Bahamut V.2

[Xavier]

Wouldn't NIN/RDM over NIN/DRK on Bahamut be more useful anyway, when you consider the job traits it gives you (assuming you have someone else to stun the ga's)?

Fast Cast, Resist Petrify, Magic Defense Bonus.

Is this a joke, or...?

I can see the trait bonus' being great, but I don't imagine hate being managed nearly as effeciently as /DRK.

Or maybe I just missed a joke. Do I see a "WHOOSH" in the near future?

If you aren't responsible for stunning (and it builds stun resist), it'll be about the same hate control so I don't see the joke.

[Zilong]

Wouldn't NIN/RDM over NIN/DRK on Bahamut be more useful anyway, when you consider the job traits it gives you (assuming you have someone else to stun the ga's)?

Fast Cast, Resist Petrify, Magic Defense Bonus.

Is this a joke, or...?

I can see the trait bonus' being great, but I don't imagine hate being managed nearly as effeciently as /DRK.

Or maybe I just missed a joke. Do I see a "WHOOSH" in the near future?

Considering NIN/DRK's main hate tool is pretty much a dead card against bahamut, and RDM still gives bind and sleep, they're more or less the same as far as the spell library is concerned, the only difference being /DRK's last resort and souleater.

[shihei]

If your nin died at 88%, lol, I think you got more things to worry about than that silly charm.

I can't agree more.

log on ffxi so i can add you to my friend list

[RKenshin]

Has anyone here actually tried NIN/RDM? The tone of the last few pages makes it sound like people do it pretty often, but I don't think I remember anyone posting actual first-hand experiences with it.

I'm not sure but Fast Cast with capped Haste only takes off about 1-2 seconds max as well? The difference in casting time probably wouldn't be noticeable, not sure about the number for the MDB but I don't think resist petrify would proc often enough to be a mentionable advantage. At least, as far as the traits go.

[Serif]

Has anyone here actually tried NIN/RDM? The tone of the last few pages makes it sound like people do it pretty often, but I don't think I remember anyone posting actual first-hand experiences with it.

I'm not sure but Fast Cast with capped Haste only takes off about 1-2 seconds max as well? The difference in casting time probably wouldn't be noticeable, not sure about the number for the MDB but I don't think resist petrify would proc often enough to be a mentionable advantage. At least, as far as the traits go.

The only thing I know that NINs on our server use /RDM for is Khimaira. I think from one of our LS members parses, they wore full Evasion gear and Evaded I think around 70% and the other tank evaded 65%, this was with Capricco or whatever. This was an old school JP LS, not sure about Event or whomever but that is the only thing I know about /rdm on NIN, PLD/RDM on the other.

[cassiraa]

Has anyone here actually tried NIN/RDM? The tone of the last few pages makes it sound like people do it pretty often, but I don't think I remember anyone posting actual first-hand experiences with it.

I'm not sure but Fast Cast with capped Haste only takes off about 1-2 seconds max as well? The difference in casting time probably wouldn't be noticeable, not sure about the number for the MDB but I don't think resist petrify would proc often enough to be a mentionable advantage. At least, as far as the traits go.

A 10% MDB trait, and fast cast for fast hitting mobs. It's a fun setup but it doesn't have the powerhouse enmity of pld/nin or nin/drk. But it is just that: fun.

[Xavier]

Has anyone here actually tried NIN/RDM? The tone of the last few pages makes it sound like people do it pretty often, but I don't think I remember anyone posting actual first-hand experiences with it.

I'm not sure but Fast Cast with capped Haste only takes off about 1-2 seconds max as well? The difference in casting time probably wouldn't be noticeable, not sure about the number for the MDB but I don't think resist petrify would proc often enough to be a mentionable advantage. At least, as far as the traits go.

I only listed the petrify as an advantage since you don't really gain any useful traits from DRK sub at all.

I've never tried NIN/RDM, but I have done NIN/DRK, and I just don't see how there would be any noticeable difference in enmity so long as you aren't using stun for hate, and since people already say NIN/DRK can hold hate just fine w/o stunning, I don't see the point of it over NIN/RDM.

You give up souleater every 6 minutes, last resort every 5 minutes, in exchange for dispel (maybe something else too, idk) every xx seconds, etc, while gaining the small fast cast, the 10% MDB, and worthless resists.

I'm not going to claim its better because, like I said I haven't personally used it, but I can't think of any reason it wouldn't be better in stunless situations, not to mention the fact that RDM sub means you can toss out cure 3s on yourself as well, whereas DRK you can't. You'd also be gaining a weak stoneskin for the flares. It'd take a little longer to build the initial hate up too I guess, since you wouldn't be able to immediately hit last resort/souleater to get the ball rolling, but over the long run I just can't picture a big hate difference.

[Mashu]

Has anyone here actually tried NIN/RDM? The tone of the last few pages makes it sound like people do it pretty often, but I don't think I remember anyone posting actual first-hand experiences with it.

I'm not sure but Fast Cast with capped Haste only takes off about 1-2 seconds max as well? The difference in casting time probably wouldn't be noticeable, not sure about the number for the MDB but I don't think resist petrify would proc often enough to be a mentionable advantage. At least, as far as the traits go.

A 10% MDB trait, and fast cast for fast hitting mobs. It's a fun setup but it doesn't have the powerhouse enmity of pld/nin or nin/drk. But it is just that: fun.

I wouldn't quite make that assertion yet. I've observed the same ls Serif is referring to fight Cerberus with 2 nin/rdms and each had swapped out a good bit (around 10 from what I normally wear as /DRK) of enmity for evasion and evaded about 60-70% (just by eyeing it). If one can manage to sacrifice as much enmity as they did, and manage to keep hate (didn't see any draw-ins), you'd think its not too bad of a sub <.<.

Oh, how I need more hours in the day to level RDM to 37

[Lordwafik]

When rdm/nins tank, they rely on not getting hit to keep hate, which is the same thing as an evasion setup ninja does, however, you get the additional hate from spamming spells.

Once you reach a point in spamming, your hate stays the same and nothing can remove it aside from getting hit (I tested with a nin/drk, pld/nin, invincibles, etc. RDM/NIN stood way up). Just need all the haste gear you can wear, mix it with enmity gear, and you're pretty much good to go. Keep refresh up as sleeps can toy with MPK greatly.

Bind Blind Dispel Sleep Sleep2 should be plenty. Gravity doesn't give much hate, not worth spending MP on.

In the end its like NIN/DRK but no burst hate like Souleater / Last Resort.

[-Zer0-]

Has anyone here actually tried NIN/RDM? The tone of the last few pages makes it sound like people do it pretty often, but I don't think I remember anyone posting actual first-hand experiences with it.

I'm not sure but Fast Cast with capped Haste only takes off about 1-2 seconds max as well? The difference in casting time probably wouldn't be noticeable, not sure about the number for the MDB but I don't think resist petrify would proc often enough to be a mentionable advantage. At least, as far as the traits go.

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/7649/ninrdm1yq7.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/1272/ninrdm2vu0.jpg

I have, just not on Bahamut. I took different approaches, and tried out San line in these images to hold hate along with Bind and Sleep. I had to hold back against the other Nin/War in the long run because I was asked to duo tank.

The casting time really isn't significantly noticable, nor are the traits aside from MAB when you have the right gear to support it.

[Mcdohlz]

There's an LS on Gilgamesh that has an Aegis/dring pld, but has only beaten Bahamut once in like 7 tries.(And yeah, they have plenty of blms) They stopped going after he got his mask though, so now their members sell their Evokers to us

[Deacon]

too bad people on Unicorn dont really spam ENM's like they use to, was great buyin the orbs off random static groups that would get the drop every once in awhile

[Mashu]

Once you reach a point in spamming, your hate stays the same and nothing can remove it aside from getting hit

Or inactivity... which is why /WAR is inferior in hate generation compared to /DRK, even without stun in the repertoire.

In the end its like NIN/DRK but no burst hate like Souleater / Last Resort.

You don't -really- need burst hate like that if your hate (sans death) can't get reset.. suppose having those 2 JAs make for a nice safety net, granted.

I still don't see how a NIN without access to AV's (duh) or KB's loot can eat -flares... Wouldn't a PLD w/ rampart or RDM w/ MDB and stoneskin be, ultimately, more efficient tanks against Baha? I've not tried yet, with my -17% MDT in mostly AH-boughten gear

[RKenshin]

I still don't see how a NIN without access to AV's (duh) or KB's loot can eat -flares...

Removing Defending+Minerva's only results in a loss of -10% lol.. Neither of them are needed or really make all that much of a difference. Sure -10% is nice to have but it's certainly not a life or death thing.

In the screen shot of the damage I took from flares, posted on the last page... Megaflare was steady at 241, and Gigaflare at 646. The damage is usually static with all things remaining the same.

So, taking away the Defending Ring and the Minvera's Ring and replacing them with Merman's, the damage I take would be about 718 on Gigaflare and about 268 on Megaflare. An increase of 72 damage taken (less than a cure II) on Gigaflare and an increase of 26 damage taken (less than a cure I) on Megaflare, both of which still falling around or below the 50% mark in my max HP in that gear.

Even without the incredibly rare gear, that's still easily managable. Not even getting into the resists for <150 damage that seem to happen around 1/3rd of the time. None of the gear I have for +fire resist is hard to get either.

[Kirschy]

My gear is pretti much all AHable, not very expensive, and I have similar results that Ruke showed. When I get home I can post a SS of some flare damage from the runs we did last week and my setup. I don't think a single gigaflare landed for over 900. Most of the time I resisted and took 200s-400s. Honestly I attribute most of it to having a good support team. A WHM who is meritted/equipped for Barfira, a BRD keeping Carol up, and the alliance making sure I'm ready before they push each Flare goes a long way.

That being said, I also tank the normal melee hits with Pescatori, Arhat's+1 Gi/Jinpachi + Earth Staff which reduces the regular hits to around 200. I didn't bother to engage Bahamut(no parry /cry) and blinked about 80-85% of the hits(over the course of 3 runs). IMO that makes any Ninja easily capable of performing well in this BC.

[Minnich]

I still don't see how a NIN without access to AV's (duh) or KB's loot can eat -flares... Wouldn't a PLD w/ rampart or RDM w/ MDB and stoneskin be, ultimately, more efficient tanks against Baha? I've not tried yet, with my -17% MDT in mostly AH-boughten gear

I've tanked all of our B2s as NIN/WAR so far and have had no problems with Flares. Just with Merman ring/earrings and resentment cape that gives you -17% damage taken. Add on some MDB and fire+ and I usually take no more than 950 from gigaflares, and about 500 from megaflares. With about 1.6k hp, it's rather easy to handle flares as NIN/WAR, and hate is hardly a problem. We avg. about 30mins on our fights now.

Edit: I always make sure my WHM gives me shell4 before flares, but never for carols or barfira. We don't even have our BRD give songs to tanks because he usually ends up dying when he gets too close.

Also, thanks for the info. on NIN/DRK for this fight, I think I want to try it out next time. And I think -Zero- finally gave me a reason to possibly merit those san spells. Looks like an interesting idea for nin/rdm.

[Suiram]

I still don't see how a NIN without access to AV's (duh) or KB's loot can eat -flares...

Removing Defending+Minerva's only results in a loss of -10% lol.. Neither of them are needed or really make all that much of a difference. Sure -10% is nice to have but it's certainly not a life or death thing.

In the screen shot of the damage I took from flares, posted on the last page... Megaflare was steady at 241, and Gigaflare at 646. The damage is usually static with all things remaining the same.

So, taking away the Defending Ring and the Minvera's Ring and replacing them with Merman's, the damage I take would be about 718 on Gigaflare and about 268 on Megaflare. An increase of 72 damage taken (less than a cure II) on Gigaflare and an increase of 26 damage taken (less than a cure I) on Megaflare, both of which still falling around or below the 50% mark in my max HP in that gear.

Even without the incredibly rare gear, that's still easily managable. Not even getting into the resists for <150 damage that seem to happen around 1/3rd of the time. None of the gear I have for +fire resist is hard to get either.

Sorry to be a little pedantic here, but this reasoning isn't 100% right. Assuming that all the gear is the same besides the rings slot, and that both are getting shell 4 (I'm assuming it's not 5 because of the dispels, and a WHM having to run into range to reapply it every time), since two merman's rings = minerva ring in terms of damage reduction the difference is that of the d. ring (26/256 assuming it rounds up for magic damage the same way it has been shown to for physical damage). However, due to the way that magic damage -% gear stacks, this is actually more like a 15~16% reduction rather than a 10% reduction, and the damage from Gigaflares should be around 764 unresisted rather than 718.

In my view, Rukenshin's overall point still holds, but it's still important to keep in mind how this stuff stacks when considering questions like this, I think.

[Ohemgee]

Has anyone here actually tried NIN/RDM? The tone of the last few pages makes it sound like people do it pretty often, but I don't think I remember anyone posting actual first-hand experiences with it.

I'm not sure but Fast Cast with capped Haste only takes off about 1-2 seconds max as well? The difference in casting time probably wouldn't be noticeable, not sure about the number for the MDB but I don't think resist petrify would proc often enough to be a mentionable advantage. At least, as far as the traits go.

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/7649/ninrdm1yq7.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/1272/ninrdm2vu0.jpg

I have, just not on Bahamut. I took different approaches, and tried out San line in these images to hold hate along with Bind and Sleep. I had to hold back against the other Nin/War in the long run because I was asked to duo tank.

The casting time really isn't significantly noticable, nor are the traits aside from MAB when you have the right gear to support it.

San spells are some nice damage :O

[Not Kuno]

I'm not sure spamming :San spells on Bahamut would make your blms too happy.

[Suiram]

I'm not sure spamming :San spells on Bahamut would make your blms too happy.

It'd make me happy, if it was debuffing to the element I was casting. I have done bahamut with my own HNM LS, with our server's BLM merc group, and with a pickup group, and there is a noticeable difference in resists with the groups where the BRD is attempting to keep threnody on it, compared to when they aren't. None of the groups uses NIN, but I'd imagine it'd be similarly effective if they used all 3 tiers of Ninjitsu (or at least Ni and San) to keep his resistance down.