Discussion on relic weilders with selling gear to fund relic

[Aodh]

Relic is the biggest thing someone in FFXI can get, and anyone who accomplishes it should feel proud.

Reading through the comments, this stands out. How proud can you be to have something which was handed to you? It's an achievement if you earn it, otherwise it's just another item. You mentioned the time spent being a 'cost', but that's not alone. Everyone that goes each run is putting in the same time, but they're not getting a relic.

You're kidding, right? If circumstances landed a ridill in your lap when you really never expected one you wouldn't be the least bit 'proud' to have it?

Which would you be proud about?

If you won a Car in a lottery would you be proud or happy? As opposed to working at a job and earning money and buying your own car.

Being given something, I'd be thankful, earning something I'd be proud.

[Senoska]

Relic is the biggest thing someone in FFXI can get, and anyone who accomplishes it should feel proud.

Reading through the comments, this stands out. How proud can you be to have something which was handed to you? It's an achievement if you earn it, otherwise it's just another item. You mentioned the time spent being a 'cost', but that's not alone. Everyone that goes each run is putting in the same time, but they're not getting a relic.

Any r/ex gear that you got off any mob is completely pointless. You didn't pay anything for it. An LS made relic is just as good, just as big, and something the holder should most defiantly be proud of. That's like saying someone getting a ridill, and they can't be proud of themselves because they didn't pay for it. Or a defending ring, you can't be proud because you didn't pay for it.

[Ryko]

Crazy huh? I have to still pay some people off so I can't out of pocket anything for an HQ bow, not that any are selling, so I snipe -1's to try to get an HQ.

There's one (-1) up now (says ffxiah.com) go get it. No excuses.

(and uh woops I said Rocl instead of Ryko but oh well)

That bow HQed >_> thanks.

[Xavier]

He isn't the Pope of Yin for nothing.

[jaryk]

sounds like a whiny emo rant here. divisor is right though. you don't have a relic, you don't know shit. your points concerning relic, where ever they are, are promptly discredited.

oh, and you're a tool.

You're right, because I don't have it that automatically discredits me from making a decision on whether or not I agree with Aurik's opinion... that makes perfect sense.... *roll*. I think this girl must give fantastic head, since Aurik's offhanded comment on gear in general has gotten a fuckton of people to jump to her defense. If this was a guy, this screenshot probably would have been posted in the gimp section already and people would be ridiculing to no end.

[Rocl]

Crazy huh? I have to still pay some people off so I can't out of pocket anything for an HQ bow, not that any are selling, so I snipe -1's to try to get an HQ.

There's one (-1) up now (says ffxiah.com) go get it. No excuses.

(and uh woops I said Rocl instead of Ryko but oh well)

That bow HQed >_> thanks.

You are welcome, my son. Now you are not gimp!

[RKenshin]

If you won a Car in a lottery would you be proud or happy? As opposed to working at a job and earning money and buying your own car.

Being given something, I'd be thankful, earning something I'd be proud.

So does running/attending dynamis without fail twice a week for 3+ hours, for years now, not constitute as working for something? Especially when you don't really have any AF you need/want? Not just that either, but LS event attendance is often (if not always) a big factor as well.

Personally I've been capped on the useful AF I've wanted for a really long time in most areas, and I still attend every single dynamis run with few exceptions (like going into Boston yesterday for Bday). I spent about 70-80m or so out of my own funds for my relic, and I can honestly say if I took all that time I spent in dynamis and spent it farming instead, I could've funded all of my own relic by now while still attending runs rather often. Hell winter break during the mega inflation I made over 50m from just casual farming, which is around the same time I started buying currency. Albeit it wouldn't be as fast as the LS funding most of my upgrade (to which I'm still incredibly grateful for), I'm confident that I'd still be able to do it on my own if I had to.

So how is spending large amounts of your time/money on dynamis to earn a relic, any different from spending large amounts of your time/money farming to earn instead?

IMO effort in a video game isn't measured by how much gil you can make as much as it is how much time you invest (and the quality of that time), and I'd argue that matters more than anything else.


EDIT: By the way, that example in the quote was completely inaccurate. By your example, a random person who put little to no effort into getting a new car just one a new car. The idea of a linkshell upgrading some random person that put no effort into earning the relic... Is laughable.

[Beckwin]

Plenty of people show up for dynamis for years, and not every one of them gets a relic for it. Please tell me you can make that distinction.

[Lordwafik]

topic did the splits

[Xavier]

Plenty of people show up for dynamis for years, and not every one of them gets a relic for it. Please tell me you can make that distinction.

I already made the distinction by saying I didn't feel the same sense of personal accomplishment for my relic. However, to say that there is no sense of accomplishment attached to a ls-funded relic isn't accurate. At the very least, the linkshell as a whole would feel the same sense of accomplishment as the individual who privately funds their relic, embodied through whoever they decided to give it to. Its not the same, but its not null-in-void either.

[RKenshin]

Plenty of people show up for dynamis for years, and not every one of them gets a relic for it. Please tell me you can make that distinction.

Please tell me you can make the distinction between the fact that in general a lot of people do dynamis, and the fact that there are people that attend dynamis much more often than the general population.

My linkshell's average attendance is 44% over several months of record keeping, however there are only 3 people out of the 56 I track with over 90% attendance.

I really run into this problem a lot as someone that actually takes attendance at events, and nothing is more aggravating than people that fail to realize the above. I'm not sure many people can relate to this as not many take attendance but, you get quite a few members that are rarely around but have the confidence to say "I've been attending dynamis for years and deserve a relic as much as anyone else" and you just want to say "What!?" I'll take the same person, look at their attendance, and see they attend maybe 15-50% of the time at best. Many people seem to fall into this illusion about how much they attend.

Keeping in mind, that I said not only do you have to have good attendance in dynamis for shells that sponsor... But you also have to have good attendance in LS events for the corresponding shell, that attendance % just gets lower. I think it's safe to say that, most linkshells that sponsor a relic do it not just because of that person's commitment in dynamis, but their commitment with the LS as a whole. How many linkshells sponsor someone so that member can use their Aegis/whatever for a competing linkshell? Or for skipping events to exp? Etc.

Now, when you factor in both dynamis and linkshell attendance... The amount of people that can honestly say "I've attended years worth of dynamis and LS events", is dwindled down to a very small handful of people. And you know what? That handful of people all either has a relic, is being upgraded, or is in consideration for being upgraded in the near future for most linkshells.

Now, please tell me you can look past the simple faux pau of assuming that a lot of people attend dynamis/events on a day to day basis, and therefor a lot of people deserve relics... And see that, really only very few people actually attend dynamis/events to the level I was speaking of earlier, that equates to the time that could've been invested otherwise into farming for something of this price.

This is without even getting into the fact it takes a lot more work to run/organize dynamis than to just attend. Like as someone that has been calling out the mobs for the last 1-2 years, I don't have the luxury of going afk as often as most people tend to in dynamis.

[Ryko]

Now, when you factor in BOTH dynamis and linkshell attendance... The amount of people that can honestly say, I've attended years worth of dynamis and LS events, is dwindled down to a very small handful of people. And you know what? That handful of people all either has a relic, is being upgraded, or is in consideration for being upgraded in the near future.

Notable exceptions aside in what I'm sure is every shell, that's pretty much totally and completely true.

[Beckwin]

What, do you want me to say that your anecdotal evidence about dynamis attendance beats mine? Ok.

Your focus seems to be on higher-profile, hardcore players, but bottom line is that there are a lot of more casual players who have been grinding dynamis for years. Typically they don't do it as part of a general endgame shell, so being silver-plattered a relic isn't an option and if they aren't talented/devoted enough to make the gil needed to sponsor and/or buy some currency, they don't upgrade relics. However, when it comes to dynamis, their time spent is no different than someone in an endgame shell who is sponsored for a relic. There's really no debate about it. Also keep in mind that private funders typically get most of their currency through sponsoring runs (unless their funding is of the IGE variety), which also puts them on the same level of dynamis time as the previous two examples.

[Ryko]

Your focus seems to be on higher-profile, hardcore players, but bottom line is that there are a lot of more casual players who have been grinding dynamis for years.

Yeah and they go 166 runs (in 3 years) with 0 wins in xarc

Sorry, had to.

[Xavier]

-BG doesn't let people sponsor runs, because it wants to maintain control over currency, and relics are put to a vote when theres enough currency to get one nearly done.

-BG doesn't let people attend Dynamis with other shells.

-I've been in BG since the second week it was founded (a few breaks, never any other LS), currently the oldest active member.

With those three things in mind, it'd be impossible for me to sponsor a run, impossible for me to do a run with anyone else, and I've been relatively speaking, doing the runs the longest. I understand what you're saying on a straight "time-invested" point of view, but in your example you cite a person who doesn't do dynamis w/ a single linkshell, but has been with multiple ones over the course of time.

However, when it comes to dynamis, their time spent is no different than someone in an endgame shell who is sponsored for a relic.

Their time was spent differently, it wasn't spent in a linkshell that sponsors relic, it was spent attending dynamis with various people at their own leisure. The situations aren't the same, so the expectations shouldn't be either.

Edit: Attending dynamis with the knowledge that the linkshell is going to upgrade relics on the basis of usefulness to the linkshell vs. attending dynamis outside of those parameters for af2/etc aren't the same thing to me. Thats all I'm really trying to say.

[RKenshin]

What, do you want me to say that your anecdotal evidence about dynamis attendance beats mine? Ok.

No, I'm saying that your general statement about dynamis wasn't accurate. A very large number of people do dynamis on a regular basis and have been for a long time, but that doesn't mean that every single person that does has put forth insane amounts of effort that fall under the category I mentioned earlier.

In my examples, I was trying to show that there are [a usually small number of] people that make substantial amounts of additional effort over the general population to earn it through their LS. And, those are the people that usually 'earn' the relics through that substantial amount of extra work.

The same exact thing could be said for people that try to make gil through farming/crafting/whatever. Take the above paragraph, and it can easily be changed to this:

In my examples, I was trying to show that there are people that make substantial amounts of additional effort over the general population to make money. And, those are the people that usually 'earn' the relics through that substantial amount of extra work.

Is that not true for both situations? It's a good deal of extra work in either way, just different forms. Debating which may take more work or be more difficult is pointless as it varies with opinions, so taking it further than that unecessary.

[Thitaubian]

...anecdotal evidence...

I got the impression that ruke can actually look at attendence records.
I doubt you're requesting to see his LS attendence list.

[Luke]

Now that relics are popping up everywhere, people are trying to find ways to say "I > this guy with the same thing because of X" imo.

There IS a difference between upgrading your relic fully by yourself or being chosen to receive a fully-LS funded relic. Sure, both worked for it, but the guy that was chosen to receive one probably wasn't the only one in the LS who participated a lot in dynamis/LS events.

"Solo" relic-upgrade = personal accomplishment; LS-funded = LS acomplishment. Someone who got it "handed" to them from their LS has no right to judge someone else for doing it a different way.

Think about it, a LS-accomplished relic probably isn't going to be handed to one of their non-active/non-geared members; it's going to be given to one of their strongest/most dedicated members, which guess what, means they already have great gear from going to events all the time.

So, in conclusion, I don't see how one can argue against the other..

Also, can't help but laugh that every time someone is trying to make a point about FFXI, they have to bring in Ridill as a comparison. Btw Ruke/Ryko, forgot which, you can feel happy and lucky about getting lucky on a Ridill/D.ring drop, but it doesn't necessarily mean you worked for/"earned" it. Hard to be proud about something that you simply got lucky with.

omgwalloftext. Not to start a loot distribution war again, but I'd rather see a WAR20 get a Ridill who's put in a lot of time than someone who has all jobs that can use at 75 and just joined the LS. Recently a guy in an NA LS on my server got Ridill just because they had no other WAR75's there, and guess what, he stopped playing for about 2 weeks then came back and was in another LS, lol. Allthewhile the THF in their LS who's been going to their camps forever doesn't get shit and watches it go to waste. My point is... time invested makes the accomplishment more of an accomplishment. If this WAR spent 12 months in the first LS trying to get Ridill, I doubt he'd walk away so easily.

[Ryko]

Btw Ruke/Ryko, forgot which, you can feel happy and lucky about getting lucky on a Ridill/D.ring drop, but it doesn't necessarily mean you worked for/"earned" it. Hard to be proud about something that you simply got lucky with.

Note that I mentioned nothing of accomplishment or self-worth or time put in or whatever, just that you'd be proud to have one. For example: My ridill and adaberk happened over the course of 3 days, I was first for both for various reasons (LS leader, most active member, most jobs on a single character that could use both effectively, etc.) so while the drops were luck, I of course had a sense of earning it.

My D.ring, on the other hand, was a complete byproduct of circumstance. Now all those things I listed in the parentheses were and are still true (though I did have a 2-3 month break due to some bad luck and my PC being complete shit for a while, I'd give most consistently active member to vile now) but my getting it at all was because the people who should have gotten it not being there or having to go afk, I'm the first to say that it was entirely luck based, but if anyone said I didn't "earn" it I'd laugh in their face. Sometimes luck is just that something is unlikely, not that the person involved shouldn't have been the recipient of such luck.

[RKenshin]

...anecdotal evidence...

I got the impression that ruke can actually look at attendence records.
I doubt you're requesting to see his LS attendence list.

I didn't get that impression, but really... Why would I make this up?

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7109/attlf5.jpg

Proof enough I'm serious? lol

I'm obviously not going to start listing people's names and such.

Also, can't help but laugh that every time someone is trying to make a point about FFXI, they have to bring in Ridill as a comparison. Btw Ruke/Ryko, forgot which, you can feel happy and lucky about getting lucky on a Ridill/D.ring drop, but it doesn't necessarily mean you worked for/"earned" it. Hard to be proud about something that you simply got lucky with.

I mean no offense but that logic is horribly flawed. By the same token, you make money in this game often based on luck. Does that mean you shouldn't be proud of anything you buy with that money? Because you got the money through luck?

I've got over 120m through around 9 KS99s getting a Shinsoku (sold for 60m), another Shinsoku (sold for 15m), Unsho (sold for 45m), and misc other smaller drops. That was all luck, for sure... But getting the 99 KS for each of those 9 attempts wasn't, nor was winning those BCs. But does that mean all that money was earned through luck? And that I shouldn't be proud over what I bought with it?

Or, how about getting a V Claw from Tunnick during inflation (sold for 22m)? One of the hardest drops to get, so luck was definitely there. Or how about the people that HQ an amazingly rare synth? Luck is there, so I guess they didn't earn the money? Or maybe going 11/54 on Big Bomb, keeping in mind a lot of people went as far as 0/11 and 0/20, luck was definitely there with us on the Big Bomb record. Does that mean I shouldn't be proud of it?

So what in this game doesn't have a luck factor? Why should we be proud of anything we earn, when it comes down to it... It's all luck. Almost every penny earned in this game comes down to something dropping or not dropping, and something HQing or not HQing. There's no set amount of effort you put forth where you have to get a drop, or have to get a HQ; it's all based on luck.