logging hate

[andretti]

Yes, and I just explained to you why it occurs. Logging out for HNMs does not mean you lose all hate. It is just a placebo. The reason why it seems like you are shedding hate is b/c you are doing no action against the mob while logging out.

Rubbish. Back when we used BLMs and SMNs on Kirin I'd be far away doing nothing at all for minutes at a time while resting MP. Then I'd come back and pull hate with my first nuke. The difference between that and logging out (or dying) is very, very obvious to anyone.

agree, logging is hardly placebo... always works for me 100% of the time for the past 2.5yrs... today's khimmy hate after logging issue was different than all my 1,240 events attended over that time in this LS... is why i posted.

and

seriously, this is something i can't believe most long term ffxi players haven't figured out yet. the mob keeps a hate list based off your actions, and logging out, zoning, logging into another character, etc, do nothing to remove you from this list. the hate depletes over time based on enmity and your actions. the fastest your hate can possibly deplete (other than taking direct damage) is when you're standing there doing nothing (possibly running around). standing there doing nothing for 2 minutes = logging for 2 minutes = zoning for 2 minutes, etc.

i lol'd

[Demosthenes11]

mario, I guess our tanks, the same tanks that have been holding hate for 3+ years and have killed everything from fafnir to AV just fail at life

[Jhun]

Full damage Tourbillion erases your hate completaly like grand wyrms's Horrid Roar.
Maybe your tank or both of them if you had 2 got a full damage Tourbillion while you were offline.

[andretti]

mario, I guess our tanks, the same tanks that have been holding hate for 3+ years and have killed everything from fafnir to AV just fail at life

yeah, hahaha

[Taj]

People who are saying you need to log all the way out, or log onto a mule, or log onto a character on a different server, it's only working for you because of the time it takes to do those things. The way the hate list works is, a mob doesn't remove you from it's hate list until it looks for you and can't find you. So, if you log out, and then log back in before it looks for you, you'll still be on the hate list with the same hate.

[Shuemue]

People who are saying you need to log all the way out, or log onto a mule, or log onto a character on a different server, it's only working for you because of the time it takes to do those things. The way the hate list works is, a mob doesn't remove you from it's hate list until it looks for you and can't find you. So, if you log out, and then log back in before it looks for you, you'll still be on the hate list with the same hate.

That's the exact reasoning behind why I log all the way out like I do, it's so I know I'm taking a fairly long time to do it.

[Kirschy]

Taj, what kind of actions would a mob have to do in order to "check" for you on hate list? Or does it check every 4-5 min?

[Taruchyaan]

what if you go kill yourself on a mule? :X
a friend of mine does that and says always works. would that just be the time it takes, as well?

[andretti]

People who are saying you need to log all the way out, or log onto a mule, or log onto a character on a different server, it's only working for you because of the time it takes to do those things. The way the hate list works is, a mob doesn't remove you from it's hate list until it looks for you and can't find you. So, if you log out, and then log back in before it looks for you, you'll still be on the hate list with the same hate.

ok... this sounds reasonable, but two issues still befuddling:

1) one time when i logged hate, i turned off my xbox and used the bathroom (which btw, takes a while as i am paralyzed and wheelchair bound) as soon as i log in, 1 cannonball for 700ish dmg, and draw in + attacked by khimmy.
2) same tank, same mob, same me logging the same way i have before on even hundreds of different hnm fights, today was first time i ever regained hate on very first cast after returning from logging hate.. and today this happened 4-5 times.

[Senoska]

I have the exact same views on the matter as Taj. No need to retype what he said.

Edit: Misread a few post, sorry.

[Fusional]

People who are saying you need to log all the way out, or log onto a mule, or log onto a character on a different server, it's only working for you because of the time it takes to do those things. The way the hate list works is, a mob doesn't remove you from it's hate list until it looks for you and can't find you. So, if you log out, and then log back in before it looks for you, you'll still be on the hate list with the same hate.

being a career tank that's always how it seemed to work to me when any of our blms or even melee log for hate. i've seen blms do some vicious MBs log off and log back in just a minute or two later only to pull hate immediately with their next action if for whatever reason i took enough damage or a hate-resetting move.

like you said, mob keeps a hate list and it stays that way until it looks for you. only thing that affects that list in between times it looks for you is if, as somebody else mentioned, you're not doing anything to gain hate *or* you're doing less to gain hate than others, and they get moved further up the list.

Taj, what kind of actions would a mob have to do in order to "check" for you on hate list? Or does it check every 4-5 min?

i'm not sure if there are other things it's doing, but mobs definitely keep track of the next highest targets on their hate list and use them regularly as secondary targets for spells and such. ie: nin #1 tanking omega, omega is attacking nin#1, doesn't damage him or do anything to cause him to lose hate, but randomly uses floodlight or something on nin #2, who is the next highest person on the hate list in range. after using that one WS, omega resumes going full-bore after nin #1.

i suspect sometimes it doesn't even have to be the next highest guy on the hate list. sometimes i think they choose a random target in range on the list to use a spell or something on (which would explain how if you've ever been fighting something, like byakko, and you haven't really provoked or done much to build hate yet but the other tanks are laying the enmity on thick, and out of nowhere without even so much as looking your direction, byakko randomly goes from a double attack + WS on one tank, who absorbs all hits with shadows and is recasting Ni, to casting holy on you)

don't have any solid evidence and it's impossible as far as i know to parse, this is just based on my observations as a tank.

[Kyreth]

You can figure hate doesn't always work as a single function as early as beating on a bunch of worms in Korrokula or the like.

Tank can have so much hate the worm slaps him with every melee attack in the book- but if you step back and generate some hate, it'll lob a spell or TP attack at you anyway.

Also, worms that lose track of their target by getting out of range can and will go yellow afterwards, even after you pound the crap out of them- I've nuked a worm to 10% of it's life, ducked out of spell range and promptly had the worm check for me, fail to detect, and lose all hate (goes unclaimed)- and then walked back into spell range without it so much as twitching five seconds after I'd fired a crossbow at it from max range.

So the hate-you-till-I-can't-find-you theory works for me. Makes sense, it's the same thing as losing a monster that's chasing you by crossing water and the like.

[Tanag]

Back when I was heavily into HNM's I refused to log to reset hate. It seems like cheating to me. I wouldn't feel accomplished beating something by exploiting the games code to make the fight easier.

[riddaraan]

I wouldn't feel accomplished beating something by exploiting the games code to make the fight easier.

I know that it makes my job a whole lot easier when someone pulling hate can log it... but I think the above statement is pretty true. Maybe SE has / is in the works to ninja-fix the hate logging thing so that we can't "cheat" anymore.

; ; Just my two gil.

[evilpaul]

seriously, this is something i can't believe most long term ffxi players haven't figured out yet. the mob keeps a hate list based off your actions, and logging out, zoning, logging into another character, etc, do nothing to remove you from this list. the hate depletes over time based on enmity and your actions. the fastest your hate can possibly deplete (other than taking direct damage) is when you're standing there doing nothing (possibly running around). standing there doing nothing for 2 minutes = logging for 2 minutes = zoning for 2 minutes, etc.

So how does the whole zone-nuking thing work? I Thunder III+Thunder IV and run away from a pissed off Zip or whatever and come back to do it again.

[Paegan]

Yes, and I just explained to you why it occurs. Logging out for HNMs does not mean you lose all hate. It is just a placebo. The reason why it seems like you are shedding hate is b/c you are doing no action against the mob while logging out.

Rubbish. Back when we used BLMs and SMNs on Kirin I'd be far away doing nothing at all for minutes at a time while resting MP. Then I'd come back and pull hate with my first nuke. The difference between that and logging out (or dying) is very, very obvious to anyone.

mobs don't like when you're resting for MP. your hate will not deplete nearly as fast when resting for MP as it would if you stand there really doing nothing. try standing there doing nothing for 2 minutes, vs logging out for 2 minutes, and the hate shed will be the exact same.

Lol. I'm a BST, I know how hate accumulation works. Did you miss the part where I said "far away"? Any action taken more than 30 distance away from a mob causes zero hate, and that includes resting MP.

seriously, this is something i can't believe most long term ffxi players haven't figured out yet. the mob keeps a hate list based off your actions, and logging out, zoning, logging into another character, etc, do nothing to remove you from this list. the hate depletes over time based on enmity and your actions. the fastest your hate can possibly deplete (other than taking direct damage) is when you're standing there doing nothing (possibly running around). standing there doing nothing for 2 minutes = logging for 2 minutes = zoning for 2 minutes, etc.

i lol'd

Me too.

I wouldn't feel accomplished beating something by exploiting the games code to make the fight easier.

I know that it makes my job a whole lot easier when someone pulling hate can log it... but I think the above statement is pretty true. Maybe SE has / is in the works to ninja-fix the hate logging thing so that we can't "cheat" anymore.

; ; Just my two gil.

Meh, I somewhat agree with that sentiment, but usually the temp logging isn't done because it's required to win, it's done so that you can nuke harder and kill quicker and then go do something more interesting than spending 2 hours killing (e.g.) JoL for the umpteenth time.

I'm sure this -was- actually adjusted at some point in the past. Didn't it used to be that doing a /pol temp log would drop all hate immediately? I tried googling for the patch notes but couldn't find them, maybe I'm remembering that wrong.

[Jackyl]

People who are saying you need to log all the way out, or log onto a mule, or log onto a character on a different server, it's only working for you because of the time it takes to do those things. The way the hate list works is, a mob doesn't remove you from it's hate list until it looks for you and can't find you. So, if you log out, and then log back in before it looks for you, you'll still be on the hate list with the same hate.

Taj is correct. I tested this myself a long time ago and figured this out. The amount of time you are logged out of the game, or even on another character on the same account, has nothing to do with being removed from the hate list. You are removed from the hate list if, and only if, the mob looks for you and does not see you online or you die.

Here's what I did to test it long ago:

Test 1: Player1 and Player2 is in a party. Player 1 pulls a mob creating initial hate, Player2 (preferably a PLD) provokes the mob and starts 'tanking' it by using hate abilities in a constant manner much like an HNM fight. Player1 logs out. Player2 continues to create hate on the mob. (PLD should not be engaged to avoid killing the mob assuming the test is being done on a too weak prey) After 5~10 minutes Player1 logs back in. Now Player2 zones the mob. You will find that the mob will now come looking for Player1 even after being logged out for 5~10 minutes.

Test 2: Everything is done in the same manner as Test 1; however, after Player1 logs out, Player2 only uses 1 provoke on the mob and remains idle for 5~10 minutes allowing the mob to strike Player2. After 5~10 minutes Player1 logs back in. Player2 now zones and you fill find that the mob will simply depop after Player2 zones.

In Test 1, Player2 had constant hate on the mob so Player1 was never sought after thus remaining on the hate list. In Test2, Player2 continued to lose hate to the point where the mob looked for Player1, did not find Player1, and removed Player1 from the hate list.

So the moral of the story is, logging hate only works if the tank's hate is fragile and you are expecting to "pull hate" with no further actions. Otherwise, it is best to remain logged in and just avoid using actions that create hate for awhile.

[Vaxx]

Great info, I never really thought of that.

Also makes sense when NM's are fought at zone and any blms with hate get immediate hate resets when they zone since usually they are the ones with hate.

[andretti]

So the moral of the story is, logging hate only works if the tank's hate is fragile and you are expecting to "pull hate" with no further actions. Otherwise, it is best to remain logged in and just avoid using actions that create hate for awhile.

now i'm getting it... and this sounds very viable... we had just 2 tanks, 2 smn, and me blu actively attacking mobs... we also, aside from me snagging hate on relog, had very little dmg taken for whms to cure... the two tanks we had (imho) are extremely reliable and in my history with them, very very good at holding hate...

with that said, we know the smn's didnt snag any hate... and even though, in frustration, i finally shut off my client totally and used the wc during a "hate log", it seems very plausible they held hate so solid that khimmy didn't look for me while i was gone..

this is funny, cuz a previous poster wants to be a smart-ass about our suck ass tanks, supposedly... but if taj's explanation is correct, and i and many others here seem to agree now, then how ironic.. this happened because our tanks are "too good", not the opposite... ;p kudos to them.

one thing i do know... i have fought khimmy 15 times maybe (with more literally hundreds of kills at other "hnm" type events over 2.5yrs)? mostly all on blm, now almost always blu.. never have i had hate issues after relog like this khimmy... however, rarely (if ever) have we had this scenario where i'm doing like 75% of total dmg vrs 2 smn who don't pull hate...

i like taj and his theory, and now i'm clear (imho) why i kept regaining hate so fast with so little done upon relog. thanks all for thoughtful debate and input on this.

ps.. we also log hate for speed and efficiency... has nothing to do with needing this to kill hnms, but purely to kill shit faster and move on... after killing the same mobs over and over and over there's no reason to kill slow and deliberate... that novelty boat sailed long ago. plain and simple, the reason we log hate is the same exact reason you see 35page, 1000reply, 70,000view threads on BG about 30 second BahamutV2's. anything to get through the monotony of killing same mobs hundreds of times = win. and it keeps the game fresh and fun to add speed as a goal, imo.

[riddaraan]

ps.. we also log hate for speed and efficiency... has nothing to do with needing this to kill hnms, but purely to kill shit faster and move on... after killing the same mobs over and over and over there's no reason to kill slow and deliberate... that novelty boat sailed long ago.

I understand that, and I agree with what you're saying about the repetition getting extremely boring. But it brings up the idea - which will proceed in intense criticism I'm sure - why not just do such things occassionally, and savor them when you do?

TeamKANICAN & LimitBreak - two of the most well known LS's on my server - have in the past year or so taken breaks from hunting NQ Kings, and from my perspective typically really only frequent Wyrms & HQ & such.

I think that sort of attitude could probably have made all around a feeling for players to have a much more relaxed and enjoyable feeling to Final Fantasy. The one we all had before we first escelated those steps in the brooding dark Castle Zvahl, oh so long ago. Before we achieved Rank 6.

But those days are gone, alas. I guess it makes sense. When ever was a video game actually inteded to be relaxing & enjoyable?