God.. or Santa Clause.

We have done selective breeding to humans too.

..sigh

[DarktaruFM]

Well birds and lizards changing color actually isn't evolution, unless you're in the Pokemon universe...

it is indeed. in an arid desert which lizard would be more visible, a green one or a light brown one... switch to a forest.. which one gets eaten and which one doesnt.

[Charla]

Well birds and lizards changing color actually isn't evolution, unless you're in the Pokemon universe...

it is indeed. in an arid desert which lizard would be more visible, a green one or a light brown one... switch to a forest.. which one gets eaten and which one doesnt.

Ah, sorry. The word changing made me think of a bird that turns white in winter or a chameleon type effect. Yes, genetic drift can also be observed in extant populations over relatively few gnerations.

[DarktaruFM]

No one has argued that evolution doesn't happen.

" some people believe God does those things. "



which in the specific case of the dog, is wrong

By definition evolution is just the change in inherited traits from generation to generation and THAT could be caused by many things like natural selection... selective breeding.. God.. or Santa Clause.

We have done selective breeding to humans too.

..sigh

by random change in traits caused by god you mean the chemistry of deaminations, depurination, etc, that change the structure of DNA(very well known chemically), which causes mutation, which causes a change in trait.


the real question posed is not if evolution exist, the question that is unanswered is this one:

Is evolution random (natural selection), or does it have a purpose other than natural selection (religion)?

[Devek]

You assume that if it isn't random that it is religion.. your own religion blinds your logic :/

[DarktaruFM]

You assume that if it isn't random that it is religion.. your own religion blinds your logic :/

just putting it in broad terms, le tme add that what i was trying to say its not religion per se but more of a theological point of view ..

theology says theres a purpose in gods creations and everything is made for reason; by that logic, fortuitous events arent really random and are just testaments of gods divinity; which means evolution is not random at all, but is guided by a "hand" of sorts, just to show the divinity of creation.

Evolution, then, cannot be random; since we, humans, are here after millions of years of evolution.

that is the general idea..

thats saying things w/o zealotry or fanatism, since well; theres people that think we were made a few millenia ago by god himself. (which is also religion)

[Devek]

You offer evidence of dogs.. which humans (intelligent?) have molded, shaped, and selectivity bred and had a hand in their evolution.

Dogs are just as much a result of intelligent design as anything.

This stopped being a science discussion long time ago. We can experiment and observe what happens.. even try to make predictions based off that. Anything else needs to stay the hell out of science classrooms

Feel free to create a single cell organism yourself that we can experiment with in a controlled environment in the meantime.

[DarktaruFM]

You offer evidence of dogs.. which humans (intelligent?) have molded, shaped, and selectivity bred and had a hand in their evolution.

Dogs are just as much a result of intelligent design as anything.

This stopped being a science discussion long time ago. We can experiment and observe what happens.. even try to make predictions based off that. Anything else needs to stay the hell out of science classrooms

Feel free to create a single cell organism yourself that we can experiment with in a controlled environment in the meantime.

i agree with you, this discussion is not about science itself, but the impication and paradigms(sp) of the seen data.

evolution can only be proven at the bacteria level at this point with a controlled environment, anything else other than that would require outside sources to accelerate evolution to a perceivable rate.

there is so much science can tell you about our surroundings and the way it works, anything other than that is up in the realm of belief.

[Charla]

This was never a discussion about science. The OP asked for good ways to make a creationist look stupid, we offered some. Then we derailed.

[Marsala]

I have a question, and I don't want to look up wikipedia or anything to get the answer.

What's the irrefutable evidence for evolution, or maybe against "creationism?"

The science of evolution doesn't go against creationism or even the concept of a God but the religion of evolution does.. there is a difference.

Evolution as a science is real as anything and there is no debate or argument against it. We can and do observe mutations that give organisms new traits.

Natural selection as a science is real to a point as anything and for the most part there is no debate. The idea is that organisms better fit to survive will breed more and pass on their traits to their offspring and we can observe that happening with real science.

Evolution by natural selection starts to become almost religious and is just a theory. Because a single cell organism mutated and was able to breed better we now have humans?

How would you observe that the first organism with a mutation that allowed it to go on land was in better position to breed and carry on its genes? What about when a mutation changed the chromosomes of an animal change so drastically it could no longer mate at all with the rest of its species?

What about humans? In today's world intelligence allows one to survive more than physique yet if you take a 130+ IQ short guy who consumes little food and can harness more resources than a 400 pound fat guy living off the government in the hood.. who is going to breed more? Not the more "evolved" of the species.

Intelligent Design is not science because you simply can't observe a God designing life much less experiment on it. Imagine setting up a control where we make one planet just like Earth where God exists and we setup another planet just like Earth where God doesn't exist? Imagine trying to make predictions on how God is going to design humans in the future?

To make it worse some people turn ID into a religious argument that it happened EXACTLY like the Bible said it did and in 7 days to boot! (Which is kind of retarded because if you read the bible carefully it never says the Earth didn't exist before Genesis 1..)

To make it even worse every argument made by ID proponents while provoking are not logically sound. The arguments all boil down to complexity.

While I might think it odd if I picked up random paints, threw them at the wall, and ended up with an exact replica of the Mona Lisa that doesn't mean it didn't happen or that it was impossible. The possibility is there and trying to argue against the possibility of it happening is a fallacy. As compelling as it may "feel" for them to throw out evidence that life as we know it had a 1 in 10^150 chance of happening through evolution doesn't prove anything.

The real problem as I see is that both camps are kind of religious because they are confusing what actually happened with WHY. I accept evidence that we all evolved from single cell organisms but I think saying it was all random and happened by chance is just as stupid as saying it happened because God said so. When God comes down and tell me how it happened I will believe it and when scientist can create an observable experiment where base elements can form into any form of life at all much less one with a freaking computer program in it (DNA) I will buy the evolution through natural selection also.

Who is to say the DNA in that first life form wasn't programmed to evolve into humans by another group of humans who wanted to spread their genes in another galaxy? The evidence is in our DNA and our children will be the ones who will be able to reverse engineer enough to either answer this question once and for all or raise new questions that make this all irrelevant. Our DNA isn't that much unlike the machine code that allows your browser to function and read this post..

If you are saying that God used evolution to create man then that would put death before sin which would make it not true if you believed what the Bible says. I don't see how that can work.

[Devek]

What the hell does the bible have to do with God?