New Jobs' Merit 2 Abilities Discussion

[BRP]

Compare all of this to the incredibly effective PUP Group 2's, hell, even some of the older ones, and you can understand why BLUs are fervently disappointed.

Gee, I'm sure PUP would love to switch with BLU. Best PvP job, can actually solo really well, generally accepted, ect ect for good Group II merits? Sure! PUP's merits are so good because those are abilities PUPs really needed to get before 75, but SE felt like making them unaccessible until 75.

Anyway, BLU merits don't really suck on paper. Much like many, many Group II merits. However, SE thinks they are holding some kind of balance by not making the cap 5/10... when there's only really Feint that looks broken under this. The others go from "Shit" to "Alright, I can use this". All 20 minute timers would be 10 minutes maxed, all 15 minute timers would be 5 minutes maxed...

Enchainment would be 50 TP bonus maxed
Assimilation would be 5 points maxed
Convergence would +25 MAB and +25 Magic Accuracy maxed
Diffusion would be 10 minutes maxed

Snake Eye would be 5 Minutes maxed
Fold would be 5 Minutes maxed
Winning Streak would be 100 Seconds+ maxed
Loaded Deck would be -50% chance of Failure if maxed

Role Reversal would be 2 Minutes maxed
Vetriloquy would be 1 Minute maxed
Fine-Tuning would be +25 Accuracy, +25 Ranged Accuracy, +25 Evasion, +25 Magic Defense
Optimization would be +25% Attack, +25% Ranged Attack, +25% Defense, +25 MAB

[Ashira]

BLU cat2 merits are indeed worthless. To put it in perspective, one of the ones BLUs were looking forward to were the merits to allow more points, maximum of only 3 points sucks when a single spell can take 4 points to be set, it's just dumb.

Btw BRP, if you thought BLU's bitched, read the moron board, I mean, the summoner board. They bitch about no JSE (when they have a lvl50 set), bitch about how they aren't invited to anything (did they all mass forget wyrm era smn?), bitch about no new gear, bitch about salvage, bitch about anything at all really. That board is one giant oozing vagina, there is no tampon big enough to clog their leak.

One major reason I stopped reading SMN boards. The bits of good info I got leveling that job were not worth it in having to deal with everyone crying about how.. frankly.. SMN isn't overpowered. Nothing is ever good enough. Sigh. I <3 my SMN, but I know where it has its place and where it has faults, and I think that's rather the biggest part of any job to accept and understand. I have no problems being accepted as a healer in a merit pt, but yes, that's usually with my friends but it's also because they know I won't try and do something stupid.

The unfortunate thing is that too many SMNs have insisted on doing stupid things that no one trusts them anymore. I'll never forget watching a self proclaimed super amazing SMN having some add issues in Uleguerand while doing a quest/mission or something, and rather than Cure his party or use buffing Pacts, he slowly let them die as he continued to use Fenrir in an offensive mode on the one mob. It's shit like that that has ruined SMN, not lack of JSE or BP timers, etc.

And yes, I'd love an Austere Robe as well, but it's not like it replace Yinyang. Everything has its situation. /sigh. I just feel like crying now, because stupidity annoys me that much. ._.

[Nirokun!]

Penance Robe >_>

im a dirty fanboy smn

there i said it

[Ashira]

Yes, yes, sorry, Penance... my bad. Wasn't really paying that much attention.

Not like it matters anyway, once I have AF2 body (if I ever do - Dynamis Beaucedine laughs at our shell when we go) I'd be wearing that for Physical BPs anyway, so then YYR/Penance would just be for perpetuation cost anyway.

[LD]

Gee, I'm sure PUP would love to switch with BLU. Best PvP job, can actually solo really well, generally accepted, ect ect for good Group II merits? Sure! PUP's merits are so good because those are abilities PUPs really needed to get before 75, but SE felt like making them unaccessible until 75.

So I shouldn't be complaining because PUP got something they actually wanted and needed?
The point is their merits are good and significantly better than a lot of other merits in the way they directly aid the job and always have a use.
Whether the job itself is good is irrelevant, since in a perfect world, all of the group 2 merits should help each job equally.
COR is arguably the best job to come out of TOA and they got a decent assortment of abilities they can actually make regular use of.
Are you telling me they should have gotten less because PUP is sooo needy?
Merits are meant to be a supplement, not a crutch.

BLU might be a powerful job, but its versatility doesn’t give it the broad range of applications that BRD, RDM, and COR have.
All I ever hear of a BLU’s ability is their DD prowess.
They can solo effectively, but as PUP & BST have shown, that’s not so great of a selling point.
Even if the merits were as we wanted and Diffusion had a lower timer, BLU’s ability to be a dedicated buffer would be tied to a recast, and that’s if one chose to put merits into it.
Honestly, I was planning on Convergence and Assimilation, before the latter was shown to be so worthless.
Even if it capped at 5, 25 merits for 5 extra set points (or 22, if the cost stops at 5) is an incrediably inefficient use of exp, especially when you take spell cost into consideration.
One more good spell, big deal, I’m still 2-5 slots away from the 20 set spell cap.

Why should a good job be held back from its potential, and a sub-par one be given a deluge of enhancements that people probably wont care about anyway?
At least if BLU got what they wanted, it would actually change the game for the better.
Even if they raised the cap to 5 and put diffusion on Feint’s upgrade scheme (incidentally, I don’t believe 2 minute Feint would be broken when it only lasts about a minute), most BLU spells don’t even last 2 minutes and the rest could be stacked.
It would be like a SMN, only more limited, because a SMN can actually do AOE buffs more than once a minute and they can last more than 3 minutes.

PUP made off like a bandit, 2-6 minute Diffusion wouldn’t be any more broken than SMNs already are, and even at 5 upgrades, Assimilation is a waste of time.

[Kyreth]

Knowing SE, I never really expected Diffusion to get anywhere under 5 minute recast, but 20 minutes with a cap of 15 is just an insult when any worthwhile buff will have long since died before you can use the ability again.
So instead of opening BLU up to an even greater supporting role, its nothing more than an impractical gimmick.
Cocoon-ga may be nice, but if you can only get it once every 20 minutes, what's the point of even having a BLU in the tank PT?
Really, giving it the same merit upgrades as Fient would have been fine.
Most of self cast spells only last about a minute (Cocoon) and the ones that last more (Refueling) aren't that much better than what another job could do (Garuda.).

I think I understand why BLU merits are currently the way they are.

Someone in S-E expects folks to break Diffusion, or come up with some hideously unholy combo with just a few extra set points. If they do, once-every-20 isn't too bad. If they don't, S-E will adjust the recast time downwards.

[stamos]

They should increase the duration of the spells with each merit if they want to have it at a 20 min recast.

[LD]

I think I understand why BLU merits are currently the way they are.

Someone in S-E expects folks to break Diffusion, or come up with some hideously unholy combo with just a few extra set points. If they do, once-every-20 isn't too bad. If they don't, S-E will adjust the recast time downwards.

This is the first thing I thought when I saw Assimilation and Diffusion, putting them out there to test the waters before making them more effective (However, this could be said for a lot of the Group 2 merits.)
You can tell from many of the BLU spells that SE has been deathly afraid of BLU's potential power since its inception.
Magical BLU spells being inaccurate until the update after TOA was added, Frightful Roar being nerfed, 1k needles costing 350MP despite Thundaga 3 being (slightly) less expensive and causing more damage on single and especially multiple targets, magical spells in general having only moderate power and/or costing more than what would be considered reasonable for their level range.
I admit, it's not without good reason, but as things stand, the job doesn't seem more broken than any other.
It can do many things effectively, but not well enough to completely replace another job, and when it pushes to do one thing, it can no longer do another as well.

[Terrance]

Convergence and Enchainment are fine the way they are.
Convergence is exactly as it was advertised: A Blue Magic ES. 10 minutes is a reasonable recast for that.

You're an idiot, it is not ES. It is not even close to ES. It is about as far from ES as you can get and still have anything to do with magic.

Enchainment may be somewhat lackluster now, 20 per upgrade would have been very nice, but it serves its purpose of allowing you to hit harder with less TP (and if they raise the cap to 5, it will be even better).

Because a tiny amount of TP is an even noticeable addition to damage, let alone comparable to feint, charge etc.

3 assimilation, 1 of each of the others because while 1 pt per merit for assimilation sucks ass, it's still better than putting a 2nd point in any of the other crap.

[BRP]

1000 Needles has higher base damage... Thundaga III's base damage is 697.

[Suiram]

1000 Needles has higher base damage... Thundaga III's base damage is 697.

Comparing base damage is a bit disingenuous when 90% of the time 1000 needle's base damage = final damage since it isn't affected by MAB and can't be magic bursted. Whereas a naked BLM with no merits and equal INT to the target's Thundaga3 is actually 920, with 5/5 lightning merits it's 989, with 6 more INT and 5/5 merits you're already over 1000 (which brings up the further point that it isn't exactly accurate to say Thundaga 3's base damage is 697 because that ignores the caster's-vs.-target's-INT component). Also what he said about multiple targets is true too, since -ga3 on two targets is 80% to 1000 needles's 50%, three targets 75% vs. 33% etc.

Anyhow I like convergence, I'm definitely going 2/3 and maybe 3/3 on it.

[Mertron]

Doing 3 assimilation and 3 enchainment. They aren't great but personally I prefer them to the other two.

Diffusion cooldown is too much and convergence acc/effect seems hardly effective/worthwhile. Another blu in my ls put a merit in diffusion so if blms want aoe-mori, they can bug him. >o

[LD]

Convergence and Enchainment are fine the way they are.
Convergence is exactly as it was advertised: A Blue Magic ES. 10 minutes is a reasonable recast for that.

You're an idiot, it is not ES. It is not even close to ES. It is about as far from ES as you can get and still have anything to do with magic.

Increases accuracy...and power...while making AOE spells more powerful single target...
You got me, it's actually better.

1000 Needles has higher base damage... Thundaga III's base damage is 697.

It's called REEEEEEEESAAAAAAAAAAAACH! :D

1k Needles can be MB'd, but only for accuracy (and only with BA, of course), like breath attacks.
Convergence is the only thing that raises its power over the 1k cap. Reports say about 100 damage per upgrade.
1k Needles is notoriously inaccurate on VTs & ITs and that can be done with physical spells with much lower recasts and gross MP costs.
A decently equipped BLM can blow 1k damage out of the water on the same mob and multiple mobs will just create more damage on the whole.

[fantasticdan]

1k Needles can be MB'd, but only for accuracy (and only with BA, of course), like breath attacks.
Convergence is the only thing that raises its power over the 1k cap. Reports say about 100 damage per upgrade.

What reports? Convergence increases the base damage of 1k needles by 5% per upgrade (50 dmg), just as the description states.

[Villian]

I really like 3/3 assimilation. Can set in a few extra spells for some more +stats and more spells in ballista :D. Gotta hate it when you are 44/45 and can't do anything else.

[LD]

1k Needles can be MB'd, but only for accuracy (and only with BA, of course), like breath attacks.
Convergence is the only thing that raises its power over the 1k cap. Reports say about 100 damage per upgrade.

What reports? Convergence increases the base damage of 1k needles by 5% per upgrade (50 dmg), just as the description states.

I coulda swore I heard 100, but I qualified that sentence, so I admit to no certainty.

[Kylen]

Snake Eye for COR is pretty awesome, 2/3 in that now and I use it almost every time its timer is up. Being able to bump unlucky #'s or X's to XI's really increases the average potency of our rolls quite a bit. And if we save Snake Eye for Evoker's Roll, mages almost never get stuck with 1 mp/tick anymore, which was one of the more annoying weaknesses of our job IMO. Definitely going 3/3 on this.

Fold is definitely worth unlocking, but I'm not convinced if I'm going to need to merit its timer down at all. It's great to have when I double-bust, but so far I haven't found myself needing it more than once every 15 minutes.

Winning Streak is decent, who doesn't want longer rolls? I wouldn't say it's as crucial as having Snake Eye and Fold unlocked, but it's certainly not a bad place to dump any extra merits that we have left over.

Loaded Deck sounds crappy, but the one COR I know who has put 1 merit into it said that they've noticed a pretty significant difference in how often Random Deal resets stuff like Quick Draw and Barrage. I'm still waiting to hear more reports on this, but it may be worth putting 1 merit into if it's really as powerful as this one COR is claiming it is.

[Suiram]

1k Needles can be MB'd, but only for accuracy (and only with BA, of course), like breath attacks.
Convergence is the only thing that raises its power over the 1k cap. Reports say about 100 damage per upgrade.

What reports? Convergence increases the base damage of 1k needles by 5% per upgrade (50 dmg), just as the description states.

I coulda swore I heard 100, but I qualified that sentence, so I admit to no certainty.

I remarked on this last page but it's a 5% bonus to one of two terms in the base damage for magical BLU spells, which, for spells like 1000 needles and breaths where it is the only term present, makes it an overall 5% bonus. Less so for other spells. Also a minor note, but it's not the only thing that can make it go above 1000, since although it's not affected damage-wise by staff, MAB, magic bursting, day/weather, it is affected by the generic Magic Damage taken +/-% term, so for example it does 1250 to pudding, 875 to weapons; I believe there was a thread here where someone did 1200 to Prudence which I'd speculate was something like 60% damage taken but doubled during open-mouth form (that would coincide with what I've noticed anecdotally fighting it on BLM), presumably it does 2000 damage to regular open-mouthed Hpemdes as well.

[LD]

Interesting stuff. Makes sense, though.

[Lily]

I agree with Kylen's thoughts. I've capped Snake Eye as I'm loving how it can give a bit more control and dare I say, reliability to the job (I know we're supposed to be gamblers, but still). It can get frustrating just sometimes when you get a horrible streak of bad luck, and you want to buff your party but it's all going wrong. :\

I'm putting one into Fold for now to see how useful it might be. I suspect I may put the rest in Winning Streak. I was originally going to go 3/3 Snake Eye and 3/3 Winning Streak. But maybe it'll be 3/3 Snake Eye, 1/3 Fold, and 2/3 Winning Streak.

I don't think I'll put any in Loaded Deck, even if one alone can make a nice difference. The 20 min timer is disgusting. ;x Maybe if I had capped Random Deal recast timer merits in tier1, I might consider it, but even then with those merits in there it's still over 16mins re-cast or so. Plus with that mindset you're forcing yourself down a certain route for tier1 meriting options. It's a bit underwhelming. I'm not one for timer merits anyway. Those will always be the last things I'll put points in, generally.

Anyway, I think they're pretty decent. I wasn't expecting anything else except some form of JA/card related stuff, so this didn't disappoint too much. I just sometimes get frustrated with how it appears SE seem to give us flawed abilities, but then give us tier1/2 meritable things that sort of improve said flaw and bring it up to a 0 lvl (imagining it to be on, like a -10 to +10 usefuless scale). Whereas, in my mind I'd have thought they'd give new abilities which have a usefulness starting around 0 and new tier merits to boost that higher. ;x You can tell I'm not a big fan of Random Deal to start with probably. ;x