Nyzul Weapon Discussion

[Spira]

Is PUP getting a relic frame crazy?

Yes. A relic frame would have to be better than the normal frames for people to want to upgrade to it, but the fact is that SE intended for all the frames (now at 4) to be balanced between them, so that player WILL mix and match frames to suit your needs. They each have strengths and weaknesses, but those are set in place by design.

By introducing a relic frame, players will only want to end up using that one, defeating the purpose of the customization... and if it cannot be better than the other 4 already, then theres really no point upgrading to it..

I don't forsee PUP getting any relic at all.. but the Nyzul weapon sounds promising.

Shouldn't that be the point of a Relic?

yes.. but a puppet is not just another weapon..

a puppet is as good as a pet with a job class.. unless you're stupid enough to actually come up and say that X job is the best job in the game, there can never be a 'best' frame.

The function of the head and frame is more than just stats.. its also determines their capacity, their positioning AI, their WS, their spell repertoire.. and each frame has a unique trait... which would seem impossible to squeeze into 1 relic frame. furthermore.. alot of these don't have a good/better quality about it. Is spellcasting good/bad? is standing close to the mob or far away good/bad? thats why its customizable...
and also why the concept of a 'best' relic frame would fail

[RKenshin]

i don't know about other weapons, but the dagger is pretty fucking overpowered. Sure, I'd love for it to be more overpowered, but i'm not losing any sleep over it.

Yeah, I feel the same way about GK.

But, one thing that's for certain is it's still pretty far from being comparable to the other FF game's relics. Especially for a few relics in particular.

In the other FFs you'd get relic and it was the undesputed best weapon for all situations with no doubts (generally), where as that isn't so much the case for XI's relics. I think they all could use a little bit of an upgrade still, but definitely some considerably more than others.

And every single job in the game has to carry a ridiculous amount of swapping gear for full effectiveness, so people need to give up on using that as an argument.

I'm not going to argue that plenty of jobs require them to lug around additional sets of armour, but with standard HNM meds, I usually hit the road at 56-58/60 as a 75 BLM... 2 open slots is a little annoying to have in your "standard" inventory.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most melee have Haste, STR (WS), & ACC sets, right? I'm lugging around Ele Skill, INT, MP, Resting, and Enfeebling gear, then 9 staves on top of that (Kirin's.) I'd appreciate a change to this.

None of my jobs can go less than 60/60 unless I leave some gear in my mog.

For each job I'll typically have a set of WS gear for meat, set of WS gear for sushi, a set of haste gear, a set of accuracy gear, a set of defense gear, occasionally a set of HP gear, along with misc other small things I'll normally need. Like, multiple sea gorgets for the different weapon skills (I have 5 total I think), sometimes I have additional sets of WS gear for specific WSs (like rampage, steel cyclone, raging all have different sets of gear), situational gear (like vampire earrings), sushi/attack food, and if I'm /NIN I have toolbags/shihei, or ninjutsu skill gear if I'm on NIN, or dark magic gear if I'm on DRK, and even magic defense gear in some situations. Then I always have at least 1 HQ stave on me (terras), and as many as 5 depending on my job and what I'm gearing up for.

A good deal of the gear overlaps, but it's still enough to put me over the 60/60 mark on all my jobs with just gear for that job in my inventory. I have around 40 spaces total in the mog/locker together, so I don't have to carry leftover gear from other jobs.

All in all I usually have to constantly move gear around so I'm bringing what I need most to a given event. I don't have enough for it all. But yeah, as Naga said it can be pretty bad for other jobs too.

[Jeryhn]

By introducing a relic frame, players will only want to end up using that one, defeating the purpose of the customization... and if it cannot be better than the other 4 already, then theres really no point upgrading to it...

It's a good thing there's no relic shield or relic instrument because having a variety of different types of both better lends itself to the customization of the jobs that use those items.

Oh wait...

[BRP]

By introducing a relic frame, players will only want to end up using that one, defeating the purpose of the customization... and if it cannot be better than the other 4 already, then theres really no point upgrading to it...

It's a good thing there's no relic shield or relic instrument because having a variety of different types of both better lends itself to the customization of the jobs that use those items.

Oh wait...

Are you saying the difference between a Harle Head / Storm Body and a Valoredge Body / Valoredge Head is the same as two instruments that give a +1 bonus to two different songs?

Because, wow.

[Hapernack]

Some of those Relic ideas are like putting lazer beams on sharks.

http://waf.eps.hw.ac.uk/images/WOW2/shark.jpeg

SHARKS WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS!!! is that too much to ask for?

[Ravenlokk]

Is PUP getting a relic frame crazy?

... the fact is that SE intended for all the frames (now at 4) to be balanced between them, so that player WILL mix and match frames to suit your needs...

By introducing a relic frame, players will only want to end up using that one, defeating the purpose of the customization... and if it cannot be better than the other 4 already, then theres really no point upgrading to it..

...

Hello Gjalhorn ^_^

but i still doubt they'd get a relic-frame

[Jeryhn]

By introducing a relic frame, players will only want to end up using that one, defeating the purpose of the customization... and if it cannot be better than the other 4 already, then theres really no point upgrading to it...

It's a good thing there's no relic shield or relic instrument because having a variety of different types of both better lends itself to the customization of the jobs that use those items.

Oh wait...

Are you saying the difference between a Harle Head / Storm Body and a Valoredge Body / Valoredge Head is the same as two instruments that give a +1 bonus to two different songs?

Because, wow.

You pretty much missed the point entirely.

[BRP]

Actually, you missed Spira's point. I completely understand what you are saying, but it isn't the case at all. Frames =/= weapons or instruments. A great deal of customization means a great deal of customization.

Frames are just too different to be labeled under one big buff. Making an analogy is somewhat pointless here because they don't work like anything else in the game, but it's more like combining jobs than equipment slots. The automaton becomes a whole new creature when you switch it's head or frame. Another attempt: It would be like taking someone who has BLM, RDM, WAR, and RNG leveled and making a single job to do everything.

[Gere]

Sorry to interrupt this lovely derail but, the sasuke katana has been obtained (link for those of you who only read advanced)

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/viewto ... 236#572236

[Spira]

sadly i think its because im talking to people who don't understand PUP at all.. nvm..

gogo testing on Sasuke~

[Nagamaki]

A little comment on what I meant about the current relic weapons.

Every single weapon currently has situations where it will not do the most damage of its weapon class for a specific purpose, and that just shouldn't be the case. Relic should always win on melee DoT, on WS in general regardless of TP amount, and so on. If there's any reasonable situation where relic will not do the most (on average), then there is something wrong in my opinion. The edge doesn't necessarily have to be gigantic in all situations and purposes, but there should simply always be one.

[safer]

they could solve alot of problems by making storage space more accessible

either make alzahbi more accessible from starter zones (perhaps use CP to warp to whitegate); not only will people go back to setting hp in starter cities thus relieving alot of congestion in whitegate, but also have like another 80 slots of storage space to use

or make storage accessible from all moghouses, however that doesnt solve the lag issue as the idea above

[Sagacious Sundi]

This thread shows just how much people care about PUP. A frame to end all frames would just mess up the idea of PUP -- having no static feats but instead being able to customize what you have to offer. Same goes for BLU's concept, and, in a way, SMN (although elementals and a few others are rarely used). Maybe SE also intended BLM/BRD to be more versatile and use more than just a handful of spells/songs, too.

I think they should just add BLU/COR/PUP to Excalibur/Annihilator/Spharai, but also add maybe more frames? Perhaps more specialized, like 1 for each element/attribute (Fire frame would have high fire capacity/STR/Attack, earth would have higher VIT/Defense, etc.) Wouldn't 8 more also make sense since aren't the frames in JP named after Zodiac thingies?

[Celebrindor]

although completely off topic, I sincerely doubt they'll ever add BLU to the Excalibur list.....simply because BLUs terrain is that of the scimitar, and I can see them adding a Relic Scimitar quite easily. Kinda sad right now that Shiva's Shotel is their best weapon, no matter how amazing it is for them.

As for COR to Annihilator, that I could see, but would prefer a relic hexagun just for consistency's sake.

PUP....I don't know nearly enough on PUP and their abilities to make comments related to a possible relic weapon for them.

------Back on topic-------

Eagerly awaiting testing of these Nyzul Weapons.....because at the moment my Assault points would be MUCH better spent on Salvage runs for Morrigan's versus Nyzul for Goliard. If these weapons turn out to be something quite amazing (and I'd say less than 50% of that being the case), well then things might just change.

In terms of weapons "only dropping if someone in the party has that job at 75"...I wouldn't put it totally outside the realm of possibility- not that I'd give SE enough credit to realize we're not talking an 18+ person fight where the odds are exceedingly high that someone can always equip every drop, but rather a 6 person fight that resets weeks worth of work after getting a weapon that possibly no one can equip. I'd definitely be quite impressed if SE threw out a bone to its playerbase that basically said "we Don't want to waste people's time." RIIIIIGHT.

[Quicklet]

A little comment on what I meant about the current relic weapons.

Every single weapon currently has situations where it will not do the most damage of its weapon class for a specific purpose, and that just shouldn't be the case. Relic should always win on melee DoT, on WS in general regardless of TP amount, and so on. If there's any reasonable situation where relic will not do the most (on average), then there is something wrong in my opinion. The edge doesn't necessarily have to be gigantic in all situations and purposes, but there should simply always be one.

I don't think this necessarily has to be the case. They just needed to add something that would make relic unique to other items, not necessarily "the best" in all situations. Examples: Aegis + Gjallarhorn, both do things that just cannot be reproduced by anything else in those slots. If SE came out with a reasonably attainable Ballad+2 instrument and a shield that could do half as much as Aegis does, those relics wouldn't be so special anymore.

The main issue is that the WSes and bonus effects from relic weapons typically don't proc enough or aren't unique enough to matter. Excalibur proc rate is something like 5%, but there's no enmity or damage redux on it and regen proc on KotR is mediocre. Adding abilities or effects to relic weapons that were unique or useful would be nice even if they weren't the best DoT in all situations.

As it stands, relics are nice but most are just status items for people who have the resources / oil to get them. They make some things easier, but any competent group could get by without them with substitute items. The only relics that can't be replaced are, like I said, Aegis + Gjallarhorn.

Hopefully the ToAU Nyzul Weapons will result in something special that people will want and that most dedicated endgame players can attain at some point, but I wouldn't keep your hopes up.

[Sagacious Sundi]

According to Somepage, BLU gets 3 longswords (what the Excalibur is.) PUP gets 9 knuckles, and COR gets a good amount of gun. If they do add relic scimitars/hexaguns/PUPthing, then Hazhalm seems like a good place to do so. I have a feeling that place will contain relic armor for the 3, relic accessories for 3, Ephramadian bronze/silver/mythril coins (ancient currency), maybe relic capes/belts for those that got belts/capes, relic accessories +1, etc.

[Terrance]

Every single weapon currently has situations where it will not do the most damage of its weapon class for a specific purpose, and that just shouldn't be the case.

They always look the coolest, and thats what counts.

[BRP]

Like I said, if you just put Critical Rate+5% and/or a TP Bonus(100) on it, you pretty much put enough distance from other weapons to make them the best. Sure, some multi-hit weapons might be able to compare.

I also think you shouldn't really think Relics to be the best in "every" situation. Like a Polearm that does Blunt damage might just be able to out do Relic Polearm on bones. But I agree, in most situations, it should be the very best.

[fantasticdan]

According to Somepage, BLU gets 3 longswords (what the Excalibur is.)

I actually went and checked this, and two out of three of those are incorrectly labeled (mightly talwar and hallowed sword), which are really scimitar and broadsword respectively. Only longsword blu can equip is level 20 platoon spatha.

[Scar]

they could solve alot of problems by making storage space more accessible

either make alzahbi more accessible from starter zones (perhaps use CP to warp to whitegate); not only will people go back to setting hp in starter cities thus relieving alot of congestion in whitegate, but also have like another 80 slots of storage space to use

or make storage accessible from all moghouses, however that doesnt solve the lag issue as the idea above

Or you could just pay 100 Imperial Standing Points, get your Silver Coin, have the warp taru send you to your hometown, put things into/take things out of storage, and warp back to Whitegate when you're finished?