Possible Earth like planet found

[Khamsin]

I don't think there's much of a question as to how connected the universe is. I may be misinterpreting what you meant, but this is how it seems.

I'm sure the entire universe could be represented as a giant cubical grid X-Y-Z coordinate system as long as you define the X, Y, and Z axes (which will be fairly arbitrary, like defining the X-axis as the line from the Sun to Earth). And, given this coordinate system, I could measure with confidence the distance between any two points no matter how far away or what is in the middle simply using the pythagorean theorem. Since the universe itself likely isn't cubical, some of the grid points would be undefined, but its just an arbitrary reference system... you could do the same with polar coordinates or anything else.

However, such a system would be rather pointless, just as developing a single unified X-Y-Z coordinate system for Earth would be pointless. It could be done, but having local datums and northings/eastings are easier for us to work with, and lat/long/bearings are easier for us to navigate. Hell, even the shortest path between two points on a map is an arc rather than a straight line, so its better just to come up with local systems that work for us.

Nonetheless, you could make an arbitrary coordinate system that applies to the entire universe and be certain that all spatial relationships within your established coordinate system will remain intact. The calculated distance from A to B would be the same as if you laid out a giant inflexible scale between A to B in the physical universe (assuming no material deflection, stuff in the way, etc). It would be a meaningless number, since it likely won't be the path of least resistance from A to B, but the spatial relationships will hold.

Afterall, you're in the universe right now. Point A is connected to Point B in the way you expect it to be, and there's no sudden jumps or elongations or compressions involved in the travel from one point to another due to the nature of (disconnected) dimensional space itself. Phenomena in space may cause some distortion, or even apparent elongation and compression due to relativistic scenarios, but I doubt space is disconnected in such a way that there is a location in the universe where moving a meter will actually move you twenty (in any single arbitrary coordinate system that includes both your origin and destination).

[Kaylia]

Imagine you've got a 3 dimensional space, with an X, Y, and Z axis. In that space you create a single plane that's slanted. Now, how do you "separate that plane from the rest of the dimensions". It doesn't even make sense mathematically, you try to rationalize it because human thought has no way of visualizing 4 dimensional spaces.

A video of a 3d graph = 4 dimensions >_>

OH SHIT, THE CLOCK IS TICKING. MILKWAY WAY IS GONNA COLLIDE WITH ANDROMEDA. GRAB ON SOMETHING, ITS GONNA SHAKE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda- ... _collision

Perturbation, super nova explosions, violent relaxation, etc... will cause the galaxy to change remarkably. We could be flung out into open space or we could be flung into the center of the newly forming galaxy. Although by the time any of that happened the sun would have already become a red giant and consumed the Earth..

Supar nova explosion will affect an extremly small region of space on a galactic level. Of course, there is big stuff out there that can wipe a planet easily, but a galaxy? No, it wont happen...well, if it does, it's not common and nowhere close to us.

Galaxy can "change" remarkably after a collision, but the solar system inside are barely going to be affected. If your is, just move to the closest one within the galaxy, chance is it wont.

It is not possible that a species born in this physical realm to detect another species living in another galaxy the way you said. There is physical constaint, no matter how intelligent you are. If this species want to survive, they would simply move to the closest planet that can hold life, not something 8 fucking billions years away.

Why do you keep saying this even though I never claimed they would know we were here? If there are aliens that have been travelling space since 6 billion years after the big bang, for instance, they would have had no trouble both colonizing every habitable planet in their galaxy as well as planets in other galaxies. It's just a matter of time, and they would have a lot of it.

You claimed many time they would know we are here using thore ultra advanced model that can determine if there is life or not on our planet.

The chance of finding those aliens you are talking about is about as high as to find a witch in Salem. No matter how advanced they are, there is physical constraint that would prevent them of doing what you are saying. In the hypothetical situation there spaceship is powered with magic crystal ( carbon + einsteinium + ??? ---> magic crystal), then yeah, your hypothesis is correct >_>

[Kaylia]

There is no such problem in using a wormhole or other pseudo-superluminal means of travel. So you'd agree it's possible? In which case it's possible for inter-galactic travel on small timescales? If you don't agree, you're playing the impossible card yet again, with no evidence may I add.

There is no mathematical problem using wormhole?

Huh? Galaxy formation is a continuing process. There are pictures right now on the hubble site looking at the formation of galaxies whether from collision or just from having regions of high star formation.

Stop....please....just stop. Those picture are 10 billions years old...when the universe was being formed. Seriously, just read the thread and let other argue with me. >_> At least their reasoning doesn't break physics laws.

[divisortheory]

I don't think there's much of a question as to how connected the universe is. I may be misinterpreting what you meant, but this is how it seems.

You're thinking wrong then, because there definitely is a question as to how connected the universe is. There's plenty of easy to find information on the internet about the structure of the universe.

Say you've got this theory that, as you said, "points a and b are connected just like you would expect them to be."

Now prove it, for all points in the universe. Also, make sure you define what it means to be "connected just like you would expect"

[Zhais]

Huh? Galaxy formation is a continuing process. There are pictures right now on the hubble site looking at the formation of galaxies whether from collision or just from having regions of high star formation.

Stop....please....just stop. Those picture are 10 billions years old...when the universe was being formed. Seriously, just read the thread and let other argue with me. >_> At least their reasoning doesn't break physics laws.

You're the one who said you cannot OBSERVE galaxies are being formed. Wether the images are from the past, or if they were emitted from our current era, they are the images of galaxies being formed. And you are observing them.

Galaxy can "change" remarkably after a collision, but the solar system inside are barely going to be affected. If your is, just move to the closest one within the galaxy, chance is it wont.

This 'moving to the closest one'.... isn't that the whole point of this thread and the topics discussed? Moving to nearby (relatively) planets?

[Kaylia]

Life could have existed as early as 4 billion years after the big bang. As galaxy formation progressed.

First planet can last until 9 billion, 2nd planet 13 bilions. You dont need to move so often.

Why don't you read about how a quantum computer would calculate things then come back and talk about it. It's glaringly obvious even from the wiki that conventional processing power is better for just about any non-random calculation.

I find funny you are denying the potential of quantum computer, when you talk about wormhole so openly. >_>

The speedup achieved by quantum computers could be just as large as for factoring. This could be a great boon to physics, chemistry, materials science, nanotechnology, biology and medicine, all of which are limited today by the slow speed of quantum mechanical simulations.

You say it's useless for modeling the "galaxy" to find life? Hell, that's exactly where we would need quantum computer. They arent better because of the fancy name, they are better because they they are much faster than conventional computer, and multiple state allow you to calculate exponential stuff a lot more easily.

[Kaylia]

Afterall, you're in the universe right now. Point A is connected to Point B in the way you expect it to be, and there's no sudden jumps or elongations or compressions involved in the travel from one point to another due to the nature of (disconnected) dimensional space itself. Phenomena in space may cause some distortion, or even apparent elongation and compression due to relativistic scenarios, but I doubt space is disconnected in such a way that there is a location in the universe where moving a meter will actually move you twenty (in any single arbitrary coordinate system that includes both your origin and destination).

Technically, when they send something in space they already consider the 4th dimension (gravity = space/time alteration), but yeah, it can be done with Newton laws mostly

I agree on a short scale, 3d model describe space accuraretly. Unless you go mess around black hole and neutron star, you should be fine. However, when you are talking about galactic cluster, expansion of space would have to be calculated since it's very real.

Say you've got this theory that, as you said, "points a and b are connected just like you would expect them to be."

Now prove it, for all points in the universe. Also, make sure you define what it means to be "connected just like you would expect"

With our current model, every point would be connected "the way you expect them to be connected". However, your question is basically, without our current (and accurate) model, prove that every point of the universe are connected, by testing it manually.

However, what's the point of ditching physics law? For any point within our reach, we will find they are connected normally, and that our current physics model predicted it to be that way.

Is it something that could be done?

[Khamsin]

I don't think there's much of a question as to how connected the universe is. I may be misinterpreting what you meant, but this is how it seems.

You're thinking wrong then, because there definitely is a question as to how connected the universe is. There's plenty of easy to find information on the internet about the structure of the universe.

Say you've got this theory that, as you said, "points a and b are connected just like you would expect them to be."

Now prove it, for all points in the universe. Also, make sure you define what it means to be "connected just like you would expect"

"Connected just like you would expect" is defined as moving distance L in a given direction, and ending up being L distance from where you were with no jumps, elongations or compressions in the process (due to the nature of the dimensional space you're traveling through, not relativistic measurements).

By "disconnected", do you mean:

a) isolated, as if the universe were made up of individual pools of space that are impossible to go between without being able to enter higher dimensions to bridge the gap, or;

b) projecting multiple dimensions of the universe onto a three dimensional representation of the universe (like projecting a 3D earth onto a 2D map thereby causing distortions), and ending up with something like

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ection.svg.png

where two points that are in close physical proximity in the universe appear far apart on our projected representation of the universe in three dimensional space, or;

c) the universe is actually disconnected, and you can't be sure that going any distance in any direction will put you where you thought you were. Suppose you are on point A, and you know the distance and direction to point C. Then you move to point B. Normally you would know the distance and direction to point C from your new location, but there may be somewhere in the universe at large for which you wouldn't know this for sure (with conventional means), or;

d) something else.

[divisortheory]

d) something else

Once again, it's not currently known.

[Kaylia]

You're the one who said you cannot OBSERVE galaxies are being formed. Wether the images are from the past, or if they were emitted from our current era, they are the images of galaxies being formed. And you are observing them.

In that case, I was just not clear in the way I expressed it. To predict the creation of a planet like the Earth, you would need an extremely accurate initial input of the distant galaxy, a huge 3d model of the density of the initial "cloud". To be able to distingate such detail 13 billions light year away is not possible, because there is many "space dust" or other artifact blocking the light, and you would need some fucking galaxy sized telescope to get such info. Technically, since every galaxy are similar, looking that far to find life is extremly pointless

Now, assuming they they overcome those "tecnical" difficulties, those galaxies in formation we can observe remain at 13 billions light years away. With the current "expansion of space", the distance this race would have to travel would be even greater. If they go at the speed of light, they won't be here anytime soon...hell, they wont make it in time before we die. Also, by the time they reach us, there is a good chance the universe is dead...or unable to support life because every sun would have "died".




Are you happy with this answer, or you still disagree? I can write a longer essay as to why it's not possible if you want.

This 'moving to the closest one'.... isn't that the whole point of this thread and the topics discussed? Moving to nearby (relatively) planets?

Blame enkidu for moving the problem to "other galaxy". That's why I'm laughing at him, because he just dig his grave deeper every posts he make.

He doesnt seem to understand the closer we are from Earth, the more realistic his example can be, but instead, he insist of talking about a colonization on a galactic level.

In my first counter example, I said a civilisation 100 light years away from us...he should have sticked with it.

[edit]
However, at the rate thing are going, he is gonna say "aliens that live outside our universe"...and in this case, he will be right I can't argue. Our physics can't escape the shape of our Universe. Imo, if we are ever contacted by something (unless they live really close), that contact will problably be from being from a higher "dimension".

[Kaylia]

d) something else

Once again, it's not currently known.

Open and expanding, stable or closed....in all 3 case, the way you go from A to B is the same. It will affect the distance, but it's safe to say the there is no "shortcut".

[Kuya]

Question: Is a wormhole the anomaly were space itself would bend in order to place two locations in the same "point" in space and time, so one could instnaly travel from point A to B? And if so, wouldn't using that method pose some kind of danger? Like colapse the fabric of space/time itself, or even tear it?

[Raineer]

Question: Is a wormhole the anomaly were space itself would bend in order to place two locations in the same "point" in space and time, so one could instnaly travel from point A to B? And if so, wouldn't using that method pose some kind of danger? Like colapse the fabric of space/time itself, or even tear it?

Essentially, it would be like a tear but theoretically temporary (while it's reffered to as a bend instead.) And yes there's great danger since it's doubtful a complex organism could survive the trip, but that's why we make all these assumptions given a civilization far advanced from where humans are today.

[Kaylia]

Question: Is a wormhole the anomaly were space itself would bend in order to place two locations in the same "point" in space and time, so one could instnaly travel from point A to B? And if so, wouldn't using that method pose some kind of danger? Like colapse the fabric of space/time itself, or even tear it?

The only thing we know that can manipulate space/time is masses/energy, so technically speaking, there is no way to open a worm hole between 2 points using what physics offer to us.

In the hypothetical situation a wormhole linked A to B (in our dimension)is created, it could lead to many problems, but it always depend of how it's made. I've some doubt you could have a human entering in one side, and a human exiting on the other side (it's not gonna look like an human, probably not even look like atoms).

It has about everything you need to know about wormhole. Good explanation imo (I wish we had wiki "in my times"..so easy to use and useful, and incredibly accurate despite what people say)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole

Worm hole could exist if we could find "antigravity" matter, but there is no hint it exists in our universe. We wont know until our gravity models, but the chance we can create "antigravity" is rather unlikely, since none is observable in space

[Kuya]

How would travel through a wormhole exactly affect a organism? Tear it apart, compress it, or something...?

[Raineer]

How would travel through a wormhole exactly affect a organism? Tear it apart, compress it, or something...?

Could be similar to what gets spewed from a black hole, pure energy as far as we know.

[Kaylia]

How would travel through a wormhole exactly affect a organism? Tear it apart, compress it, or something...?

Because you need to bend time/space in a small section space, creating huge force difference between 2 section of the hole, tearing you apart.

Basically, you would become a big spaghetti

[Ddz]

How would travel through a wormhole exactly affect a organism? Tear it apart, compress it, or something...?

Could be similar to what gets spewed from a black hole, pure energy as far as we know.

watch moar donnie darko :D

[Enkidu]

Galaxy can "change" remarkably after a collision, but the solar system inside are barely going to be affected. If your is, just move to the closest one within the galaxy, chance is it wont.

Unless... for instance... there isn't one to move to... Or maybe they just don't feel like moving to one in their galaxy? Maybe they want to test the waters? It's fucking speculation for gods sake, the only thing that matters is whether or not it's possible, and it is possible.

You claimed many time they would know we are here using thore ultra advanced model that can determine if there is life or not on our planet.

Please show me where I claimed that. You seem to be confusing the possibility of life or just the possibility of a life sustaining planet, with actually finding life. My point was simple. An advanced civilization would be able to determine whether or not a galaxy is of the right type to produce solar systems. They could then travel to this galaxy in some way or another, whether it takes them 200 million years or 10 days - you do not know. Once there, they could search for solar systems that would have planets habitable for them, possibly planets quite different from ours. It's not impossible and like I said, with around 8-9 billion years of time to accomplish this is could have already been done countless times by other species. Then again we could also be the only planet in the universe with life...

The chance of finding those aliens you are talking about is about as high as to find a witch in Salem. No matter how advanced they are, there is physical constraint that would prevent them of doing what you are saying. In the hypothetical situation there spaceship is powered with magic crystal ( carbon + einsteinium + ??? ---> magic crystal), then yeah, your hypothesis is correct >_>

Are you high? You can't claim any knowledge on what they would use for travel and what physical constraints they would encounter, you can only do that with HUMANS. Stop anthropomorphizing aliens, it's ridiculous.

First planet can last until 9 billion, 2nd planet 13 bilions. You dont need to move so often.

Oh yeah, you know how long whichever planet a species happened to evolve on will last, that's a great scientific theory . You also seem to think that aliens or even humans will be happy just sticking to one planet until it's unhabitable. Newsflash - we aren't happy being on just one planet now.

I find funny you are denying the potential of quantum computer, when you talk about wormhole so openly. >_>

You say it's useless for modeling the "galaxy" to find life? Hell, that's exactly where we would need quantum computer. They arent better because of the fancy name, they are better because they they are much faster than conventional computer, and multiple state allow you to calculate exponential stuff a lot more easily.

Wow you really need some reading comprehension.

1. I never claimed quantum computers don't have potential
2. I never claimed they have little use
3. I claimed conventional computer are better at classical computations
4. I claimed that quantum computers are better at random computations

Now how did you go from point A to point X? If there is a civilization that has been around since 8 billion years ago, I'm sure they have quantum computers. They probably look at them as we look at caveman handprints on cave walls, however. The sheer ignorance in thinking we're anywhere close to a maximum in computational power just astounds me. Have fun living in your little box.

[Kuya]

How would travel through a wormhole exactly affect a organism? Tear it apart, compress it, or something...?

Because you need to bend time/space in a small section space, creating huge force difference between 2 section of the hole, tearing you apart.

Basically, you would become a big spaghetti

Damn why can't it be like Xenosaga and get amazing super powers (but without the crazy)

But, even though we can't travel through long distances in space, could we still use machines to do it for us? Other than making them wander space for some millenia, what size, or what would we need ot make a machine out of in order to survive the speed of light or travel through a wormhole?