Nyzul Weapon Discussion

[BRP]

Odin pretty certainly is the Dark Divinity.

[LD]

Odin is a God, it's possible he was able to summon himself and others to this world without the aid of the tear in Hazhalm.
Flit refers to it as a 'Shortcut', meaning there could be a longer, more difficult means of coming here, which would explain demons in the middle lands in the areas around the shattered Dark Crystal.
Just as with the other 6 Avatars, Odin gives his power to others so it can manifest itself through them, the difference here is the amount of power given and control he has over the medium.

On the topic of Odin and his 'Evil', I agree with Khamsin.
The legends say that Promathia created beastmen to keep humanity busy, but it was stated in COP that Promathia was already dead by the time beastment came to exist.
I strongly believe that it was actually Odin who set them on their path, if they were 'created' at all.
Odin is a God of War and Battle, it's possible that just as Altana did something to make us 'normal', Odin altered the Beastmen to make them fight.
If they just came to be, if they were just more mutations created by the meltdown, then he still manipulated them through the Kindred during the build-up to the war.
Point being, all this could have just been done to preserve a sense of order, just as throwing himself against Alexander would/will once again balance the equation.

[Sagacious Sundi]

Conflict between humans and beastmen seem to just be because of differences, territory, beliefs, etc. Maybe some, but not all (for example, definitely not Qiqirn or Poroggos [but maybe Odin made the Tarus evil! DUN DUN DUN!]). I doubt there is any greater force behind the general human/beastman tension (unless you count Emptiness and evil stuff which makes everyone act all bad). EDIT: Actually, forget that, I see it as a possibility for the Orcs (they may have encountered his protocrystal), Gigas (same as Orcs), and chimeras (Hazhalm).

Also, there's this:

Prishe : What I want to hear is the lowdown on the big boss behind the Kindred of the Northlands.
Prishe : The Mithra seem to think that it's Promathia, but I know better than that.
Prishe : So, who the hell is it? He's called the Divinity of Darkness by the beastmen, apparently.
Louverance : I returned here to investigate that very fact...
Louverance : The legends of the northern islands tell that the Divinity of Darkness slumbers in this land.
Louverance : At some time in the past, the Shadow Lord followed the voice of this sleeping deity to its source.
Louverance : His actions led by the powerful stone in the possession of the Shadow Lord, the Divinity of Darkness created an army of demons to enter the service of his visitor.
Prishe : I think I'm starting to get it now. The being who the beastmen call Promathia is actually...
Louverance : Tell me! I must know the truth!
??? : Prishe!
Louverance : Wait! Be on your guard! There is something strange afoot!

The non-shortcut way of bringing Odin here was probably:
-Make a pact with the SL (give him an army of demons in return for...)
-The SL's army kidnapping Emeline (sp)
-The song thingy to wake up Odin

The problem is that Flit refers to Odin as "his malevolence". Also, Imps are his servants, and were servants of the Shadowlord during the great war.

Don't forget the fact that he has Dark Esquires (Kindred Demons).

EDIT: Forgot to make my full points. I don't Odin was going to make Rao the next rider (but then again, maybe he would've if the Shadow Lord wasn't defeated and had weird stuff like the Shadow of Darkness and Dynamis happen). He became the SL because of the dark magicite. The demons acting evil could've been because Odin gave them to the SL (therefore they do whatever Rao tells them) in return for Odin being awakened by Emeline. Evil? Possibly. Malevolent? Definitely.

[Khamsin]

Louverance : His actions led by the powerful stone in the possession of the Shadow Lord, the Divinity of Darkness created an army of demons to enter the service of his visitor.

That makes it sound like Shadow Lord commanded Odin, because it says that his (Odin's) actions were led by the powerful stone in the possession of the Shadow Lord. Odin made the army of demons because the guy with the powerful stone said so.

[Tomino]

from what we've seen up until now, I'd say Odin (Prime) is the Celestial Avatar of Darkness. this meaning he rules of a dark dimension just like the other celestial ones; like them he shouldnt be much interested in vanadiel affairs until he's "awaken from his slumber" for ex.
His protocrystal could be the shattered one seen in CoP, but now Hazlam Grounds incident gave him another door from which to come among mortals; after all, Carbuncle once mentioned that should a celestial step into our world, he could make use of its own power to battle.
In addiction, being the dark realm it could follow different rules than the ice/fire/etc ones, since the dark element is tied with more magic and on a different scale than the other (think of skillchains) : so it could be that in FF XI the dark realm is like underworld and it's inhabited by the souls of the deaths; maybe Luzaf and Odin met there, and made the pact to bring Aht down, once again.


But i think it shouldnt be stated that being dark Odin is also "evil"; in FF an avatar seems to be a reflection of a single element and dark is just *dark*, not "bad". same goes for Alexander, it can be light based but not necessarily good tho light magic is usually used for cures and such.

Also, basing on the old Vana Tribune, each celestial avatar was created from a being living on Vanadiel by the will of Altana : Garuda, Shiva, Ramuh and so on. Said so, it could be that Odin was once a normal man, maybe a knight, and that he could had fought in Aht Urghan to accomplish something that made the goddess gift him with becoming the dark avatar. It could even be that the first "dark rider" who stopped Alexander was a single man.

[FinalJustice]

Yea in FF game, Dark and Light Magic or any magic really is neither good nor evil. So you can't rely on element to determine who is evil or good in the game.

[BRP]

Those stories in Vana'diel Tribune aren't necessarily true. They sort of contradict some FFXI canon. Likely, they are just stories made up by people that are somewhat based on the truth.

[FinalJustice]

Even if they contradict sometimes, i think it's best to just stick with what SE releases at "official story" I guess. Hell even the stories in the game across expansions aren't always consistent. Like how you do the Fenrir quest, and you communicate with fenrir, battle him, and earn the right to use his power. Then Carbuncle in waking the beast is trying to gather the avatar powers to try and communicate with his friend who sleeps in Full mooon fountain, who we assume is Fenrir. Yet you already communicated with Fenrir, and most likely are already able to summon his power. So it confuses the hell out of everyone, because if you've already spoken to Fenrir not once, but twice in the game at different times, why are we trying to waken the avatar we already did. It's as if in the Waking the beast story, Fenrir has never awaken given the info Carbuncle is telling you.

So I'm not sure we can say the Tribunals SE released aren't true. They probably aren't always written by the same person, and leave room for some improvising due to certain aspects of ffxi story never being fully explored. I guess the best we can do is just go by what the latest info told to us is and take it as that.

[BRP]

That's different. Fenrir being alive and dead has more to do with the FFXI's timeline never really progressing but in a few cases. This has more to do with those being ever true at all. They seem more like legends from people actually within Vana'diel to explain the main stars(the colored star) in each constellation.

[FinalJustice]

I think i see what you mean.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I was thinking you were saying tribunals themselves are not true.

So you are speaking of the characters in the tribunals telling the stories?
As in the characters themselves telling a story they are not sure is fact?

[Kyreth]

*spoileriffic, natch*

The problem is that Flit refers to Odin as "his malevolence". Also, Imps are his servants, and were servants of the Shadowlord during the great war. This makes it a very strong possibility that Odin was really the dark divinity that empowered the Shadowlord and was mentioned throughout the CoP storyline. (Perhaps Raogrimm was his next intended Dark Rider.)

Oaths had great power in Norse mythology, as did the concept of vengence for wrongs given. Luzaf refers to Odin as a "lord of battle" and the patron of Ephramadians. I see a trend here- Odin is the Dark Divinity, the power that answers a call for revenge against outrages and injustice, though all revenge has a price. Raogrimm was answered for the betrayal and murder that triggered the Crystal War, and now Luzaf for the obliteration of the Ephramadians through the folly of Alexander and the Empire. Of course, each cycle of revenge obviously gets Odin something in return...evil souls, war, whatever it is that Odin desires. So Aphmau and Luzaf making nice-nice wasn't gonna be allowed.

Else, the mentioning of Luzaf "probably being the next rider" makes me think that the first Odin who fought Alexander had been summoned too, maybe guided by another avenger like the elvaan corsair. It'd be nice to learn when the Haazlam accident occurred...[/color]

I think Odin's had many pawns to promote to "Knights" over the years. All it seems to take is a gross act of injustice and someone willing to pay the price to get payback.

Razfahd is building a new, stronger body for Alexander to inhabit. In order to maintain a balance, Odin would have to be brought back somehow- the results of the experiments in Hazhalm Testing Grounds were probably the means of that balance.

The Odin summoning would most likely be considered destiny, you can't summon Alexander without Odin and vice versa.

I think Odin's summonable (or at least parts of his power or agents) without Alexander popping in, but the new Alexander Avatar is obviously going to be a repeat of the old ways- the iron giant which will be used to crush anything and everything in the Empire's way with a tyrannical rampage. It's clear from the last mission that the Middle Lands are an inch away from declaring outright war on Al Zahbi to prevent it from reanimating a new titan. The sin of the past is due to repeat, and that means Odin is once again free to punish the inequity in his own cruel way.

[Sagacious Sundi]

Louverance : His actions led by the powerful stone in the possession of the Shadow Lord, the Divinity of Darkness created an army of demons to enter the service of his visitor.

That makes it sound like Shadow Lord commanded Odin, because it says that his (Odin's) actions were led by the powerful stone in the possession of the Shadow Lord. Odin made the army of demons because the guy with the powerful stone said so.

You could also interpret it as the Shadow Lord's actions made him ask a favor from Odin (and since the stone/magicite made him the SL, his (Rao's) actions were led by it).

Or it could be interpreted that he simply talked to Odin with it, but then again Odin was said to be the closest to awakening and therefore the easiest to talk to.

If it is supposed to be that he commanded Odin, perhaps it was the Kindred that told the beastmen to get Emeline (and perhaps did this in secret).

EDIT: Also, I end up mentioning this everytime there is a discussion about the avatar legends being real, but Yve'noile does mention energy released from 8 stones (after the meltdown) and then the energy fusing or whatever with living beings and causing them to crystallize. This could either be interpreted:
A.) This is how the crystals we are use for synthesis are formed.
or
B.) There are 8 original sleeping gods. After a Zilart tried to bring about paradise, Emptiness escaped and devoured much of the land. The Zilart used the energy of the mothercrystals to restore it. (Unrelated, but it's mentioned in the same cutscene as the following sentence.) After the war between the Zilart and the wyrms, the Zilart summoned the sleeping gods to restore stuff. This caused them to sleep inside of crystals. Then the meltdown released that energy which fused with 8 creatures (some warrior, a "titan" (an extinct species of beastmen?), a serpent, a bird, an Elvaan queen, a Hume hermit, a machine, and a knight and his horse) creating the "celestial" avatars we know. It seems as though the things they fused with are merely vessels now, with the sentience coming from the god. Or they didn't fuse with anything, and the energy released simply became crystals, and the avatars we see in the protocrystals are the actual gods themselves.

Also, it's worth noting that the 6 sleeping gods wish to recover a "lost god" (more than likely Promathia). Either they want paradise or they wish to revive him and then possibly stop him from his suicide thingy.

[Tomino]

the way Carbuncle speaks of celestial avatars makes me think they just existed since their element. I mean since there was "fire" (referring to the magical energy) there was a fire-dimension too, and one being was ruler and God there; you could think of that as the endless resource of fire energies used on Vanadiel. It could be that the stories on Tribune were just made up from common folks referring to the stars, just like we have mythology on constellations, still I'm wondering if "Ifrit" existed first in the Fire realm or as a constellation made by men.

As for Odin, I'm still guessing his Dark Realm is different than the others (death related), and has invaded Vanadiel inside Haazlam; this way you can battle Prime Odin without any tuning fork because it's him coming to you. besides that could explain the prime fight with the dark protocrystal already been shattered.
I'm clueless on Alexander and the Light realm tho; it seems its energies were somehow used to build and move the colossus, but has him no will at all? and what about the Light Protocrystal? I'm daring to guess there isnt a Light Avatar yet, and maybe it will appear in ToAU storyline finale...

[Xaru]

I don't recall anything about a Dark Protocrystal in CoP or ToAU, can someone please elaborate?

[LD]

lerk mer.

[Sci]

I'm clueless on Alexander and the Light realm tho; it seems its energies were somehow used to build and move the colossus, but has him no will at all? and what about the Light Protocrystal?

Could be some sort of tie in to the Gordeus most likely.

[Priran]

tie in to the Gordeus

badum pssh

[Sagacious Sundi]

I'm clueless on Alexander and the Light realm tho; it seems its energies were somehow used to build and move the colossus, but has him no will at all? and what about the Light Protocrystal? I'm daring to guess there isnt a Light Avatar yet, and maybe it will appear in ToAU storyline finale...

Well, don't ACs contain energy from the astral plane? My guess is that the realms of each avatar lies in the astral plane. BRP (I think?) offerred the possibility of the 8 elemental stars (possibly actually giant crystals?) being the locations of where you fight the avatars (similar to the Empyreal Paradox).

I don't recall anything about a Dark Protocrystal in CoP or ToAU, can someone please elaborate?

Tuning Out shows a dark protocrystal in Bearclaw Pinnacle and mentions a god that woke up.

[Zilong]

There are 8 original sleeping gods. After a Zilart tried to bring about paradise, Emptiness escaped and devoured much of the land. The Zilart used the energy of the mothercrystals to restore it. (Unrelated, but it's mentioned in the same cutscene as the following sentence.) After the war between the Zilart and the wyrms, the Zilart summoned the sleeping gods to restore stuff. This caused them to sleep inside of crystals. Then the meltdown released that energy which fused with 8 creatures (some warrior, a "titan" (an extinct species of beastmen?), a serpent, a bird, an Elvaan queen, a Hume hermit, a machine, and a knight and his horse) creating the "celestial" avatars we know. It seems as though the things they fused with are merely vessels now, with the sentience coming from the god. Or they didn't fuse with anything, and the energy released simply became crystals, and the avatars we see in the protocrystals are the actual gods themselves.

Didn't the meltdown happened before the creation of the 5 races though? That would rule out shiva, ifrit and ramuh.

[Sagacious Sundi]

Well, maybe the energies flew around before settling. I'unno. >_>