Discussion on relic weilders with selling gear to fund relic

[divisortheory]

I'm trying to sell my wyvern helm +1 to help fund my relic bow, does that make me dumb and gimp? That 1 STR isn't going to revolutionize my ranger nearly as much as the relic bow will

If your wyvern helm +1 granted you 5% more damage over the NQ, yes you'd be a moron for selling it.

But it doesn't, just like Apollo's Staff doesn't make your ballads give an extra 5% MP. I know of something that does though.

[Nystul]

No. The point was that I "lol" at seeing people sell Item A in order to get Item B at X time in the future, whereas the benefit from keeping Item A and spending an extra week to pay for Item B has a much higher opportunity payoff, since X time is generally at least a year.

In other words, you "lol" at people tryign to accomplish goals in the game. I "lol" at that.

No, he lols at people cutting off their feet to buy shoes. I think he's all for accomplishing goals, he thinks it's just silly to undermine your abilities in order to hasten the process when the time spent is marginal but the performance hit is not.

Thats an excellent analogy for this situation.

But what if the item in question wasn't as drastic as you portray it to be? Like, say you cut off your feet, but instead of shoes, you get motherfucking WINGS. Then you can fly around instead of walking!

LOL yea well, you know there is a bit of opinion in this matter- it is not entirely objective. I think selling of a wyvern's +1 doesn't change your abilities much. I'd say a BLM selling a genie for an NQ wouldn't really change performance as much relative to perhaps the benefit of an upgraded aegis for their other job (LOL you thought I was going to say staff didn't you? Silly bastards). But there are certain items that are vastly more useful on a day to day basis and selling those off is just silly to me, especially since in many cases that I see the price of them isn't THAT high (an HQ staff isn't that expensive, where as especially when they were jacked up, a genie weskit was VERY valuable). Then sometimes things are very relative. A pld only character selling a kraken to upgrade aegis isn't that crazy. A drk selling a kraken to upgrade scythe is batshit fucking insane.

I would say that you'd have a terribly hard time, though, arguing against this statement: Selling items that are central to your performance in order to marginally hasten the acquisition of a relic piece is not sensible.

[Kazen]

Because out of all the money that is needed, 800k is a huge amount and he couldnt spend an extra day to farm. :wink:

[Xavier]

You're still not addressing the big picture.

I would say that you'd have a terribly hard time, though, arguing against this statement: Selling items that are central to your performance in order to marginally hasten the acquisition of a relic piece is not sensible.

Nystul understands what I'm talking about. And even though most times that idea gets lost in the dream of getting what you want, the principle doesn't change. Did I say I don't understand why people do it? No. But I do find it funny, and I don't understand how there have been 7 pages side-stepping my point.

[Alastaire]

People generally accept that the majority of relic don't give you wings.

http://www.zefrank.com/theshow/galle...1/red+bull.jpg

[divisortheory]

I would say that you'd have a terribly hard time, though, arguing against this statement: Selling items that are central to your performance in order to marginally hasten the acquisition of a relic piece is not sensible.

Explain how the difference in Apollo's Staff vs. Light Staff makes Apollo Staff an item that is central to the performance of a well-functioning BRD.

[Ryko]

In the case of the bard I think the light staff loss for a grand total of what, a day, was pragmatic as an apollo's is easy shit to get back and in that case it was the person putting out their own dime. My relic was a combination of sponsoring, buying my own currency, and a great deal of generosity on the people in my shell's part (pretty much an even three way split between those in terms of currency total) so I'm not trying to bag on the person. That said, melees sitting around in their super fantastic weapon with STR rings (or any melee using STR rings to melee) grinds my fucking gears to no end, and I don't really care what justification they have for it so I guess you can pick your poison.

[Nagamaki]

I don't particularly agree with people who make really huge sacrifices in their upgrade process, because with some patience and ingenuity, its perfectly possible to self-fund without gimping your gear in significant ways. It makes it difficult to try to get HQs of expensive top tier items (Cursed -1 and the like) but those types of upgrades are in no way job breaking.

It is perfectly possible to self-fund with very minimal gear sacrifices, and characterizing the entire self-funding process as one that requires gimping yourself badly is quite simply wrong.

As for levelling SJs, that doesn't really have anything to do with relics. Any serious player should level all useful SJs for all of their mains. Hell, just for the general purpose of gaining a better understanding of different jobs, any player should level all jobs to 37. A player who is serious enough about the game to upgrade a relic should take the time to level all their subs, but the same applies to people who will never upgrade relics but also refuse to upgrade useful subs for their mains. Not levelling useful subs is ridiculous regardless of a relic being in the picture.

[Xavier]

I would say that you'd have a terribly hard time, though, arguing against this statement: Selling items that are central to your performance in order to marginally hasten the acquisition of a relic piece is not sensible.

Explain how the difference in Apollo's Staff vs. Light Staff makes Apollo Staff an item that is central to the performance of a well-functioning BRD.

I wasn't aware this one bard was the only person to have ever upgraded a relic. I also don't recall citing this one bard as the particular person I was referencing in my original comment, that was something done by people who immediately feel the need to defend shit.

You're still trying to sidestep the actual point by bottlenecking it down to one person who serves as a good example to your view.

[Nystul]

I would say that you'd have a terribly hard time, though, arguing against this statement: Selling items that are central to your performance in order to marginally hasten the acquisition of a relic piece is not sensible.

Explain how the difference in Apollo's Staff vs. Light Staff makes Apollo Staff an item that is central to the performance of a well-functioning BRD.

Thats not my argument to make. Thats Xavier's. I am agreeing with the principle of what he is saying in a general sense. All I know about bard is that they make my MP go up, so I'm certianly not going to say that I'm qualified to make any arguments about their gear choices. If you'll note, I made no references to you specifically in any way.

[divisortheory]

I would say that you'd have a terribly hard time, though, arguing against this statement: Selling items that are central to your performance in order to marginally hasten the acquisition of a relic piece is not sensible.

Explain how the difference in Apollo's Staff vs. Light Staff makes Apollo Staff an item that is central to the performance of a well-functioning BRD.

I wasn't aware this one bard was the only person to have ever upgraded a relic. I also don't recall citing this one bard as the particular person I was referencing in my original comment, that was something done by people who immediately feel the need to defend shit.

Ok, then explain how having +10 Attack and 1STR on your back slot instead of +15 Attack and 2STR on your back slot is central to the performance of a well functioning melee? Or STR+4 during their WS instead of STR+5. Or even Brutal Earring, pretty sure people were upgrading relics long before Brutal Earring was ever introduced into the game.

The fact remains that this started because you saw the BRD with NQ light staff. Therefore, it must be the case that you feel that an Apollo's Staff is central the operation of a functional BRD, otherwise it wouldn't have taken you to the more general case in the first place. Surely you can see the usefulness in picking specific examples to justify your position on a more general and wide-ranging topic.

[RKenshin]

I would say that you'd have a terribly hard time, though, arguing against this statement: Selling items that are central to your performance in order to marginally hasten the acquisition of a relic piece is not sensible.

Explain how the difference in Apollo's Staff vs. Light Staff makes Apollo Staff an item that is central to the performance of a well-functioning BRD.

I don't know, the answer to this question seems kind of obvious? As a BRD, do you not want the least amount of sleep resists possible? lol

An item that provides a supposed 5% decrease in resists plays a pretty large factor in that overall, considering I can't think of any other single piece of equipment that has been tested to decrease resists by 5%.

Could argue all day about the real importance of it, but honestly I don't think I'm alone when I consider a BRD's ability to sleep mobs to be of rather high importance. The item in question is rather cheap for the significant benefit it provides, so I don't think it's too far fetched to expect any BRD that is serious about their job to have one.

EDIT: In looking at your last post I have this to add:

There are very few items that are really completely central to any job, since every job has situational rolls to some degree. So saying something isn't worth it just because it's not useful in absolutely every possible aspect of a job (making it central to their performance) is a pretty weak argument overall IMO, because you could argue that for just about any item in the game.

Keeping that in mind, in the situation where a BRD has to be a reliable sleep... Apollo's staff is without a doubt a central part of their performance in that aspect, providing the biggest improvement of a slot that I know of.

[Ryko]

I would say that you'd have a terribly hard time, though, arguing against this statement: Selling items that are central to your performance in order to marginally hasten the acquisition of a relic piece is not sensible.

Explain how the difference in Apollo's Staff vs. Light Staff makes Apollo Staff an item that is central to the performance of a well-functioning BRD.

I wasn't aware this one bard was the only person to have ever upgraded a relic. I also don't recall citing this one bard as the particular person I was referencing in my original comment, that was something done by people who immediately feel the need to defend shit.

Ok, then explain how having +10 Attack and 1STR on your back slot instead of +15 Attack and 2STR on your back slot is central to the performance of a well functioning melee? Or STR+4 during their WS instead of STR+5. Or even Brutal Earring, pretty sure people were upgrading relics long before Brutal Earring was ever introduced into the game.

The fact remains that this started because you saw the BRD with NQ light staff. Therefore, it must be the case that you feel that an Apollo's Staff is central the operation of a functional BRD, otherwise it wouldn't have taken you to the more general case in the first place. Surely you can see the usefulness in picking specific examples to justify your position on a more general and wide-ranging topic.

Hard argument to make as to what is or isn't acceptable for a melee to not have when they're sitting on a relic weapon. Brutal is pretty much unacceptable to not have as long as they have access to sea, as a (actually less but still) 5% bonus in TP gain and melee damage is pretty much one of the best bonuses you can get out of a single slot. You'd scoff at a ninja with a kikoku without a suppanomimi and that doesn't grant you the bonus to TP gain or WS damage, just melee damage in a set amount of time. 1 STR here, 1 STR there, meh, not having an HQ amemet is just dumb as shit, especially in today's economy. I really couldn't care less on riding someone about forager's or cerb +1's, as the INV+1 assuming you use any sort of ranged attacker is entirely more pragmatic. Not having Accuracy rings is a whole other story and any melee who thinks about selling one should probably hang themself.

[Xavier]

The fact remains that this started because you saw the BRD with NQ light staff. Therefore, it must be the case that you feel that an Apollo's Staff is central the operation of a functional BRD, otherwise it wouldn't have taken you to the more general case in the first place. Surely you can see the usefulness in picking specific examples to justify your position on a more general and wide-ranging topic.

You're making an assumption not supported by anything I said until after the bard was mentioned by someone else attacking my view in order to make that claim.

Assumptions are dangerous. In a 70 page thread to assume that a comment was sparked by any one particular person is a stretch, when that person was never mentioned in the comment.

I don't know, the answer to this question seems kind of obvious? As a BRD, do you not want the least amount of sleep resists possible? lol

But theres your answer anyway.

[Nystul]

I would say that you'd have a terribly hard time, though, arguing against this statement: Selling items that are central to your performance in order to marginally hasten the acquisition of a relic piece is not sensible.

Explain how the difference in Apollo's Staff vs. Light Staff makes Apollo Staff an item that is central to the performance of a well-functioning BRD.

I wasn't aware this one bard was the only person to have ever upgraded a relic. I also don't recall citing this one bard as the particular person I was referencing in my original comment, that was something done by people who immediately feel the need to defend shit.

Ok, then explain how having +10 Attack and 1STR on your back slot instead of +15 Attack and 2STR on your back slot is central to the performance of a well functioning melee? Or STR+4 during their WS instead of STR+5. Or even Brutal Earring, pretty sure people were upgrading relics long before Brutal Earring was ever introduced into the game.

The fact remains that this started because you saw the BRD with NQ light staff. Therefore, it must be the case that you feel that an Apollo's Staff is central the operation of a functional BRD, otherwise it wouldn't have taken you to the more general case in the first place. Surely you can see the usefulness in picking specific examples to justify your position on a more general and wide-ranging topic.

You know if you are going to make critisisms of his arguemntative techniques, you should be sure that you are on solid ground yourself. Taking conditional statements and strtching them to an extreme example is not only silly (and the hallmark of someone that can't address the point itself in it's stated context) but absolutely infuriating for those around you. This is the approach that extremists use all the time-

"I'm against the war in Iraq"
"so you hate our troops?"
"No, I support them, I'm just against the war"
"So you're against war"
"I'm against this war"
"so you don't think we should have been involved in WW2? Look here buddy, if we weren't willing to fight wars we'd all be speaking German with British accents"
"oh good lord"

Address the point as it is given. Do not extend it to it's applicable extreme in order to discredit it.

[Sho]

Serious business.

[Aodh]

Relic is the biggest thing someone in FFXI can get, and anyone who accomplishes it should feel proud.

Reading through the comments, this stands out. How proud can you be to have something which was handed to you? It's an achievement if you earn it, otherwise it's just another item. You mentioned the time spent being a 'cost', but that's not alone. Everyone that goes each run is putting in the same time, but they're not getting a relic.

[Ryko]

Relic is the biggest thing someone in FFXI can get, and anyone who accomplishes it should feel proud.

Reading through the comments, this stands out. How proud can you be to have something which was handed to you? It's an achievement if you earn it, otherwise it's just another item. You mentioned the time spent being a 'cost', but that's not alone. Everyone that goes each run is putting in the same time, but they're not getting a relic.

You're kidding, right? If circumstances landed a ridill in your lap when you really never expected one you wouldn't be the least bit 'proud' to have it? He never mentioned a sense of self accomplishment, just a vague generic term that would apply even if the fucking tooth fairy left a relic under your pillow.

[Xavier]

Relic is the biggest thing someone in FFXI can get, and anyone who accomplishes it should feel proud.

Reading through the comments, this stands out. How proud can you be to have something which was handed to you? It's an achievement if you earn it, otherwise it's just another item. You mentioned the time spent being a 'cost', but that's not alone. Everyone that goes each run is putting in the same time, but they're not getting a relic.

You must not have read the entire post, otherwise you wouldn't be asking this question. I'll refresh your memory for you:

Relic is the biggest thing someone in FFXI can get, and anyone who accomplishes it should feel proud. But its still hilarious to look at people who have accomplished the biggest thing in the game at the cost of everything else. Am I saying I don't understand -why- they have shitty gear? No. But its still a funny.

And if you wanna get technical, people that buy currency are trading money for other peoples work, and all that takes is a credit card. Having an LS sponsor an upgrade is basically a vote of confidence by a group of players, so in that sense its kinda cool to know that at least a majority wanted a person to have something. I don't recall saying I felt any sense of accomplishment in my own relic though, so I don't know why you think I'm comparing people in this thread to me.

[Rocl]

in before dictionary.com