SMN Perpetuation Cost

[Nirokun!]

if they remove perp costs... they damn well convert -perp to +refresh.. or some useful stat..... attack +%, crit +%, str +%, accuracy +%

i dont think that a scaled or merited job trait that gives -perp is *terrible*... i have max -perp and i dont find it useful outside of fenrir-kiting (as opposed to carby-kiting for you non-summoners out there) because a lot (ALL LOL) HNM smn is BP=>Release. I wouldnt worry, i dont think SE would do something retarded like remove perpetuation costs... its in the story (at least in the Vana'diel Tribune entry on smn):

When I next met the summoner, he greeted me by saying, "I finally got them," and showing off the mittens he was wearing. The were, at first glance, unremarkable. The summoner informed me that they were in fact valuable items that eased the strain of summoning.

[Mellowy]

Avatars don't need healing and can have their enmity zeroed at a whim. Yes it would be broken.

especially in solo situations.

If Amazon lets me gift order virgins in packs of 1000, expect a package on your doorstep within 2-3 business days.

This is exactly what I've been thinking.

And I've told you atleast 10 times why you are wrong.

Avatars need no healing, true.
Avatars can have their enmity zeroes at a whim, true.

No perpetuation means added melee damage. Which means we are talking about added melee damage, everything else already exist.

Back to the no healing issue. When does the avatar get hit? While soloing, when BPing, or by AOE or possibly avatar burn.
AOE is fixed with curaga, which means MP is not the problem (but it saves the healer a little bit of curing hate).
BPing is unrelated since even without free perpetuation, we have BPs. (You could argue the tanking part of 5-10 seconds should be perpetuated, but then can't we just say SMN lose MP only when avatars are hit?)
Soloing... already have carby as free, end of discussion.
Avatar burn, well, what is the difference between a perpetuation free avatar burn and a mana burn? (If the mob is sleepable, I guess they are about even. Now the question if mana burn should be nerfed or not is another question.)

Now for enmity. When is enmity noticable? Again, 70BPs and soloing.
Soloing... again carby.
70BPs... again, free perpetuation doesn't effect 70BPs at all.

So the enmity issue is also debunked. Unless you are going to claim a party avatar would steal hate from a WAR or MNK with their melee hits.

Seriously, re-read your posts. Those are excellent arguments if the questions were "Should SMN get 70BPs?" or "Should SE implement carby mitts?", but since they already exist, you are claiming removing perpetuation would give SMN the powers SMN already has. And that is a pretty bad argument against a change.

I'm sorry for exposing you all to "Alla logic" but it seems so obvious to me that perpetuation cost is a necessary evil. I'm looking to hear some more-educated opinions, even if they're not necessarily in agreement with me.

I also felt the need to state that removal of perpetuation is something I have no problem with, but as I've posted at other places it is far from the only way. It is of course the blunt and easy way of fixing it, without any, to me, obvious problems. (like what is the difference between soloing with carby and soloing with free other avatar? BPing build up hate, so you'd not want to do it too often, and if you do, your MP disappear anyway so why need perpetuation aswell?)

It may very well be a necessary evil, but it doesn't have to be so big.

Removing it altogether doesn't justify the Cheap Summon Cost or the relatively cheap Bloodpact cost. To maintain balance, you'd have to adjust the summon cost to 10 times what it is, and Bloodpacts would need to be easily twice their normal cost.

The cheap cost is because you need to switch avatars occasionally (which is every time your BP rage and BP ward isn't on the same avatar). Also the double BP cost is a hilarius suggestion because that is how SMN is today. Pretend you have 0 perpetuation, SMN, perpetuation 1 minute, BP, see how you just lost 2x BP cost in MP since you began. Now of course this could be an option if you want to keep SMNs BPing just as rarely as before, but having free avatars.

Infact it isn't that dumb at all. Same summoning cost, no perpetuation, double BP cost. Of course you'd be pretty sad to pay 300 MP for 50 damage occasionally, aswell as you'd probably be sad over the split BP system meaing you spend 500 MP every minute. But hey, "it is balanced" according to people on the BG forums so it has to be good?

Hmmm, yeah, I need to stop doing this...

Suggestions are good for you. Keep doing them. Only problem with comparing to melee is that you find an enormous amount of injustice. (food option? gear options? etc)

why does SE have to remove it from the game, when they give us more than enough gear to do it ourselves

Well, for starters that is endgame "fixes". You won't get any -14 perp at level 5,10,15,25,50,55,60, even barely at 70. It is all there at 75. So yea, in a way SMN is fine at level 75, and need fixing the other "unimportant" levels. But you have to agree with me that requiring full endgame armor to play a job as it would seem like it was meant to be played, is a bit harsh. Do every WAR need a ridill before they get invited to DD? (and that is 1 endgame item out of those 8 SMN needs).

I'm not saying SMN doesn't work without less perpetuation, I'm simply saying it would make it easier to keep a pet summoned, which is fun. And I'd assume people play FFXI for fun, or is it only for superior complexes?

I'd be really pissed if my full af2 set and evk. pigaches+1 became totally worthless for the perp cost.

Actually I'm (obviously) one of the people who don't mind perpetuation disappering. I happen to have all the -perpetuation gear in the game (sans junk like astral signa, bahamut staff, dragon staff, NQ staffs (since I have HQ), levi's gloves). While you think of it as making armors useless, you could think about all the armors you could wear in their places (hands could instead of nashira be +accuracy relic hands), aswell as those armors could get a different effect. A simple "find and replace" run of the code making -perpetuation instead give +SMN magic (not something I'd want, but just an example) could be done.

Instead of free avatars, let players rest while they have a summon out, lose perpetuation but allow normal resting.

It is an option, that I'm not particularly against either. Of course I have one usual complaint about it. You ARE going to be invited to heal, and you can't do that while resting. So while an excellent change for solo or avatar burn parties, your regular pickup party would render that change useless. The biggest win with this is that it saves TP (if you enjoy MBing).

Isn't SMN already broken enough, that people want to break it even more ?

You are right. But there is more to this world than black and white. If you are going to be narrow minded, NIN is broken, WAR is broken, BST is broken, DRG is broken, healing magic is broken, BLM is broken. Need I go on?

While SMN is positively broken on endgame, it is negatively broken in the other parts of the game. An all around balance would be nice. I'd gladly sacrifice my endgame role (which usually is healing) for being able to fool around with pets in the other parts of the game.

i dont think SE would do something retarded like remove perpetuation costs... its in the story

Neither do I. But since you got 2 BP timers when people asked for 4-5 timers, asking for 0 perpetuation, might give us 5 perpetuation. Ask for too much, recieve an avarage result. Have to be a little careful though so you don't make them discard the idea as too far fetched from the beginning.

[Halcyon]

I didn't read this thread beyond the title because I'm 100% sure it's full of a lot of needless bullshit and butthurt replies but as a 75SMN I'm less concerned with having an Avatar to Melee (lol) than getting more -BP gear.

Having perp cost removed from SMN would just turn SMN into another BST or worse another lolPUP (God knows what SE was thinking with THAT one).

We don't need 2 of the same job.

[Sagacious Sundi]

I wouldnt worry, i dont think SE would do something retarded like remove perpetuation costs... its in the story (at least in the Vana'diel Tribune entry on smn):

When I next met the summoner, he greeted me by saying, "I finally got them," and showing off the mittens he was wearing. The were, at first glance, unremarkable. The summoner informed me that they were in fact valuable items that eased the strain of summoning.

I was going to post that. Anyway, the most I can see them do is simply adjust avatar strength/perpetuation cost slightly. If people want to hang out with their avatars so damn much, maybe they could make it that perp. cost is less when not engaged (and you need to be engaged to use Rage Blood Pacts), but that would just be silly/stupid. They should also add some -perp. to Marduk and maybe Goliard. (-1/2 on Marduk's shalwar and -1 on Goliard chapeau?)

[Halcyon]

I actually made the mistake of going back and reading the thread and I feel dumber for it.

I want those 90 seconds of my life back

[Rentwokay]

In case you couldn't tell from the train of quotes, Mellowy is the one who came up with this idea originally.

And now that she has an account at BG, be prepared to have every discussion derailed with how fixing SMN is more important than the whatever else is the focal point of the thread.

[Bakthi]

Having perp cost removed from SMN would just turn SMN into another BST or worse another lolPUP (God knows what SE was thinking with THAT one).

No, because unlike BST, you'd (still) be able to actually use your job's defining abilities in Lumoria.

[Halcyon]

Having perp cost removed from SMN would just turn SMN into another BST or worse another lolPUP (God knows what SE was thinking with THAT one).

No, because unlike BST, you'd (still) be able to actually use your job's defining abilities in Lumoria.

pssssssssssssst.


(that's why I added the lolPUP comparison)

[Rescue]

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. I want my 10 minutes back that I spent reading this garbage…….

[Khamsin]

edit: to further elaborate... its not -perp cost thats wrong with the summoner, its everything else.. merit BP's are useless and cost too much mp , also there is still not alot a summoner can do aside from merits, to enhance its job compared to what other jobs can do to enhance themselves

I agree.

Of all the things that should get fixed on smn it's not the perp cost, it's a lot of other things.

I'm glad they changed skill but it could have been a little bit better. They really need to give smn more bps to play with and beef up some of the ones they have.

I always felt that levi or garuda should get a raise 2 bp that took up tons of mana (more than normal raise 2). It wouldn't "lessen whms" too much because a: on a 1 minute timer and b. should take up a lot of mp. But would still give another job with a higher raise spell. It'll never happen though. -.-;

Raise 2 BP that takes tons of mana is fine, as long as its AoE like other SMN-modified buffs. But I don't think it really fits on Leviathan or Garuda. If they ever added something like that, it'd probably be in the form of another Carby BP, but I don't really see any of this happening anyway.

[Jeryhn]

You realize that if there was no perp cost, the SMN could just rest WHILE their avatar melee'd, right?

why do you automatically assume that?
"you cannot heal while you have an avatar summoned." is the message i get when i attempt to rest now with a free carby out, i dont think it is related to the mp drain.

Actually, that's exactly what it could be.

Avatar Perpetuation Cost caps at -1mp/tick.
The Auto Refresh trait counts towards perpetuation first.

Essentially, your avatars are always costing at least 1mp tick, but because of the order in which the cost is recalculated (Cost > Auto Refresh > Perpetuation Cost Gear > Refresh Gear), with equipment effects coming last, you have a free Carbuncle, but you still can't rest while he's summoned.

[Fryte]

If they made Rolling Thunder based off SMN magic skill instead of Enhancing Magic skill, that'd change how SMNs work in merit parties pretty well. Let's start with that fix and move from there.

A revamp on how avatar magic works would be greatly appreciated as well. I hate that my lvl75 merit BPs blow chunks and so do the "omgsuperpowerful" Astral Flow tier of spells. They're supposed to be the -avatar- of that element. They should be able to land Blizzard IV for more than 86 damage. I would even settle for a more customized version of the current avatars, like if Shiva had insanely boosted Magic Accuracy/Attack, but supergimp melee, and the opposite for say Ifrit.

[Taj]

Avatars would be awesome tanks if you could trick attack onto them. >: It'd be nice if another SMN's Ward BP would hit your Avatars, too. Like if you have two SMNs in one party and one uses Ecliptic Howl, the other avatar won't get the buff. It's dumb.

[layoneil]

Raise 2 BP that takes tons of mana is fine, as long as its AoE like other SMN-modified buffs. But I don't think it really fits on Leviathan or Garuda. If they ever added something like that, it'd probably be in the form of another Carby BP, but I don't really see any of this happening anyway.

there's only one Avatar suitable for those kinds of BPs - Phoenix.

[safer]

You realize that if there was no perp cost, the SMN could just rest WHILE their avatar melee'd, right?

why do you automatically assume that?
"you cannot heal while you have an avatar summoned." is the message i get when i attempt to rest now with a free carby out, i dont think it is related to the mp drain.

Actually, that's exactly what it could be.

Avatar Perpetuation Cost caps at -1mp/tick.
The Auto Refresh trait counts towards perpetuation first.

Essentially, your avatars are always costing at least 1mp tick, but because of the order in which the cost is recalculated (Cost > Auto Refresh > Perpetuation Cost Gear > Refresh Gear), with equipment effects coming last, you have a free Carbuncle, but you still can't rest while he's summoned.

easy to test... astral flow with carbuncle out and see if you can rest mp... i'd do it but im at work atm.. maybe tonight when i get home

If they made Rolling Thunder based off SMN magic skill instead of Enhancing Magic skill, that'd change how SMNs work in merit parties pretty well. Let's start with that fix and move from there.

wut? since when did enhancing skill have anything to do with it.. smn has no other magic skill besides summoning magic

[Rakshaka]

The enhancing magic skill of the player that receives the "Rolling Thunder" buff determines how much damage the enthunder effect will do. Just pretend the player cast enthunder on themself, it's the same thing.

[Jeryhn]

The enhancing magic skill of the player that receives the "Rolling Thunder" buff determines how much damage the enthunder effect will do. Just pretend the player cast enthunder on themself, it's the same thing.

Uh, no. A summoner that uses Rolling Thunder on my RDM does not cause the Enspell effect I receive to suddenly start dealing 17 damage, nor does this occur when an RDM/SMN decides to have a summoned Ramuh perform Rolling Thunder. Rolling Thunder is a static Enthunder buff and its damage never goes up or down unless you factor in mob weakness/resistance.

Seriously, where on earth did you hear this one? It's not even close to correct.

[aurik]

wtfl;dr

Way to read my comment out of context, retard.

[Ksandra]

edit: to further elaborate... its not -perp cost thats wrong with the summoner, its everything else.. merit BP's are useless and cost too much mp , also there is still not alot a summoner can do aside from merits, to enhance its job compared to what other jobs can do to enhance themselves

I agree.

Of all the things that should get fixed on smn it's not the perp cost, it's a lot of other things.

I'm glad they changed skill but it could have been a little bit better. They really need to give smn more bps to play with and beef up some of the ones they have.

I always felt that levi or garuda should get a raise 2 bp that took up tons of mana (more than normal raise 2). It wouldn't "lessen whms" too much because a: on a 1 minute timer and b. should take up a lot of mp. But would still give another job with a higher raise spell. It'll never happen though. -.-;

Raise 2 BP that takes tons of mana is fine, as long as its AoE like other SMN-modified buffs. But I don't think it really fits on Leviathan or Garuda. If they ever added something like that, it'd probably be in the form of another Carby BP, but I don't really see any of this happening anyway.

well only reason why I said levi or garuda was because of they have healing bps. Carby does too but I would think that se would rather you earn that kind of bp off of getting one of the other avatars versus carby who is basically the default avatar. Though like someone posted above, FF-wise phoniex would be the real one to get it. If we ever actually got that as a summon.

I agree though it'll never happen, it's just something I'd like to see/have.

[aurik]

They could always make new BPs unlockable, through something like an alliance fight against the prime avatar. Oh wait, I remember them adding something like that already...