logging hate

[andretti]

I understand that, and I agree with what you're saying about the repetition getting extremely boring. But it brings up the idea - which will proceed in intense criticism I'm sure - why not just do such things occassionally, and savor them when you do?

TeamKANICAN & LimitBreak - two of the most well known LS's on my server - have in the past year or so taken breaks from hunting NQ Kings, and from my perspective typically really only frequent Wyrms & HQ & such.

Lunarians barely camp ground kings... every blue moon we go back for a time but hardly regular basis... however, being an endgame shell for now what, 4+ years, with many solid long time members, but many many more rotating mems that come and go, we have a strong desire by the shell to constantly raid and get members the gear they want/need...

i don't take what you said as bad, and no criticism from me, you ask a valid question... but like i said, long time stable shell + limited number of hnm in the game + people who want gears = repetition. no two ways to get around that.

[riddaraan]

There are two aspects to this which are obvious to us all after this point, I'm sure.

The first being that perhaps by implementing instanced or BCNM style end-game content which reflects or includes currently available fights & gear, we could possibly aquire those things either faster, more frequently, or with less "wasted time." Like in (lol)WoW. Of course this makes things like the dev team says, less fufilling and worthwhile. Honestly how valuable would relic weapons be if everyone ran around with one?

Secondly, something which I appreciate more than just about any other aspect of Final Fantasy, is that this long time commitment required breeds a strong community of friendships. I know it's been fairly hard for me to find my place in End Game on Odin. I've been with a reputible LS, and watched it dissolve into back biting greed-monsters. I've been with a infamous LS, and seen the lowest low of digital humanity.

Now, I'm in a linkshell, which may not be the best or most experienced, or certainly the longest lasting shell. But I know I've found my home there. For the first time since my first days in the dream world, I actually enjoy Dynamis again. Our sea/sky god runs are filled with laughter and excitement. I'm actually enthusiastic about seeing people get gear over me. And finding that sort of electronic home really represents a strong reason why I continue to play after four years.

I just wish that variety was more available to End Game. I always wonder, what happens when people run out of jobs to level? What happens when no one has a craft left to level? Will the low end things cease to be? How hard is it now, with the prices the way they are, for new players to get into the game?

There's very little solution I foresee. I'm just a casual observer, who always fears his time in Vana'diel is coming to a close.

[suji]

Taj is correct. I tested this myself a long time ago and figured this out. The amount of time you are logged out of the game, or even on another character on the same account, has nothing to do with being removed from the hate list. You are removed from the hate list if, and only if, the mob looks for you and does not see you online or you die.

Nice tests, thanks.

[Nystul]

Khimaira is perhaps the WORST mob in the game to test something like this. The hate is often bouncy, the TP moves stun tanks and does large damage which will frequently cause Khimaira to look elsewhere while the tanks are waiting for stun to clear so they can flash/voke/curebomb/whatever to regain hate. It is by it's nature a bouncy fight. I don't see why you would be surprised if you had pulled hate by doing a large chunk of damage in that fight.

[Minions]

People who are saying you need to log all the way out, or log onto a mule, or log onto a character on a different server, it's only working for you because of the time it takes to do those things. The way the hate list works is, a mob doesn't remove you from it's hate list until it looks for you and can't find you. So, if you log out, and then log back in before it looks for you, you'll still be on the hate list with the same hate.

ding ding ding. Taj never fails

[Aodh]

seriously, this is something i can't believe most long term ffxi players haven't figured out yet. the mob keeps a hate list based off your actions, and logging out, zoning, logging into another character, etc, do nothing to remove you from this list. the hate depletes over time based on enmity and your actions. the fastest your hate can possibly deplete (other than taking direct damage) is when you're standing there doing nothing (possibly running around). standing there doing nothing for 2 minutes = logging for 2 minutes = zoning for 2 minutes, etc.

So how does the whole zone-nuking thing work? I Thunder III+Thunder IV and run away from a pissed off Zip or whatever and come back to do it again.

It's exactly how Taj said. If you're on the top of the hate list, and the mob searches for you and is unable to path to you or draw-in, then your hate is reset. So Nuking > Zoning works because you're on the top of the hate list when you zone, and after you zone it can no longer path to you so you're removed.

[Spekkio]

i don't think you're quite totally correct, but you're exceptionally close. let's look at something that relies heavily on clearing hate: manaburning ix'drg. to preface this for anyone who's not familiar with how it's done (if there's anyone out there who isn't,) everyone disbands from the party, one person grabs ix and runs for the porter between the two north rooms. then everyone nukes, zones, zones back, repeat. win. he keeps forgetting you're there every time you zone when you're solo.

if you're in a party though, the game is very different. he'll charge all over, running between the porters kicking ass and taking names. even if you break party and all zone, he'll still go around killing people. this is because of what taj said. the mob maintains a hate list. top of the list is the target. if merely being the target and not being available were to remove you from it entirely, when we drop party and all zone, it should get bored, de-aggro, and we should be able to go about business as normal. this doesn't happen. he remains angry and out for blood.

what follows are my own theories from my own experience. take them for what you will. what i believe happens, and the value to logging hate is, when a mob tries to target you because you're the top target on his hate list and fails, he will reduce your emnity by some percentage, not removing you from the hate list entirely. this will force it to re-assert hate on someone else who will have far more emnity now that you're so far behind in the hate game. if, however, a mob should ever find himself with NO legal targets at all, as is the case in the worm that can't reach you, or you being the only one with hate on drg and then you zone thus making yourself an untargetable player for a moment, the mob will immediately lose all aggro and disengage.

[andretti]

Ix'drg doesn't really count here as a real zone... using Ix'drg and that psuedo "zone" is moot point in this discussion... in my humble opinion...

what other "zone" will a mob cross to follow you except that?

the reason he follows through that "zone" is because it isn't really a true zone after all... if it were, we wouldnt need to drop pt to nuke>>zone him... and also you would drop from list when you zoned there while in pt, and he not follow.

[Spekkio]

it is a true zone, actually. when you pass through it, you get the loading data message before you re-appear. in addition, like all true zones, brd songs fall off when you pass through. this is in contrast to transporters like the ones in palace/gardens or the porters in sky where you are simply moved about the zone and brd songs are not removed. zones where the destination is the same as the source are unusual (the only two i can think of are the updrafts in sea and the porters in gardens) but they are in fact treated as zones by the game. you should see a similar behavior if you pulled a mob to any zone line and tried zoning out and in.

[Zirk]

if you're in a party though, the game is very different. he'll charge all over, running between the porters kicking ass and taking names. even if you break party and all zone, he'll still go around killing people. this is because of what taj said. the mob maintains a hate list. top of the list is the target. if merely being the target and not being available were to remove you from it entirely, when we drop party and all zone, it should get bored, de-aggro, and we should be able to go about business as normal. this doesn't happen. he remains angry and out for blood.

If you all zone at EXACTLY the same time, he should de-aggro, I've done it a few times. It can be tricky because it takes around a second before you see anyone else's actions on your screen, and if one person is a second off, then ix'drg still has alliance hate on everyone that was in the party/alliance who claimed, even if you zoned, you'll keep being re-added to ix'drg's hate list until everyone has cleared hate at the same time, so ix'drg has nobody to trace hate back to.

[Aodh]

if you're in a party though, the game is very different.

Some mobs populate their hate lists differently. In the case of Ix'drg, if somone in a party/alliance aggros, everyone in that party/alliance (and in range) is added to the hate list.

When you zone DRG, you end up in the same zone after you pass through the portal, and if you are in a party and not everyone is in the zoning limbo at the exact same time (very very very unlikely ever) when you pop out the other side you're re-added to the list and he'll chase you through the portal.

[Spekkio]

if you're in a party though, the game is very different.

Some mobs populate their hate lists differently. In the case of Ix'drg, if somone in a party/alliance aggros, everyone in that party/alliance (and in range) is added to the hate list.

When you zone DRG, you end up in the same zone after you pass through the portal, and if you are in a party and not everyone is in the zoning limbo at the exact same time (very very very unlikely ever) when you pop out the other side you're re-added to the list and he'll chase you through the portal.

i realize that point. he's got party hate just like the DA darters and limbus mobs. the fact that this behavior of hunting you after you zone continues even after you drop party though, indicates that there's more than simple party hate sharing going on here. even if you weren't in the party, but cured someone when they had hate and before they zoned, he'd still be on you and then the other person when they zoned. you can try it with normal aern if you don't believe me.

Zirk, i thought about that myself and figured it should work. he'd scan his entire hate list, find nobody, and get bored. never had the chance to try it though. good to know it works.

[Aodh]

It's for the same reason party/alliance hate works. When someone in a party pulls Ix'drg (for example) then everyone is added to the list, but with no "hate". As long as he has aggro that list is still active. If you're at the top of the list and are unable to be pathed to, then your hate is reset while still remaining on the list. When the mob deaggro's, the list is cleared. Mobs have different conditions for acting on hate. Ix'Drg will attack everyone on the hate list weither or not they performed any action on the mob.

[Spekkio]

i think we're saying pretty much the same thing from different angles. the bottom line is that zoning or logging in and of itself won't remove you from the hate list. only time and distance can do that. there is still value in logging out with hate though, as it gives time to dissipate the hate without causing a mob to run around and cause problems. you don't want hate moving around on a 10% hp jorgy. whm in the wrong spot gets hate when they were riding high and jorgy crits hard, say hello to Mr. Flail! while this should never really happen, it sure can't hurt. plus it gives you time to use the rest room or grab a drink.

[Caudle]

Here's an idea, get tanks that can get hold hate / get it back and don't worry about "logging hate"

I know, very insightful and helpful information, but true none the less :D

[Ddong]

Or learn to control your own hate. You can have fights just as fast if you learn to manage your own hate.

[jerkbox]

logging hate sucks and unnecessary imo. the best thing to do is to be able to judge your hate and predict when you're going to pull it so you can run up to the tanks. playing blm i have a habit of typing /as on the mob as soon as a nuke lands. if you see your name, run away from mages and up to the tanks asap. if your tanks are godlike, get them to cure you and you're straight. the second best thing that could happen is that you run up to the tanks and the mob bites you really hard. if you survive, you'll have lost a ton of hate. if you die, well, at least you didnt die risking a flail and you get your hate reset

also remember that mobs beating up your stoneskin counts towards hate loss

[Taj]

Linsivi's mad at me because he taught me about the hate list thing just recently. So uh, credit goes to him for the brilliant discovery.

[Linsivi]

>:O

Here's a few other random hate related things I've noticed.

First is pretty obvious but it kind of goes with the second, a mob must be acted on in order to gain hate. This means, you can link 4 mobs, get cure bombed by someone, and only get hate from the initially pulled mob.

Now that's rather obvious, but it's rather helpful when power leveling a lower job. I used to use my alt account bard to get my lower levels to 37 (or higher!). A problem with bard power level is that sometimes you just get a mob that's too tough, and songs wear off. If you want to reapply songs without losing exp from having a 75 in the party, you can disengage the mob, let it go yellow, and then reapply songs. Due to the claim patch, it will more than likely remain yellow for the remainder of the fight (the power level will have hate), however the character being power leveled will get full exp.

[Lordwafik]

>:O

Here's a few other random hate related things I've noticed.

First is pretty obvious but it kind of goes with the second, a mob must be acted on in order to gain hate. This means, you can link 4 mobs, get cure bombed by someone, and only get hate from the initially pulled mob.

Now that's rather obvious, but it's rather helpful when power leveling a lower job. I used to use my alt account bard to get my lower levels to 37 (or higher!). A problem with bard power level is that sometimes you just get a mob that's too tough, and songs wear off. If you want to reapply songs without losing exp from having a 75 in the party, you can disengage the mob, let it go yellow, and then reapply songs. Due to the claim patch, it will more than likely remain yellow for the remainder of the fight (the power level will have hate), however the character being power leveled will get full exp.

You don't even have to do that.

When we BRD PL, we just have everyone unlock and turn, and the BRD stays in the fight while the mob is red, then disbands right after. So long as he doesn't perform an action on the monster itself, exp remains the same.