Discuss the second amendment here.

[ashke]

Sigh i give up to discuss such things with americans. You are just to ignorant and stubborn that you dont want to see the whole problem and the different ways to solve it. Even tho i hate to say it but i wish that you experience such a tragedy in your own family to finaly wake up and realize that you try to defend the weapons that caused your beloved to die.

please give up.

you don't understand how awful being a victim truly is, and how there are no 'different ways to solve' someone that wants to hurt you for their own sick, twisted pleasure.

I could only wish that a crimeless utopia existed where there were no evil people.

Sadly, we are not 100% protected, and it's our own responsibility to ensure the safety of our loved ones.

[crazyrabbit]

you don't understand how awful being a victim truly is

take that back...
i understand that you dont know anything about me or my past, but take that shit back because i fucking know how it is

You told a nice story how you got beat up by some guys and how you had some time in hospital and all that shit. Now imagin those guys having guns and using them. Any other words?
People need to stop being scared to hell and finaly work on problems instead of just making sure you can hit back.[/quote]

[The Blackrose]

Sigh i give up to discuss such things with americans. You are just to ignorant and stubborn that you dont want to see the whole problem and the different ways to solve it. Even tho i hate to say it but i wish that you experience such a tragedy in your own family to finaly wake up and realize that you try to defend the weapons that caused your beloved to die.

You're just as ignorant as the person you are attempting to argue with.

All throughout both this thread and the VT thread, I've heard the same shit repeated over and over: "Great Britian this, Sweden that. Ignorant Americans, etc." Well guess what, good for Europe. Too bad that Europe != United States. Ergo, apples and oranges, etc.

The day some of you people can find some instrument to pry the head out of your smug rear and realize you're dealing with different environments beyond the realm of gun control, I get the feeling we're going to have an issue involving the breaking of one of the seals of the Apocalypse. But until that day, please feel free to continue spouting off your fallacies because I need a continually refreshing source of humor.

[Sirenia]

Making guns illegal will NOT stop people from getting them, that is the whole point.

crazyrabbit, answer me this, if someone is in your house rapping someone you love, or has a gun to thier head ready to pull the trigger. I'm sure as hell you'd wish you had a gun to shoot that person. If you value anything, if you value your own life, you would do anything to defend it. And don't tell me the intruder would not have a gun, because they will, if it were illegal or not.

If my son broke into someones house, then he deserved what he got coming to him, and that means I am a fucking retard that didn't raise my son right.

And don't talk shit about fucking Americans, you're a fucking pussy who just WISHED for my future step-son to get shot to death. Do us all a favor and go commit suicide to your emo self.

[Raineer]

But you guys dont want to make your citiy more safe, you just want to be able to shoot back. "He comes into my house, i hurt him" thats your way to deal with problems, the easiest and most stupid way.

I'd like you to post how you would deal with someone coming in your house then.

Post now...I'm waiting

All you guys can do is post happy-smiley shit and ignore reality. If my son decides to break into a house and meets someone like me, that's unfortunate. All I can do as a parent is raise him the best I can, which I can control. I can also control the lives of who breaks into my house.

You can control nothing, you sit back and just let shit happen right?

Still waiting to know how you'd handle it. If someone breaks in and takes your child they're just walking outside without a fight. And when that criminal rapes your daughter I hope you're "man enough" to explain you allowed it to happen because you're a gigantic pussy.

[crazyrabbit]

You just said yourself that it would be ok if your son dies because he wantet to steal some shit...
And you tell me to kill myself?

No i wouldnt wish i had a gun. I would wish such shit didnt happen in the place where i live (and i would beat that person up with other stuff, try raping someone and holding a weapon)

Yes it wont stop ppl getting guns illegal. And? Why is not good for you to make it fucking harder for those ppl? Why do you want even more guys with guns breaking into your house?
You are the idiot who wants to shoot down other ppl because he is fucking scared of his life and property and you call me a pussy? Do you guys even read what you write?

[Raineer]

You just said yourself that it would be ok if your son dies because he wantet to steal some shit...
And you tell me to kill myself?

No i wouldnt wish i had a gun. I would wish such shit didnt happen in the place where i live (and i would beat that person up with other stuff, try raping someone and holding a weapon)

Yes it wont stop ppl getting guns illegal. And? Why is not good for you to make it fucking harder for those ppl? Why do you want even more guys with guns breaking into your house?
You are the idiot who wants to shoot down other ppl because he is fucking scared of his life and property and you call me a pussy? Do you guys even read what you write?

All kidding aside, you're making NO sense. Just stop posting.

"Idiot" does not define one that will defend his family. "Idiot" describes the guy in the corner with his fingers in his ears going LALALALA BAD PEOPLEZ DONT EXIST

Still waiting for what you'd do. You'd beat them up with other stuff? You charging a guy holding a gun with a lamp?

[ashke]

you don't understand how awful being a victim truly is

take that back...
i understand that you dont know anything about me or my past, but take that shit back because i fucking know how it is

You told a nice story how you got beat up by some guys and how you had some time in hospital and all that shit. Now imagin those guys having guns and using them. Any other words?
People need to stop being scared to hell and finaly work on problems instead of just making sure you can hit back.

I won't take it back.

If you want to state how your personal experiences have converted evil to good and stopped a violent crime via non-confrontational pacifism, I'm all ears.

As to your hypothetical, now imagine the bar owner firing a round into the air from his legally registered firearms. Or anyone else using their legally registered concealed weapons. Any other words?

[The Blackrose]

Do you guys even read what you write?

Pot, kettle, yatta yatta.

[Kazen]

You just said yourself that it would be ok if your son dies because he wantet to steal some shit...
And you tell me to kill myself?

No i wouldnt wish i had a gun. I would wish such shit didnt happen in the place where i live (and i would beat that person up with other stuff, try raping someone and holding a weapon)

Yes it wont stop ppl getting guns illegal. And? Why is not good for you to make it fucking harder for those ppl? Why do you want even more guys with guns breaking into your house?
You are the idiot who wants to shoot down other ppl because he is fucking scared of his life and property and you call me a pussy? Do you guys even read what you write?

Do you ever read what you write? After reading your posts it leaves me with a feeling of wanting to bang my head off the wall.

[crazyrabbit]

I never fucking said i wouldnt do anything, you just asumed that shit in weak attempt to let me look like a dreaming idiot. My post makes sense but you dont want to understand them and just talk this kiddy shit.
If someone wants to hurt my family i will do my best to stop him. There are always posibiltys because no fucking criminal is solid snake. Even if they have a gun that doesnt mean he is invincible and i would be proud of getting a flesh wound while saving my family instead of just taking other lives.

You are an idiot because you let this shit happen in the first place. Because you dont want to do anything against criminals. You just want to be able to fight back and kill killers. You whine that you are so scared about your family but you dont want to change anything. You get a gun and feel happy and safe in your little dream world while other ppl get shot with guns that they were able to get because of you.

You want to know what happend to me? I drove in a car with a friend when some other guys in car startet to follow us. My friend has his own firm and aparently had some trouble with those guys. They tried to kick us from the streets, what they even acomplished. My friend and i hide in a backstreet while those guys with baseball bats and knifes hunt us. In the end my friend went to hospital for 2 weeks, i had some light injurys and one of those guys died. The fight was to fast to remember exactly but it was over after that one guy went down.
And another thing that happend to me is that i lost a family member due to a gun-shooting. I realy dont feel like telling the whole story but that guy who shot her down got the weapon legal and was "a very nice person" in his neighborhood.

[Rammses]

All throughout both this thread and the VT thread, I've heard the same shit repeated over and over: "Great Britian this, Sweden that. Ignorant Americans, etc." Well guess what, good for Europe. Too bad that Europe != United States. Ergo, apples and oranges, etc.

The day some of you people can find some instrument to pry the head out of your smug rear and realize you're dealing with different environments beyond the realm of gun control

That's a very naive statement. The gun crime rate is much lower in the european slums than the american slums, and the same goes for every other area of the society. Gun crime specifically is not a social problem, crime in general is.

Is anyone of you pro-gun people going to try to explain why the gun crime rate is much higher in america than in other similar social environments?

[Sirenia]

You just said yourself that it would be ok if your son dies because he wantet to steal some shit...
And you tell me to kill myself?

No i wouldnt wish i had a gun. I would wish such shit didnt happen in the place where i live (and i would beat that person up with other stuff, try raping someone and holding a weapon)

Yes it wont stop ppl getting guns illegal. And? Why is not good for you to make it fucking harder for those ppl? Why do you want even more guys with guns breaking into your house?
You are the idiot who wants to shoot down other ppl because he is fucking scared of his life and property and you call me a pussy? Do you guys even read what you write?

If someone is so fucking stupid to BREAK and ENTER someones house, then yes they deserve what the owner of the said house decides what to do with them. Guess what, it is not your fucking house, so don't enter it. Is that so hard to understand? It all has to do about morals, don't take what isn't yours. I told you to kill yourself because you just told Raineer you wish for his son to get shot to death, what part of that don't you understand?

I think we all wish that stuff like this didn't happen, but it does, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. This is not a perfect world, and it will always be that way.

Are you fucking stupid? Wait I'll answer that question for you. Yes, you are. A person can fuck another person while holding a handgun, or a person can force another person to do something while holding a gun to thier head, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

You are the idiot who wants to shoot down other ppl because he is fucking scared of his life and property and you call me a pussy? Do you guys even read what you write?

How am I a pussy because I would defend my life, my home, and those I loved? That makes me a pussy? Maybe you don't know the meaning of such word. I know exactly what I wrote, maybe you should read yours again.

[Kazen]

So you generalize your basis just off that? I'll admit guns do some bad, but they can do alot of good if used right as well. No one says you have to shoot anyone because you have a gun, just pointing it is enough to scare most people away.

[Beckwin]

You're dogshit, Raineer. You're a pussy for wanting minor felons to be executed. It takes a much bigger man to avoid violence if at all possible. There's no problem in protecting the lives of you and your loved ones, but putting property over anyone's life (including your own, since forcing a confrontation could get you killed as well)? You're a materialistic piece of shit.

You think I support robbery because I don't think robbers should be killed? Get fucking real you ignorant piece of shit.

You want someone to break into my place and steal my shit? Thanks, asshole. I live alone in a studio. I'm pretty much fucked if someone breaks in with a weapon, especially a firearm. There isn't much distance between where I'd be sleeping and the door/window. If someone breaks in, I'm brawling, not much of a choice is most scenarios I can think of. That being said, my personal belongings would be the least of my concerns in that situation. You can buy things you lose, but you can't buy life.

[Khamsin]

No i wouldnt wish i had a gun. I would wish such shit didnt happen in the place where i live

Because when somebody is in your home, wishing they weren't will make them go away.

I think there's two parts to this problem.

1) What's the best way to keep this from happening in the first place?
2) What's the best way to stop it when it does happen?

There's a lot to be said for preaching peace through education, rehabilitation, and other non-violent pro-active methods. What we do now may have an impact on future generations, and that's good.

But if somebody threatens you, you're faced with the situation and you must act. You won't necessarily know if the intruder intends to harm you, or if he even has a weapon. You might not even know the difference between a grown man and a 15-year-old kid depending on the circumstances. He might be intent on killing you, or he might be scared shitless and run the moment you threaten him. He might have two buddies around the corner who will shoot back. You just don't know, and you can't really afford to wait to know.

I can't say how I'd handle it, or what the appropriate action would be since its a tough situation. But I am pretty sure the best outcome, whatever it may be, won't be reached by standing there wishing they hadn't come to your home in the first place.

[ashke]

You are an idiot because you let this shit happen in the first place. Because you dont want to do anything against criminals. You just want to be able to fight back and kill killers. You whine that you are so scared about your family but you dont want to change anything. You get a gun and feel happy and safe in your little dream world while other ppl get shot with guns that they were able to get because of you.

Since when did my owning a gun to protect my family = me wanting to kill a criminal? Or doing nothing to support law enforcement.

I work w/ law enforcement all the time and am actively involved in campus security for the educational institution I work for.

__

Also, 'guns they were able to get from you' let's assume criminals CAN'T get guns legally, and have knives instead.

I have guns, they have guns = level playing field
I have knife, they have knife = level playing field

Now, what happens when you criminalize gun ownership?

I have knife, they have gun = not level playing field.

__

Sorry about your incident with your friend (what do you mean by 'firm?') and for your loss.

Please understand I'm discussing the issue, and haven't called you any names. I would appreciate if ALL posters in this thread did the same.

I just disagree that criminalizing gun ownership would result in a lower MORTALITY or VIOLENT CRIME rates.

Someone bent on hurting you is going to find a way to do it, and illegal weapons are fairly simple to obtain. Making it harder to legally defend yourself seems, literally, self-limiting.

BTW: I'm more than willing to put myself on the line and take one for a loved one, and it's one of the reasons I've trained myself in various combat methods. Don't confuse my willingness to use guns as cowardice, I just wish to be on the same playing field as a theoretical criminal.

[crazyrabbit]

Because when somebody is in your home, wishing they weren't will make them go away

No i wouldnt wish i had a gun. I would wish such shit didnt happen in the place where i live (and i would beat that person up with other stuff, try raping someone and holding a weapon)

and i would be proud of getting a flesh wound while saving my family instead of just taking other lives.

stop that shit with quoting single sentences, because thats what littel kids do <.<

I told you to kill yourself because you just told Raineer you wish for his son to get shot to death, what part of that don't you understand?

And he himself said that it would be OK if his son died, because he would kill any intruder so his son should be killed too if he does such a minor crime.So i shall kill myself because i say the same than him? Then he should go kill himself too, right?

think we all wish that stuff like this didn't happen, but it does, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. This is not a perfect world, and it will always be that way.

You CANT stop it in 1 or 2 days, i always agreed with that. But why the fuck dont you want to work one it? Why do you just want your gun to be able to take revenge instead of trying to make it better?
While you want guns to protect yourself and your family, other ppl (those crazy asshats) can buy the same weapons. You defend what put you in danger in the first place. Are you guys so stupid to not be able to realize this point?
Maybe if i say it with a little story.

That one dad wants to protect his son, so he buys a weapon. 2 years later, the son moved to an other state. The dad becomes old and maybe doesnt have much money. So he decide to sell his gun at a pawn shop.
A day later some 18 year old guy buys that weapon, drives to your home and shots your wife and your children. You have a gun so you can kill him, but your family will still be gone, because an other person wantet a weapon to protect.

(this is a fictional story thats only use is visualisation on how something can be good for one person while causing harm to another)

[The Blackrose]

You're dogshit, Raineer. You're a pussy for wanting minor felons to be executed. It takes a much bigger man to avoid violence if at all possible. There's no problem in protecting the lives of you and your loved ones, but putting property over anyone's life (including your own, since forcing a confrontation could get you killed as well)? You're a materialistic piece of shit.

You think I support robbery because I don't think robbers should be killed? Get fucking real you ignorant piece of shit.

You want someone to break into my place and steal my shit? Thanks, asshole. I live alone in a studio. I'm pretty much fucked if someone breaks in with a weapon, especially a firearm. There isn't much distance between where I'd be sleeping and the door/window. If someone breaks in, I'm brawling, not much of a choice is most scenarios I can think of. That being said, my personal belongings would be the least of my concerns in that situation. You can buy things you lose, but you can't buy life.

Are you nucking futs? Serious question. Because either that was an well-executed troll or an above-and-beyond fucking retarded statement.

That's a very naive statement. The gun crime rate is much lower in the european slums than the american slums, and the same goes for every other area of the society. Gun crime specifically is not a social problem, crime in general is.

You keep saying European nations have gun bans and then want to say there exists a lower gun-related crime rate. Two questions:

1.) How much crime is there involving another medium, such as knives, blunt weapons, hand to hand, etc?
2.) Is this conjecture restricted solely to European nations that do not have a firearms ban as law?

And by the way, I'm looking for hard statistics, not anecdotes.

[Beckwin]

Someone bent on hurting you is going to find a way to do it

That's the truth, and there's really only so much you can do to stop it from happening, whether or not you have a gun. If you're direly worried about your and your family's safety night in and night out, you should probably just move. Otherwise you sit up all night watching security feeds with a shotgun in your lap and spend your weekends teaching your kids how to shoot the guns under their beds.

Look at the shit that's been posted in this topic. People advocating executing minor felons and playing Solid Snake/Rin-Tin-Tin when you hear a bump in the night. You might feel like Billy Badass holding your firearm, but its no guarantee of safety even in your own home, much less when you venture out into the world everyday.

I'm going to have to agree that tighter gun control would lower gun-related crimes. The US isn't that much different from other western nations.