Discuss the second amendment here.

[Gregorio]

Also I love how the main argument is that these magical criminals will pop out of rainbows to bust caps in all the innocent Americans if guns are taken away. Brilliant.

You don't think this is happening now? Criminals with guns taking advantage of and killing innocent people?

They're not magical or imaginary at all, it's reality.

[crazyrabbit]

That perfect world will never come true and it is true that the people need to change. But everyone knows that this doestn work with many ppl. You will always fail to teach a part of the society how valuable a human life is.
And here comes my point, that it would be better if those ppl where the society failed cant get deadly weapons that easy.
You need to work on many different things to accomplish something in the fight against this problem. But just because one of those different things (like the fight against organised crime) isnt easy, most ppl dont even want to start anything.

On another note, when the goverment does not have to worry about its citizens arming themselves against it

Thats why you want a democraty. Just dont let that shit happen. To give up everything just because you fear a future problem wont help anyone.
And again, the US wont have a problem with small militia. Its the biggest army in the world, they lie about reasons to bomb other countrys and you think they will stop at their own population?

[Credos]

Thats why you want a democraty. Just dont let that shit happen. To give up everything just because you fear a future problem wont help anyone.
And again, the US wont have a problem with small militia. Its the biggest army in the world, they lie about reasons to bomb other countrys and you think they will stop at their own population?

The same could be said about many countries around the world.

Just curious, where are you from again?

[Gregorio]

Thats why you want a democraty. Just dont let that shit happen. To give up everything just because you fear a future problem wont help anyone.
And again, the US wont have a problem with small militia. Its the biggest army in the world, they lie about reasons to bomb other countrys and you think they will stop at their own population?

I love how you contrdict yourself in the time it took you to write 2 sentences. "Just don't let that shit happen", right to "you think they will stop at their own population?".

The whole point of that argument is that the government is absorbing more and more powers every day that they didn't used to have. Americans are losing more and more rights by the day. Is it THAT unreasonable, that even in a democracy where we shouldn't "let this shit happen" (but we are), that we would some day need to revolt? And to say the military would have no problem handling an armed citizenry is a laugh. How's that Iraq war goin again?

[crazyrabbit]

I dont get what you want to say with your first sentence.
Im from germany with an uncle in america, another uncly being in malaisa atm i think (he travels a lot, last time lybia i think) and many friends around the world. Just because i live here doesnt mean i can't know how live in an other country is <.<

edit* for greagorios post

Those two sentenced dont contradict themself. You should not let it happen and if it happens like you believe then it wont matter anyway.
In a democraty you have the right to stand up and say your opinion. If you dont use that right thats your problem. But again you just want to able to fight back, not changing anything, just revenge and gunfights.

I wont even start to coment on the Iraq war <.<

[MF Perm]

Because you know there aren't thousands of miles of land on the Mexican border that are handled by the Navy and Coast Guard.

Oh, I forgot EXP FTW!!!!

If you think the Navy is so great and catching ALL the smugglers, you need to have your head checked.

If you're going to try and winning an argument by taking something out of context, you should quit now.

But since you're so keen on responding with a "point", I'll make mine clearer for you.


Bringing up my experience in the Navy was to point out my experience with seeing how drugs are and can be smuggled into the country in contrast to guns.


Heroin, Cocaine, Marijuana - that can be super compressed or even diluted in the former twos cases to make is extremely easier to sneak into the country by ship or land, than enough guns to cause a problem. Unless you know of a technology that can turn guns into an undetectable and easy to transport block of iron and back to a gun again with no problem.


So again, the argument that if drugs can get in so easily the same will be with guns is BS. Street crime isn't from AK-47's coming in through another country, it's from domestically made guns that were purchased legally or hijacked and made their way onto the streets.


It's funny how people with no idea how crime works are suddenly experts on criminal theory the instant someone says to take away guns. Like all of the sudden satans criminal masterminds will dominate face and we will all suffer.

And to the dumb fucks bringing in unstable regions to the argument like how 10 year olds there have guns, just buy a fucking clue or gtfo, please.

[Credos]

I dont get what you want to say with your first sentence.
Im from germany with an uncle in america, another uncly being in malaisa atm i think (he travels a lot, last time lybia i think) and many friends around the world. Just because i live here doesnt mean i can't know how live in an other country is <.<

Funny that you talk about government wiping out their own people...

I've read quite a few of your posts and all you've done is bash America because we're so evil. Apparently cooking millions of people in a fuckin oven makes you ok though.

[MF Perm]

Also I love how the main argument is that these magical criminals will pop out of rainbows to bust caps in all the innocent Americans if guns are taken away. Brilliant.

You don't think this is happening now? Criminals with guns taking advantage of and killing innocent people?

They're not magical or imaginary at all, it's reality.

Which is the point of the argument, pal. It's the chicken or the egg here. My stance is no guns, alot less gun related deaths and crimes. Your stance is if guns go away legally, there will be a sudden influx of guns from elsewhere and crime will rise.


Welcome to the conversation, glad you could make it.

[Gregorio]

[quote=MF Perm]

Also I love how the main argument is that these magical criminals will pop out of rainbows to bust caps in all the innocent Americans if guns are taken away. Brilliant.

You don't think this is happening now? Criminals with guns taking advantage of and killing innocent people?

They're not magical or imaginary at all, it's reality.

Which is the point of the argument, pal. It's the chicken or the egg here. My stance is no guns, alot less gun related deaths and crimes. Your stance is if guns go away legally, there will be a sudden influx of guns from elsewhere and crime will rise.


Welcome to the conversation, glad you could make it.[/quote:ed0a7]

Thanks, good to be here, pal.

So you think saying "no guns!" will just make all the criminals turn in their illegally owned guns? The guns aren't suddenly coming from nowhere...they're already here, pal.

[Credos]

Because you know there aren't thousands of miles of land on the Mexican border that are handled by the Navy and Coast Guard.

Oh, I forgot EXP FTW!!!!

If you think the Navy is so great and catching ALL the smugglers, you need to have your head checked.

If you're going to try and winning an argument by taking something out of context, you should quit now.

But since you're so keen on responding with a "point", I'll make mine clearer for you.


Bringing up my experience in the Navy was to point out my experience with seeing how drugs are and can be smuggled into the country in contrast to guns.


Heroin, Cocaine, Marijuana - that can be super compressed or even diluted in the former twos cases to make is extremely easier to sneak into the country by ship or land, than enough guns to cause a problem. Unless you know of a technology that can turn guns into an undetectable and easy to transport block of iron and back to a gun again with no problem.


So again, the argument that if drugs can get in so easily the same will be with guns is BS. Street crime isn't from AK-47's coming in through another country, it's from domestically made guns that were purchased legally or hijacked and made their way onto the streets.


It's funny how people with no idea how crime works are suddenly experts on criminal theory the instant someone says to take away guns. Like all of the sudden satans criminal masterminds will dominate face and we will all suffer.

And to the dumb fucks bringing in unstable regions to the argument like how 10 year olds there have guns, just buy a fucking clue or gtfo, please.

My point has nothing to do with smuggling it in a diluted form, it's literally that people are paid to look the other way with just a shipment of Guns. It's not that they're going to put them in teddy bears a'la Traffic then soak them in water; suddenly BAM they are AK-47s.

[MF Perm]

[quote=Gregorio]

Also I love how the main argument is that these magical criminals will pop out of rainbows to bust caps in all the innocent Americans if guns are taken away. Brilliant.

You don't think this is happening now? Criminals with guns taking advantage of and killing innocent people?

They're not magical or imaginary at all, it's reality.

Which is the point of the argument, pal. It's the chicken or the egg here. My stance is no guns, alot less gun related deaths and crimes. Your stance is if guns go away legally, there will be a sudden influx of guns from elsewhere and crime will rise.


Welcome to the conversation, glad you could make it.

Thanks, good to be here, pal.

So you think saying "no guns!" will just make all the criminals turn in their illegally owned guns? The guns aren't suddenly coming from nowhere...they're already here, pal.[/quote:43784]

I believe in a previous post I conceded that obviously a spike in gun related crime will occur, but then anyone with a gun will be a red herring and stand out much brighter than your everyday citizen.


If I thought I faced a risk of dying for a chance of a ( in my opinion ) better future for the people of this country, then so be it.


Hey just out of curiosity, how many of you pro-gun people are Christians or believe in the Bible?

























But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

[MF Perm]

My point has nothing to do with smuggling it in a diluted form, it's literally that people are paid to look the other way with just a shipment of Guns. It's not that they're going to put them in teddy bears a'la Traffic then soak them in water; suddenly BAM they are AK-47s.

I agree with you that this is a plausible action and likely will occur, but there is definitely more of a moral quagmire for a person than drugs. The only reason drugs are related to crime is because they are unjustly and unreasonably illegal.

If we were an anti-gun country, there is alot more of an aftereffect of being the greedy prick that allows a gun smuggler to bring guns into the country, over the greedy prick that allows drugs in.

[ashke]

to Ashke

Does Wal-Mart cause violent crime when they sell firearms, too?

The ammunation used in the columbine killings where bought from the local wal-mart. Helping a killer is a crime isnt it?

So everyone that ever worked at Sports Authority should go to jail for selling baseball bats that were later used in a crime? Or Western Auto for tire irons? Or Country Kitchen for rolling pins and kitchen cutlery?

[crazyrabbit]

Sorry but i wasnt born when hitler decided to be a jackass about jews and i sure as hell wouldnt have helped him. Germanys government is stupdid too, i never said anything against that. They talk a fucking lot of bullshit without solving problems. I don't 'bash' america, i say how it is.

If you want to bring in history (because ww2 is history and all who still are alive from that time wont be able to start a new war) then we might as well consider vietnam, or korea, or desert storm? Or how about americas huge history of KKK and the black-white problem? America always had same amount of nazis than germany or italy.

We are talking about the present, so stop the history bullshit and change something.

Yes it is true that we guns get banned their would still be the illegal suply, and? Who says you cant fight those illegal weapon-market?
This would need to be the next step anyway, destroy the black market for those weapons. But that doesnt mean you shouldnt start somewhere else.


edit*

If you are that short-sightet that you compare guns with baseball bats or knifes then i feel sorry for you. That VTech idiot wouldnt have killed 32 people if he had only a knife or a baseball bat (which also is a lot more visible).

[Gregorio]

I believe in a previous post I conceded that obviously a spike in gun related crime will occur, but then anyone with a gun will be a red herring and stand out much brighter than your everyday citizen.


If I thought I faced a risk of dying for a chance of a ( in my opinion ) better future for the people of this country, then so be it.


Hey just out of curiosity, how many of you pro-gun people are Christians or believe in the Bible?

But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

I responded to you because you said this:

"Also I love how the main argument is that these magical criminals will pop out of rainbows to bust caps in all the innocent Americans if guns are taken away. Brilliant."

which you just bacially admitted would happen ("spike in gun related crime"). Yes, I know you then clarified long term etc (which I don't necessarily believe would fly as you expect it to), but short term then yes, magical criminals will come out of rainbows and bust caps in innocent americans.

EDIT: Oh, and turn the other cheek doesn't apply when there's a possibility that your life is on the line. You can't turn and offer your other life.

[BarthelloSylph]

Sorry but i wasnt born when hitler decided to be a jackass about jews and i sure as hell wouldnt have helped him. Germanys government is stupdid too, i never said anything against that. They talk a fucking lot of bullshit without solving problems. I don't 'bash' america, i say how it is.

If you want to bring in history (because ww2 is history and all who still are alive from that time wont be able to start a new war) then we might as well consider vietnam, or korea, or desert storm? Or how about americas huge history of KKK and the black-white problem? America always had same amount of nazis than germany or italy.

We are talking about the present, so stop the history bullshit and change something.

Yes it is true that we guns get banned their would still be the illegal suply, and? Who says you cant fight those illegal weapon-market?
This would need to be the next step anyway, destroy the black market for those weapons. But that doesnt mean you shouldnt start somewhere else.


edit*

If you are that short-sightet that you compare guns with baseball bats or knifes then i feel sorry for you. That VTech idiot wouldnt have killed 32 people if he had only a knife or a baseball bat (which also is a lot more visible).

I stopped reading your post after the part in bold. Understate much?

[Rammses]

I thought the internet was past the Hitler-derailing phase.

[crazyrabbit]

Would you feel better if i say Hitler killed millions of innocent people just because of their believes and to be able to blame someone to get more might? I dont want to play down what happend, but its history and ppl need to stop playing that card when it comes to problems in the present and future.
Cant you just get over a little stupid description and read the main argument of the post just to be a little smarter than i was when i wrote those few words without completly thinking about them?

[MF Perm]

I believe in a previous post I conceded that obviously a spike in gun related crime will occur, but then anyone with a gun will be a red herring and stand out much brighter than your everyday citizen.


If I thought I faced a risk of dying for a chance of a ( in my opinion ) better future for the people of this country, then so be it.


Hey just out of curiosity, how many of you pro-gun people are Christians or believe in the Bible?

But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

I responded to you because you said this:

"Also I love how the main argument is that these magical criminals will pop out of rainbows to bust caps in all the innocent Americans if guns are taken away. Brilliant."

which you just bacially admitted would happen ("spike in gun related crime"). Yes, I know you then clarified long term etc (which I don't necessarily believe would fly as you expect it to), but short term then yes, magical criminals will come out of rainbows and bust caps in innocent americans.

EDIT: Oh, and turn the other cheek doesn't apply when there's a possibility that your life is on the line. You can't turn and offer your other life.

Again context, the obvious consensus for pro-gun is that if citizens can't have guns, all of the sudden there will be all of these gun wielding criminals ruining the suburbs.


In my opinion there are obvious ways to not have a spike at all, but I feel that logically there will be an increase in "reports" of gun related crime.

If all the money pathetically dumped and wasted into the Drug War, was put into more of an anti-violence effort to back the restriction of gun rights; I feel there would be more of a police presence and training dollars for National Guard and Coast Guard to quell any seriously damaging repercussion for taking guns away from citizens.

Yes, I understand there are bad people that do bad things to get what they want. But I also believe that proper management can curb these problems alot better than just letting everyone arm themselves at will, which without a doubt has created a situation where people die more often in this country as a result, and not less.

[BarthelloSylph]

Tough to offer your other cheek when the bullet just exploded through both on the way to blowing a huge hole in the other side of your head.

If someone breaks into my house, I'm shooting at them. No warning shots. I won't shoot to kill but I won't feel bad if he dies. And I say that being against things like abortion and the death penalty. Why? Because all I want to do is protect myself and those I care about. Fetuses aren't threats. Criminals in maximum security prisons aren't threats (if the gov't does its job properly). A guy breaking into my house is a threat, and he will be treated like one.

Guns were made legal to protect yourself - the Consitution wanted the people to have the right to protect themselves from an authoritative government. Now we need guns to protect ourselves from criminals. Guns should be legal, albeit with heavy restrictions, and it won't change in the near future.

So if you don't like it, in the great words of South Park,

WHY DON'T YOU JUST GIT (THE FUCK) OUT?

There's a lot of countries where you can get your wish. In fact, there's a lot of liberal ass countries in Europe that could make good use of your propensity to be a fucking wuss (France comes to mind).