Discuss the second amendment here.

[ashke]

edit*

If you are that short-sightet that you compare guns with baseball bats or knifes then i feel sorry for you. That VTech idiot wouldnt have killed 32 people if he had only a knife or a baseball bat (which also is a lot more visible).

I didn't say they were comparable. It's OK that you disagree with me, but don't put words in my mouth.

You said selling a product made the seller responsible if the product was later used a weapon by the buyer, and that doing such was a criminal action. I provided additional examples of the result of such legislation.

Also, I asked you not to insult me, and I've tried to be very respectful of you while discussing contrary opinions.

[Credos]

Sorry but i wasnt born when hitler decided to be a jackass about jews and i sure as hell wouldnt have helped him. Germanys government is stupdid too, i never said anything against that. They talk a fucking lot of bullshit without solving problems. I don't 'bash' america, i say how it is.

My point is that Government in general is fucked up, it's too easy to pick apart everything that a country has done (just as I did), and make someone look foolish. You state that America is such a horrible place, have you ever been here? I've been to many places around the world and I can safely say that I feel America is the best. Not because of some pride that I have about being from here (But I am proud), but because if you looked past all the shit in the news you'd see that it's a good country. It's not true everywhere in the world where you can go out, have a great time and not worry about people blowing themselves up.

I'm sure places like North Korea, China, etc are places that people like to live in, or else they wouldn't live there. But there is fucked up shit going on in both. It's easy to pick apart a country from the media alone; shit I think America looks stupid in the news. But there is a lot more than meets the eye that makes America the place it is.

[crazyrabbit]

I didnt want to personaly insult you, i hardly ever want that at all.
And what i said was more meant as a question to let ppl start to think about this rather than getting hard answers.

Wal-mart sold bullets that later killed the students of columbine. Thats a fact and with that in mind i ask you, if ppl who help other kill someone or commit other crimes get a punishment too. Then why is it ok that wal-mart and other stores can sell the things that those criminals need. Its almost exactly the same but somehow its ok for everyone.

Yes, the boss guys who decided to sell bullets in their stores should get punished. They make it easier for other ppl to hurt me or my family.

[The Blackrose]

[quote=Rammses]

You keep saying European nations have gun bans and then want to say there exists a lower gun-related crime rate. Two questions:

1.) How much crime is there involving another medium, such as knives, blunt weapons, hand to hand, etc?

Hard to find such statistics...

2.) Is this conjecture restricted solely to European nations that do not have a firearms ban as law?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...by_murder_rate

Bottom table. Look at Switzerland and Finland for example, two of the richest countries in the world with very few social problems.

In Finland there are over two million licensed firearms (which is more per capita than in the US).

...

The gun policy in Switzerland is unique in Europe. The personal weapon of militia personnel is kept at home as part of the military obligations. This, in addition to liberal gun laws and strong shooting traditions, has led to a very high gun count per capita.

Sup.[/quote:dba44]

Thanks for the statistical links, unfortunately I have a few classes in about 15 minutes so I won't be able to read them over until later. Thank you, regardless.

[Chips]

Wow you must be smarter than the rest of us.

I know this was a while back, but I never said anything like this at all. You're taking this too seriously, I wasn't stepping on anyone's toes; I was simply stating my opinion on this matter.

[MF Perm]

Tough to offer your other cheek when the bullet just exploded through both on the way to blowing a huge hole in the other side of your head.

If someone breaks into my house, I'm shooting at them. No warning shots. I won't shoot to kill but I won't feel bad if he dies. And I say that being against things like abortion and the death penalty. Why? Because all I want to do is protect myself and those I care about. Fetuses aren't threats. Criminals in maximum security prisons aren't threats (if the gov't does its job properly). A guy breaking into my house is a threat, and he will be treated like one.

Guns were made legal to protect yourself - the Consitution wanted the people to have the right to protect themselves from an authoritative government. Now we need guns to protect ourselves from criminals. Guns should be legal, albeit with heavy restrictions, and it won't change in the near future.

So if you don't like it, in the great words of South Park,

WHY DON'T YOU JUST GIT (THE FUCK) OUT?

There's a lot of countries where you can get your wish. In fact, there's a lot of liberal ass countries in Europe that could make good use of your propensity to be a fucking wuss (France comes to mind).

Those confounded pussies worrying about innocent people dying. They should be fucking shot.

[BarthelloSylph]

Innocent people die all the time. It's an unfortunate aspect of life. It's in our best interests to try and stop it when we can (an argument of pro-life supporters).

When you talk about banning guns, you could potentially cut down on certain crimes. But you are a fool if you think that banning guns will keep guns out of criminals hands. A fool, M F Perm. And as a result of banning guns, when someone breaks into my house, I won't have one. And as a result... you guessed it.

An innocent person will die.

Don't make the logical leap that guns = innocent people dying. Only a fool would do that. A complete fool. Things can be related, but often times they have a different impact than we initially anticipate. Banning guns won't make the world a safer place to live. It'll just make killing easier for those looking to kill. Need an example? Check out our recent events.

[crazyrabbit]

You always stop at the "Then i wont have guns but the bad ppl still do". Who says you cant fight against the black market?
Ban guns and use the money from the gun-lobby and those companys which produce the weapons to support a better war against illegal weapon-market. That should be enough support to get some nice results. Those ppl only want money anyway, so it shouldnt matter if they arm little kids or some police force that keeps the country safe.

Do you realy think it would be better if every single student had a weapon? Why not make it that nobody of them hase one. You get the same result, less crazy guys murdering many ppl, but with a lot less danger of someone going apeshit and killing his classmate.

Only complete fools stop thinking when they dont like one of the steps to reach the goal.

to Credos

I did not say that america was a horrible place, i even think its a nice country with some realy beautifull places (nature and citys). But that doesnt mean i have to agree with everything. Same like it doesnt mean that i think america is horible just because i point out some problems.

Yes many governments are fucked up, but hey. You are america, you can acomplish everything.

[BarthelloSylph]

You always stop at the "Then i wont have guns but the bad ppl still do". Who says you cant fight against the black market?
Ban guns and use the money from the gun-lobby and those companys which produce the weapons to support a better war against illegal weapon-market. That should be enough support to get some nice results. Those ppl only want money anyway, so it shouldnt matter if they arm little kids or some police force that keeps the country safe.

Do you realy think it would be better if every single student had a weapon? Why not make it that nobody of them hase one. You get the same result, less crazy guys murdering many ppl, but with a lot less danger of someone going apeshit and killing his classmate.

Only complete fools stop thinking when they dont like one of the steps to reach the goal.

to Credos

I did not say that america was a horrible place, i even think its a nice country with some realy beautifull places (nature and citys). But that doesnt mean i have to agree with everything. Same like it doesnt mean that i think america is horible just because i point out some problems.

Yes many governments are fucked up, but hey. You are america, you can acomplish everything.

This is actually the argument for nuclear proliferation - give every country the ability to make nukes, and no one will use them, because destruction is self assured.

But what if a rogue group got one? One that had no concern for their own lives. They would nuke America and not worry about the consequences. You could make it easy or hard for them to get a nuke. If they get one, they will launch it. Or hijack a plane, they will crash it. There's no reasoning with them.

Same with this kid yesterday. You could try and take all the guns away, or you could give everyone a gun. This kid still does this. You can't stop people who don't care about themselves or anyone else. All you can hope to do is nip it in the bud, like if someone had reported him because of the plays, or if someone had handled 9/11 intel differently.

Guns have been legal and easily obtainable since this country's inception. They are harder to obtain now than before, thanks to restrictions, but it's still not hard. So, if the guns have gotten harder to obtain, why has there been "more gun crime???" It's not the guns, it's the culture and the society. It's changing, and if we want to fight back we need to fight the problem, not the side effect.

[crazyrabbit]

Wouldnt it be better if that group couldnt get a nuke?
And wouldnt be harder for them to get one if everyone fought against those weapons instead of giving them the chance to get one at every corner.

Who even says that it would be safe if everyone had the same weapon. It could still happen that someone made an accident and a huge chaos breaks through. Is it realy peace if everyone is just scared of everyone else?

Yes a huge part of the problem is the society. But it is beyond the point that you could solve the issue there. There are just to many ignorant and stubborn people out there (didnt realy want to say idiots). Other things need to be done to get down to a point where normal communication is posible again.
I dont say that it is useless to try with commincation. Infact this would need to be done all the time while other actions are taken to solve some of the base problems (ppl wanting to kill).

[Beckwin]

No one is saying an across the board ban on guns would end gun-related crimes. Just saying that it would cut them down.

The whole "you're a pussy if you don't want people to get shot" and "if you don't like it, get out" is the kind of shit that's wrong with American society. Lots of arrogant, scared, paranoid, and proud motherfuckers getting off to fallacious machismo and faux superiority.

[Omaedon]

The Gospel Truth

Exactly. Everytime something like this happens, people go into blame mode, blaming any and everything. Don't sit around scared because someone owns a gun, play video games, or listens to a particular style of music. Having the government regulate and limit these won't stop the fact that people will always say and do fucked up things to one another.

Nobody can stop people from being horrible to each other; and that kid didn't just snap like that for no reason. Also, between the writings, the fact that he was suffering from depression and was on anti depressant medication, SOMEONE should have had the foresight to predict his downward spiral and get that boy some help.

This is why VTech got shot up, and similarly Columbine before it; the people around him either contributed to driving him off the edge, or simply sat by idly and were eventually and unfortunately engulfed by his rage. People should think about incidents like these the next time they decide to be an asshole to someone, or stupidly ignore people with tell-tale signs of being on the edge.

How he obtained the gun ceased to matter when reached his breaking point and plotted the plan out, because legally or illegally, he still would have sought that gun out.

[Viena]

What is the difference between allowing every idiot to get a gun, and wanting every country to have nuclear weaponry?

[MF Perm]

Innocent people die all the time. It's an unfortunate aspect of life. It's in our best interests to try and stop it when we can (an argument of pro-life supporters).

When you talk about banning guns, you could potentially cut down on certain crimes. But you are a fool if you think that banning guns will keep guns out of criminals hands. A fool, M F Perm. And as a result of banning guns, when someone breaks into my house, I won't have one. And as a result... you guessed it.

An innocent person will die.

Don't make the logical leap that guns = innocent people dying. Only a fool would do that. A complete fool. Things can be related, but often times they have a different impact than we initially anticipate. Banning guns won't make the world a safer place to live. It'll just make killing easier for those looking to kill. Need an example? Check out our recent events.

The logical leap is that easy access to guns = more innocent people dying than necessary. Making the logical leap that just because the public in general doesn't have easy access to guns = inspired criminals to break into your house and shoot you makes you a paranoid fool.

I don't own a gun. I've never been accosted on the streets or been held at gunpoint in my home. No one knows if I do or don't have a gun, and obviously the fact that people MIGHT POSSIBLY have a gun doesn't seem to stop violent crimes from occurring, now does it?

So in all of that name calling and nonsensical suggestion I'm looking very hard for a valid point, seeing as nations like Japan even the police that roam the street don't carry guns and they have one of the lowest rates of violence in the world.

The easy access to guns to the public in general is what puts guns in criminal hands. Even a rational person can become prone to irrational behavior that can threaten someones life in the climate we live in as far as gun control.

It's not only criminals that kill people with guns, this guy that went on a rampage wasn't a criminal until he killed someone.

So yes, I do think that abolishing guns will keep guns out of potential criminals hands, this is a very logically produced thought and statement, not as foolish and paranoid as assuming the boogieman criminals will take ur gunz awayz and kill u ded lol.

[crazyrabbit]

The first is a slowly process of ppl killing ppl while the 2nd goes BOOM and shit hits the fan.

[divisortheory]

What is the difference between allowing every idiot to get a gun, and wanting every country to have nuclear weaponry?

I'm not sure, but I think the difference is one of scale.

[Khamsin]

Are there any statistics that show the percentage of criminals (who engage in a violent gun-related crime) that are professionals with underground connections versus an average citizen that went off his rocker?

If its true that most guns involved in violent crimes were originally obtained legally by someone, then outlawing guns would indeed mean only criminals have guns. But only those with connections who know how to obtain them, which I assume wouldn't be everybody.

So instead of a random average guy getting emo and finding a gun on a whim to blast people with, it'd be limited to people with connections and forethought to plan such crimes. I'd expect the amount of random spontaneous crimes commited by individuals who snapped would go down, since the average person won't have any connections or know where to find illegal firearms. Given time and research they probably could, but by the time a person does that, they'll have given more thought to their actions. Hopefully it would cut the crime down to just those who are determined to plan and carry out such premeditated murders, rather than someone who decides on a whim he needs beer money so he's gonna find a gun and go rob the convenience store.

If crime is limited to professionals and people with connections, chances are they're not going to place themselves in a compromising position by allowing you to shoot at them. They won't be the kind of guys to stumble around in the dark hunting for CDs. They'll be the kind of guys to case your house to know when you are gone (if they want to steal) or when you are alone (if they want to kill) and make sure you don't see it coming.

In those cases, against the kind of guys who are able to acquire illegal firearms, a gun wouldn't really help you.

[Lynsy]

What is the difference between allowing every idiot to get a gun, and wanting every country to have nuclear weaponry?

Approximately 215,000 people died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. Approximately 30,000 people die in the US from guns each year. It takes over 7 years of gun deaths to total the number of deaths nuclear weapons did in a few seconds.

[BarthelloSylph]

What is the difference between allowing every idiot to get a gun, and wanting every country to have nuclear weaponry?

I'm not sure, but I think the difference is one of scale.

The point is this: if everyone had a gun, even if they were dumb, they would rephrase from attacking one another - why? Self preservation. Even dumb people know that death ain't a good thing.

This goes for nukes, you nuke someone, you get wiped off the face of the earth, ballgame. Death ain't worth it to sane people.

Then there's the people that don't care about dying and are intent on hurting. Cue yesterday. Cue Columbine. Cue 9/11. The best you can do is try to stop THEM - not the means by which they do their crimes. Guns are safely used by many. Flights are very useful to many. Nuclear power and technology can be helpful to many. To stop all of these SIDE EFFECTS because you don't want to solve the problem is lazy. The atoms aren't killing people, the airplanes aren't flying themselves, the guns aren't pulling the trigger. In each of these instances, SOMEONE COULD HAVE STOPPED THEM BUT DID NOT.

Solve the problem, not the side effect. End of story.

[MF Perm]

Are there any statistics that show the percentage of criminals (who engage in a violent gun-related crime) that are professionals with underground connections versus an average citizen that went off his rocker?

If its true that most guns involved in violent crimes were originally obtained legally by someone, then outlawing guns would indeed mean only criminals have guns. But only those with connections who know how to obtain them, which I assume wouldn't be everybody.

So instead of a random average guy getting emo and finding a gun on a whim to blast people with, it'd be limited to people with connections and forethought to plan such crimes. I'd expect the amount of random spontaneous crimes commited by individuals who snapped would go down, since the average person won't have any connections or know where to find illegal firearms. Given time and research they probably could, but by the time a person does that, they'll have given more thought to their actions. Hopefully it would cut the crime down to just those who are determined to plan and carry out such premeditated murders, rather than someone who decides on a whim he needs beer money so he's gonna find a gun and go rob the convenience store.

If crime is limited to professionals and people with connections, chances are they're not going to place themselves in a compromising position by allowing you to shoot at them. They won't be the kind of guys to stumble around in the dark hunting for CDs. They'll be the kind of guys to case your house to know when you are gone (if they want to steal) or when you are alone (if they want to kill) and make sure you don't see it coming.

In those cases, against the kind of guys who are able to acquire illegal firearms, a gun wouldn't really help you.

This false logic is incomprehensible. Criminals are everywhere waiting for you to not have a gun so they can harm you. Happens all the time, gosh.


/off