Discuss the second amendment here.

[ashke]

That one dad wants to protect his son, so he buys a weapon. 2 years later, the son moved to an other state. The dad becomes old and maybe doesnt have much money. So he decide to sell his gun at a pawn shop.
A day later some 18 year old guy buys that weapon, drives to your home and shots your wife and your children. You have a gun so you can kill him, but your family will still be gone, because an other person wantet a weapon to protect.

You do realize you have to file paperwork when purchasing a firearm in a pawn shop? It's just cheaper.

Does Wal-Mart cause violent crime when they sell firearms, too?


EDIT: and, you do realize that the whole basis of this fictional story is based on the fact the father sells the gun for money. If he was rich, the wife would have the gun, thusly giving an opportunity for the wife to defend herself and his children.

[The Blackrose]

Does Wal-Mart cause violent crime when they sell firearms, too?

No, just shopping there does.

/drumroll

[Sirenia]

Damn straight if someone kills my family, and if he is standing in front of me I will shoot him dead. Call it revenge. Hell ys its revenge, and since I just shot him dead he wont be able to kill anyone else. My family will be gone yes, but no one else's family will be dead.

To quote someone from another thread...

God bless the 2nd amendment.

yep, too bad no one was exercising that right , maybe instead of 32 deaths, we'd have had just one dead asshole. But hey, you're cool.

[Sirenia]

So Beckwin, you think its alright for a minor to break into your house and threaten your security? You don't know if that person has a gun or not and you certainly don't know if they are a minor or not. So hell ya if someone is raising to shoot at me, and i have a gun in my hand, they will be shot, minor or not. I don't think anyone mentioned playing Rin-Tin-Tin when they hear a bump in the night, you're just pulling shit out of your ass.

[Jakune]

ok crazyrabbit... are you just against guns period, or guns used to protect? What is your feeling on hunting rifles/shotguns for hunting?

Also, I wouldn't say that I agree with raineer on the whole his son should be shot if he breaks in somewhere... But, If I found out my son was breaking and entering or for that matter anything illegal... well chances are I would make sure he wished he had got shot, as that would be much easier then what he would have to do/work off the... punishment.

And also... yes this is America... this is a completely different country then... say Germany, Sweden. So maybe try comparing things a little closer... Also, I suck at english, like really bad but... some of the stuff I am reading is hurting my eyes its so bad... try making your arguments a little more readable cause otherwise you are loosing all credibility.

Crazyrabbit, no little kids aren't the only ones that take things out of context... there are more then enough adults that do that and reports that do that. You can make statistics say whatever the fuck you want, the key to that is knowing all the information about the statistics taken ( variables and all that stuff ). So people can post all the statistics they want to post... but that isn't going to make me believe that this supports what they are saying.

Now wow... I sure am talking to crazy a lot... but yeah, instead of just saying "OMG GUNZ ARE BAD" trying presenting some things to fix it. Give some hard proof stuff, you want police to start patrolling the pawn shops and everything? then again, I guess that argument fails when you bring in the person that thinks all cops are corrupt and bad...

and im done for now...

[Beckwin]

Umm, I said "minor felon" as in, a minor felony charge. Unarmed robbery and/or breaking an entering.

Go back and read some of devek's posts. "with you, a shotgun, and a dog, you can take out several indoor targets pretty easily"- almost verbatim.

If you find someone with a gun thats going to attack you, shoot them. Never said that's wrong. I'm just saying that playing rambo because someone is stealing your CDs downstairs is stupid.

Blackrose: if not wanting robbers to be executed and thinking that life > property is trolling or retarded, then I don't know what to say. Check your priorities.

[Kazen]

I'm just saying that playing rambo because someone is stealing your CDs downstairs is stupid.

And thats where you have no clue, how do you know he's unarmed? Robbers dont exactly turn on all the lights in the house, and if he was armed, if you turned on a light he would probably shoot you.

[Credos]

Guns are for pussies. The chance for a person to go batshit insane and the chance for a person to have the opportunity to use a gun to defend themselves from a deadly attacker probably aren't all that far apart.

Hunting and sport shooting? That's fine, and most participants are very safe (except for Dick Cheney).

Handguns are stupid. They exist solely for one purpose: shooting people. You don't hunt with a 9mm, and a shotgun is better suited for home defense. Handguns are easily concealed as well.

I'm actually interested to hear what right-wingers have to say about stricter gun control, especially after that drunk driver thread.

Have you ever fired a shotgun? Try firing it from the hip, I'm sure you can get a whole one or two shots off while a burglar is in your house.

Now a sawed off on the other hand, that'd be better for home defense, but then you're talking about modifying a weapon illegally...

Uh oh...

[Credos]

If you find someone with a gun thats going to attack you, shoot them. Never said that's wrong. I'm just saying that playing rambo because someone is stealing your CDs downstairs is stupid.

Sorry but the minute that someone breaks into my house to steal my shit, their life is forfeit. Who is to say that the fucker isn't going to try and rape my wife, kill my children, or something like that?

I'd make sure it was nice and painful too, then curb the motherfucker.

[crazyrabbit]

to answer Jakuns post

I would wish that absolutly no weapons exist, but that is a dream. So in reality i think it is ok to posses weapons for animal hunting (riffles and shotguns only). Because hunting has a very long tradition in america and realy a lot ppl do that as hobby or just to get some food for semself.
But small guns only cause problems, so im against that.

Yes i agree that my son would also get a hard punishment for the shit he does. But Raineer said exactly that it would be ok if he died and that is beyond retardness. I do think that murders should get death penalty and that punishment on criminals should be harder but this blood-thirsty revenge shit is just as wrong the crimes itself.

I dont compare america to other countrys (read my posts, i never said its a lot better in other countrys). I just make the point that there are things realy wrong in usa and that they finaly need to do some real things to solve the problems instead of just gearing up with weapons to be able to shoot back.

Sorry that my english is bad <.< i always try to become better but it isnt easy. I also am learning a 3rd language atm so its even harder but i will try my best to make my points more clear.

Yes adults and media take many things out of context and it is just as stupid at little fat kids arguing about some shit. I kinda hate all NEWS-reporter because most of the time they arent interestet in what happend or how victims realy feel. They care only about the number of ppl viewing their show and if they look good enough for the camera.

I did not say "OMG GUNZ ARE BAD" but i made my statment that guns kill ppl and that with supporting the gun-market for your own protection you also support the gun-market for all criminals out there who put you in danger in the first place.

And again the same to Credos. Would it be ok if your own son died because he wantet to steal a dvd player? Dont you want that he could get a 2nd chance, that you could try and teach him more respect for the property of others. He should get a punishment that fits his crime and not the death through the hands of some crazy weapon-addict, hobby-rambo or scared idiot.

to Ashke

Does Wal-Mart cause violent crime when they sell firearms, too?

The ammunation used in the columbine killings where bought from the local wal-mart. Helping a killer is a crime isnt it?

[Credos]

And again the same to Credos. Would it be ok if your own son died because he wantet to steal a dvd player? Dont you want that he could get a 2nd chance, that you could try and teach him more respect for the property of others. He should get a punishment that fits his crime and not the death through the hands of some crazy weapon-addict, hobby-rambo or scared idiot.

I'd teach my son about morals, to earn his keep and get things that he wants honestly. It would be horrible, but if he was that stupid to break into a house to steal a DVD player well...

Like I said in my original post, if someone is breaking into your house, do you know what they are there for? How would the shooter that killed my son know he wasn't there to gut his wife and throw her entrails onto the ceiling fan?

It's not the fact that the person is stealing my DVD player, its the fact that the person is in my house, unwanted, and I would do anything to defend my family.

To turn it around, what would you do if you saw someone in your house, in the kitchen or something, not stealing anything from you; would you sit there and try to reason with them, or would you beat the ever loving piss out of them and make sure that he's down for the count?

About criminals being perpetuated by the gun trade, I think personally that they are perpetuated by the bullshit sentences that they get. People should be afraid to steal something from someone, not think "worst I'll get is 2-5". If people had the fear of God put into them a bit more often I think it'd do wonders for the boldness of criminals.

[MF Perm]

And spare me on the "oh but drugs get in the country, if we make guns illegal so will they." Despite the fact that any large shipment of guns will be beyond retarded easy to spot being smuggled in, considering you can't swallow a gun to sneak it in, and they aren't a malleable organic substance that can be blended in with another product to fly under the radar as drugs are; YOU ALSO NEED AMMUNITION. You can buy a gun illegally, and legally buy bullets at Wal-Mart.

Most Drugs arent smuggled in to the country inside someones ass. they are brought in Large "Beyond Retarded Easy to Spot" shipments. It's not as easy to catch the bad people as you may want to believe. Same goes for illegal weapons.

Let me clarify since you want to argue against one point of my post, and skip another completely:

and they aren't a malleable organic substance that can be blended in with another product to fly under the radar as drugs are

Alot of drug shipments come in mixed in with something legal, fruit, coffee, vegetables, cars, alot of imported good because they are GASP - a malleable organic / checmical substance. Not solid iron.

[crazyrabbit]

I would make sure that he gets the fuck out and wishes he would have never done such shit. But i would not like to become a killer if i can avoid it.

[Credos]

[quote=MF Perm]

And spare me on the "oh but drugs get in the country, if we make guns illegal so will they." Despite the fact that any large shipment of guns will be beyond retarded easy to spot being smuggled in, considering you can't swallow a gun to sneak it in, and they aren't a malleable organic substance that can be blended in with another product to fly under the radar as drugs are; YOU ALSO NEED AMMUNITION. You can buy a gun illegally, and legally buy bullets at Wal-Mart.

Most Drugs arent smuggled in to the country inside someones ass. they are brought in Large "Beyond Retarded Easy to Spot" shipments. It's not as easy to catch the bad people as you may want to believe. Same goes for illegal weapons.

Let me clarify since you want to argue against one point of my post, and skip another completely:

nd they aren't a malleable organic substance that can be blended in with another product to fly under the radar as drugs are

Alot of drug shipments come in mixed in with something legal, fruit, coffee, vegetables, cars, alot of imported good because they are GASP - a malleable organic / checmical substance. Not solid iron.[/quote:9dbf4]

Contrary to many 21 Jump Street episodes and other assorted movies, Cocaine and many other substances aren't smuggled into the country inside people's asses. I think it's safe to say a bulk of it comes in right in front of people who are paid to look the other way.

[MF Perm]

That law is completely outdated, no American should be able to have a firearm for any reason with the exception of hunting rifles.

Fuck you. Guns are not the problem. The problem is that people are being raised in America without being taught the value of human life, or that there are consequences for actions, and in some case are not being instilled with a set of morals at all. I recall my 17th birthday, when two kids in Colorado stormed their high school with firearms and explosives. Now what do you think is the difference? You can conceal a pipe bomb just as easily as a small firearm, and you can kill more people faster with it. Pipe bombs can be made from materials found at Wal-mart and Ace Hardware. Let's shutdown hardware stores and value centers too, they kill people.

The second amendment was put into place because of the tactics of the British governmentat the time in keeping dissidents down. They did it in Ireland, they did it in Scotland, and they did it in England. When you deprive your citizenry of a means to overthrow you, you may do anything you like as a governmental body. This is the kind of thing that was being considered in the second amendment. Basically speaking, the amendment is a check on the government, should it become oppressive towards its people. If your people are guaranteed the right and the ability to overthrow you, you have to stay in check. When the constitution was written, the ruling authority was the Crown of Great Britain, and it was not looking out for the interests of the people here. At that point the people took it into their hands to solve the problem. This right and ability is what keeps the American government from becoming like Stalinist Russia or any of the examples listed earlier. As for the statement about Americans shouldn't be allowed to own guns period, didn't you say you live in an urban area MF Perm? Are there lots of homeboys running around who don't know who they daddy be, and whose momma didn't teach them anything but how to steal and sell drugs? I'd be tempted to think that element of society is the issue rather than firearms being legal for private use. Also, I'd like to point out that the element of society I just described most likely would never be able to afford a firearm purchase from a legitimate dealer. Last time I checked a price on a Glock .40 it was over $600. It's cheaper to steal one or buy it stolen, or get it at a pawn shop. So again, guns are little more than instruments. I'm not going to fire a gun upon you unless I feel certain that you are about to harm me or my family. Shitbags however, will pull a firearm for $50 to buy some dope. Or a knife, or a club. It's the person weilding the tool, not the tool itself.

Yeah, one incident where some kids brought in pipe bombs that, ATTENTION EVERYONE DIDN'T EVEN GO OFF.

A gun is a pre-made weapon that you pull a trigger and kills. Anyone can pull the directions and ingredients to make a bomb off the internet, but making sure that bomb goes boom is a different story and a bit more complex than using a gun.

No one robs a bank with a pipe bomb, so let's not make asinine statements because you don't have a valuable argument.

Nobody has gone on a multiple victim killing rampage with pipe-bombs. They have done it with legally purchased ( which does not mean legally obtained by the killer ) handguns and semi-automatic weapons.


@ The guy that said how many deaths are with hunting rifles: Let me clarify, I meant single shot, single loaded hunting rifles. Let's see someone go on a rampage when they have to stop and load each shot. Not semi-automatic hunting rifles like the NRA wants. Think about these complex situations before you decide to form an opinion, please.


Also I love how the main argument is that these magical criminals will pop out of rainbows to bust caps in all the innocent Americans if guns are taken away. Brilliant.


And @ the guy that said it's not guns it's society and teaching, your argument is in line with blame media and books. I don't see people that play Final Fantasy going out and trying to kill people with swords or crossbows. Obviously a better education on the value of life and responsibility is one half of it, but not the whole argument. If guns aren't a factor, neither will needless death be.

[MF Perm]

[quote=Credos]

And spare me on the "oh but drugs get in the country, if we make guns illegal so will they." Despite the fact that any large shipment of guns will be beyond retarded easy to spot being smuggled in, considering you can't swallow a gun to sneak it in, and they aren't a malleable organic substance that can be blended in with another product to fly under the radar as drugs are; YOU ALSO NEED AMMUNITION. You can buy a gun illegally, and legally buy bullets at Wal-Mart.

Most Drugs arent smuggled in to the country inside someones ass. they are brought in Large "Beyond Retarded Easy to Spot" shipments. It's not as easy to catch the bad people as you may want to believe. Same goes for illegal weapons.

Let me clarify since you want to argue against one point of my post, and skip another completely:

nd they aren't a malleable organic substance that can be blended in with another product to fly under the radar as drugs are

Alot of drug shipments come in mixed in with something legal, fruit, coffee, vegetables, cars, alot of imported good because they are GASP - a malleable organic / checmical substance. Not solid iron.

Contrary to many 21 Jump Street episodes and other assorted movies, Cocaine and many other substances aren't smuggled into the country inside people's asses. I think it's safe to say a bulk of it comes in right in front of people who are paid to look the other way.[/quote:ce122]

I don't know how you made the correlation from imported product shipments to someones ass, but I think you need an education or shouldn't skim posts.

I hope it's the latter.

I used to be in the US Navy, we would assist the Coast Guard in ship raids and seizes. HI2U EXP FTW.

But I'm sure we have several experts with firsthand experience in the matter as well, right?

[Rammses]

You keep saying European nations have gun bans and then want to say there exists a lower gun-related crime rate. Two questions:

1.) How much crime is there involving another medium, such as knives, blunt weapons, hand to hand, etc?

Hard to find such statistics...

2.) Is this conjecture restricted solely to European nations that do not have a firearms ban as law?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...by_murder_rate

Bottom table. Look at Switzerland and Finland for example, two of the richest countries in the world with very few social problems.

In Finland there are over two million licensed firearms (which is more per capita than in the US).

...

The gun policy in Switzerland is unique in Europe. The personal weapon of militia personnel is kept at home as part of the military obligations. This, in addition to liberal gun laws and strong shooting traditions, has led to a very high gun count per capita.

Sup.

[Jakune]

hey crazy, sorry, the only things I was specifically saying to you were things where I started it with your name, things about the country was meant for the general group of people that were saying so.

And the guns thing, it just sounded like you are exceptionally against firearms, and hunting included cause I read no distinction, but the thing is America is not the only country where hunting has a large tradition, it does in many many countries.

Also crazy, wasn't specifically attacking you, I was going after everyone on the English thing... at least make it so I don't have to guess what word you meant there... im not perfect, I don't care about the punctuation or grammar... but if I can't read it, how am I supposed to understand.

people say in a perfect world, there would be no need for guns, but also in that same world there would be no need to have any rules for these firearms cause the only people getting them would be specifically for hunting, for things that wouldn't hurt others, but unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. I would like to reiterate that the problem is not the guns, if it wasn't guns it would have been something, possibly far worse. but the problem here is us. if we were not as... disturbed, if we valued human life maybe there wouldn't be as much hate, as much death, killing... if for instance we actually tried to work together, to come up with ideas instead of just saying things like I hope you get broken into, or throwing out names or all these pointless actions, maybe things could change, maybe there wouldn't be things like this happening. But if there is one thing I have learned as I grew up, there are only small populations of people that could actually be able to show these feelings show these things, and not hate or not work together. Do I think these things will ever change... no... I dont, I think everyone will continue to argue, continue to not agree and continue to stick to no compromising whatsoever... if there is anything that says it best:
We hurt others by our very existence.
That's just the way we live.
We need to learn to forgive.
Need to realize that existence is
to be shared. We're not just here
to exist; but to find the strength
to co-exist. It may start from
something small, it may even seem
impossible. But we must start from
somewhere.
Hope...

the thing with that is... we will never start... we will never start somewhere, it will always be that we can't co-exist. "Americans are too ignorant, Europeans are to ignorant, hell anyone is to ignorant. Because you are different from me I don't believe you, I don't want to work with you." this won't change, and everyday, what little hope I still have just dwindles more...

in the mean time, please keep people in your thoughts. Ryan Clark was an amazing person, I have never heard a single bad thing about him, and I am sure for many there it is the same. Some of the people were shot while they were in a class, learning so they could try to help the world. One specifically cared so much about the world, and only wanted to help fix things and make the world a cleaner and better place to live...

[Credos]

[quote=MF Perm][quote=Credos]

And spare me on the "oh but drugs get in the country, if we make guns illegal so will they." Despite the fact that any large shipment of guns will be beyond retarded easy to spot being smuggled in, considering you can't swallow a gun to sneak it in, and they aren't a malleable organic substance that can be blended in with another product to fly under the radar as drugs are; YOU ALSO NEED AMMUNITION. You can buy a gun illegally, and legally buy bullets at Wal-Mart.

Most Drugs arent smuggled in to the country inside someones ass. they are brought in Large "Beyond Retarded Easy to Spot" shipments. It's not as easy to catch the bad people as you may want to believe. Same goes for illegal weapons.

Let me clarify since you want to argue against one point of my post, and skip another completely:

nd they aren't a malleable organic substance that can be blended in with another product to fly under the radar as drugs are

Alot of drug shipments come in mixed in with something legal, fruit, coffee, vegetables, cars, alot of imported good because they are GASP - a malleable organic / checmical substance. Not solid iron.

Contrary to many 21 Jump Street episodes and other assorted movies, Cocaine and many other substances aren't smuggled into the country inside people's asses. I think it's safe to say a bulk of it comes in right in front of people who are paid to look the other way.[/quote:67207]

I don't know how you made the correlation from imported product shipments to someones ass, but I think you need an education or shouldn't skim posts.

I hope it's the latter.

I used to be in the US Navy, we would assist the Coast Guard in ship raids and seizes. HI2U EXP FTW.

But I'm sure we have several experts with firsthand experience in the matter as well, right?[/quote:67207]

Because you know there aren't thousands of miles of land on the Mexican border that are handled by the Navy and Coast Guard.

Oh, I forgot EXP FTW!!!!

If you think the Navy is so great and catching ALL the smugglers, you need to have your head checked.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

These stats are from the late 90's so take this how you wish.

According to Justice Department and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms estimates, ninety percent of violent crimes are committed without a handgun. Of those committed with a handgun, 93 percent of the guns used were obtained through unlawful means. Registration and waiting periods are of little value in deterring criminals. What's more a 1986 study revealed that 20 percent of the guns seized by Washington, D.C. policemen were homemade.

On another note, when the goverment does not have to worry about its citizens arming themselves against it, hmm...