Salvage - Bhaflau Remnants - thread2

[Kaylia]

^
You're crazy or have terrible mnk. I got all the gears a war would want (minus hq dusk and speed belt), and never would I say war come close to mnk for that fight

[Wolfknight]

^
You're crazy or have terrible mnk. I got all the gears a war would want (minus hq dusk and speed belt), and never would I say war come close to mnk for that fight

really I think it's the accuracy bonus 2-handers gain over H2H allowing for march/minuet and meat to work better, not to mention war has aggressor; personally whenever I've done bosses on mnk my acc seems a lot worse than on sam even when focus is up(using very similar gear sets and merits: 8 GKT vs 4 H2H).

[Kaylia]

The mnk in our party usually outdamage my ridill, and my ridill outdamage my great axe. I've trouble to imagine 2h weapons doing better damage than a mnk.

Tanking wise, war is horrible compared to mnk in this situation. Two mnk, with chi blast merited, are going to get hit half as often by WS (help healing and utsu recast). It's even more important if the mega isn't nerfed since the aoe are particularly nasty when you tank on the side. Counter is also great since it will save some dmg (300-400dmg a pop) and help recasting shadow. I'm not saying war isnt viable in bhaflau, but it can't be better than mnk.

It's nice to have a war voke after homing missile tho if you can have a 3rd melee tho. And they can replace a 2nd mnk fine. But it's not a good idea to go with 2 war imo.

SSR works pretty good with wars (x1 or x2) since they get hate back easily after charms. Zhayolm is squishy, but you need to be careful with tp given...war is still fine tho. I would avoid war tank in arrapago for the same reason I said in bhaf, but it can be done.

[Wizerd]

Kaylia, you're greatly overexaggorating how good MNK is on LBC(and other bosses) compared to other jobs.

Tanking wise, war is horrible compared to mnk in this situation. Two mnk, with chi blast merited, are going to get hit half as often by WS (help healing and utsu recast).

Not half as often. Penance is only a 25% reduction in the mob's TP gain, so 25% less often for 2 out of 3 minutes. There's an extra minute where Penance isn't on, also.

WAR/NIN gets 10% Subtle Blow from support job (10% less mob TP gain), MNK/NIN gets 20% from main job (20% less mob TP gain). During Penance, this works out to be about 32.5% less TP gain for the mob (assuming Subtle Blow is calculated separately from Penance). Keeping in mind that monsters, including chariots, won't use TP right at 100% until they are under 25% health, WAR/NIN x2 can tank LBC just as good as MNK/NIN x2. You may lose 40-50 seconds in the long run, but if you're a good WAR, you'll be fine.

That said, I still prefer MNK. Any TP reduction is good TP reduction. We regularly tank bosses with WAR x2 or WAR MNK now, though, and it works great.

It's even more important if the mega isn't nerfed since the aoe are particularly nasty when you tank on the side.

...? <_< I've heard nothing about it being more damage from the side. Where is this cited? I'll have to try it next time and compare...

[Darkhelmet]

Terrestrialrage,

I'm assuming that Mirax is your THF, but who is the rest of your group and what jobs do they go as?

[Slott]

It's even more important if the mega isn't nerfed since the aoe are particularly nasty when you tank on the side.

...? <_< I've heard nothing about it being more damage from the side. Where is this cited? I'll have to try it next time and compare...

It loses diffusal ray and homing missiles when you tank on the side(Common knowledge obviously). Diffusal ray and homing missile(Especially nerfed) mixed in with inertia stream and (para move name, cant think of it) gives each a lower (let's say 25% each) chance of occuring, rather than 50% inertia, 50% para.

And as we know, weakened homing missile doesn't kill your shadows, and diffusal ray is pretty gimp as well (either eats all shadows or just does a bit of damage)

[Wizerd]

It's even more important if the mega isn't nerfed since the aoe are particularly nasty when you tank on the side.

...? <_< I've heard nothing about it being more damage from the side. Where is this cited? I'll have to try it next time and compare...

It loses diffusal ray and homing missiles when you tank on the side(Common knowledge obviously). Diffusal ray and homing missile(Especially nerfed) mixed in with inertia stream and (para move name, cant think of it) gives each a lower (let's say 25% each) chance of occuring, rather than 50% inertia, 50% para.

And as we know, weakened homing missile doesn't kill your shadows, and diffusal ray is pretty gimp as well (either eats all shadows or just does a bit of damage)

I guess that makes sense.

Also, Diffusion Ray wipes shadows, even if you have 4 fresh shadows up. <_<

And has anyone ever actually seen Diffusion Ray Dispel anything? I swear I've been hit with it more than a few times even with 0 shadows up and I've never noticed a buff going away, ever. Is that just old info that was never corrected?

[ringthree]

It's even more important if the mega isn't nerfed since the aoe are particularly nasty when you tank on the side.

...? <_< I've heard nothing about it being more damage from the side. Where is this cited? I'll have to try it next time and compare...

It loses diffusal ray and homing missiles when you tank on the side(Common knowledge obviously). Diffusal ray and homing missile(Especially nerfed) mixed in with inertia stream and (para move name, cant think of it) gives each a lower (let's say 25% each) chance of occuring, rather than 50% inertia, 50% para.

And as we know, weakened homing missile doesn't kill your shadows, and diffusal ray is pretty gimp as well (either eats all shadows or just does a bit of damage)

I guess that makes sense.

Also, Diffusion Ray wipes shadows, even if you have 4 fresh shadows up. <_<

And has anyone ever actually seen Diffusion Ray Dispel anything? I swear I've been hit with it more than a few times even with 0 shadows up and I've never noticed a buff going away, ever. Is that just old info that was never corrected?

I asked the same question last week. I do not believe it does. I believe it is a wyrm-breath style TP move, which wipes shadows and thats it.

[Drex]

I've sam/war tanked chariots quite a few times, and never saw anything get dispelled (even third eye). It may just be me not noticing something dumb getting dispelled, idk.

[OctavoGilgamesh]

I asked the same question last week. I do not believe it does. I believe it is a wyrm-breath style TP move, which wipes shadows and thats it.

I've never seen a message like other dispel moves like roar...so and so's haste is gone. Or 8 effects gone or whatever. I'm not a mnk though, so dunno for sure.

[Wolfknight]

The mnk in our party usually outdamage my ridill, and my ridill outdamage my great axe. I've trouble to imagine 2h weapons doing better damage than a mnk.

Tanking wise, war is horrible compared to mnk in this situation. Two mnk, with chi blast merited, are going to get hit half as often by WS (help healing and utsu recast). It's even more important if the mega isn't nerfed since the aoe are particularly nasty when you tank on the side. Counter is also great since it will save some dmg (300-400dmg a pop) and help recasting shadow. I'm not saying war isnt viable in bhaflau, but it can't be better than mnk.

It's nice to have a war voke after homing missile tho if you can have a 3rd melee tho. And they can replace a 2nd mnk fine. But it's not a good idea to go with 2 war imo.

SSR works pretty good with wars (x1 or x2) since they get hate back easily after charms. Zhayolm is squishy, but you need to be careful with tp given...war is still fine tho. I would avoid war tank in arrapago for the same reason I said in bhaf, but it can be done.

I said we do sam + war because it allows for minuet/march(and being able to voke off each other as needed is nice) and both of use to meat while mnk tank generally requires sushi or madrigal; so I'm wondering what songs/food were used when H2H beat GA on boss; we've killed faster using sam + war than mnk x2 when using those songs/food; though I admit I have no idea how 2x war/nin would perform never tried it.

[eva00r]

1 Noob question, Does straight tank at the front is better than tank on the side ? (If the chariot is nerfed)

[ringthree]

I've sam/war tanked chariots quite a few times, and never saw anything get dispelled (even third eye). It may just be me not noticing something dumb getting dispelled, idk.

No, it's probably some person thought they were smart and added info to the wiki before anything was ever confirmed and people just followed that info because it was on the wiki.

[ringthree]

1 Noob question, Does straight tank at the front is better than tank on the side ? (If the chariot is nerfed)

I prefer to angle myself so that if boss is facing the other person/people Diffusion Ray misses me or only does a small amount of damage.

[eva00r]

1 Noob question, Does straight tank at the front is better than tank on the side ? (If the chariot is nerfed)

I prefer to angle myself so that if boss is facing the other person/people Diffusion Ray misses me or only does a small amount of damage.

What do you mean by 'angle yourself' ? 1st melee positions at the front and 2nd melee move a bit to the side ? Or 1st melee positions at the front and 2nd melee stand at the same spot but turn his face in different angle ?

[Wolfknight]

if nerfed I just stand infront since missile does crap and overwhelm bonus is

[Meat]

1 Noob question, Does straight tank at the front is better than tank on the side ? (If the chariot is nerfed)

I prefer to angle myself so that if boss is facing the other person/people Diffusion Ray misses me or only does a small amount of damage.

What do you mean by 'angle yourself' ? 1st melee positions at the front and 2nd melee move a bit to the side ? Or 1st melee positions at the front and 2nd melee stand at the same spot but turn his face in different angle ?

I've never fought a nerved lbc, but on Ac my parter and i spit roast it, perhaps something like that

[Kaylia]

Not half as often. Penance is only a 25% reduction in the mob's TP gain, so 25% less often for 2 out of 3 minutes. There's an extra minute where Penance isn't on, also.

WAR/NIN gets 10% Subtle Blow from support job (10% less mob TP gain), MNK/NIN gets 20% from main job (20% less mob TP gain). During Penance, this works out to be about 32.5% less TP gain for the mob (assuming Subtle Blow is calculated separately from Penance). Keeping in mind that monsters, including chariots, won't use TP right at 100% until they are under 25% health, WAR/NIN x2 can tank LBC just as good as MNK/NIN x2. You may lose 40-50 seconds in the long run, but if you're a good WAR, you'll be fine.

That said, I still prefer MNK. Any TP reduction is good TP reduction. We regularly tank bosses with WAR x2 or WAR MNK now, though, and it works great.

You take more damage because both melee will be hit by shadow wiping AoE that give annoying status. When you tank from front, you add one WS that can hit 1 of the 2 melee and add nothing.

If 2 war and 2 mnk get 100 tp (tp gains is about the same on both jobs), wars are going to give something like 240tp and mnk 180tp (war at 7 tp per hit, mnk at at 5.5). Twice as often was an exageration, but it's still a lot more when you're waiting for utsu recast, or when mage are trying to keep paralyze/bind off you.

Then you have the whole counter thing that can be a life saver when your shadow happens to be down and you have hate, and prevent a strong hit (often two if it was in the middle of a bad utsu recast).

And has anyone ever actually seen Diffusion Ray Dispel anything? I swear I've been hit with it more than a few times even with 0 shadows up and I've never noticed a buff going away, ever. Is that just old info that was never corrected?

It dispels stuff? Never noticed. The only dispel it has is when I click off protect by mistake recasting utsu:ichi during the animtion.

I said we do sam + war because it allows for minuet/march(and being able to voke off each other as needed is nice) and both of use to meat while mnk tank generally requires sushi or madrigal; so I'm wondering what songs/food were used when H2H beat GA on boss; we've killed faster using sam + war than mnk x2 when using those songs/food; though I admit I have no idea how 2x war/nin would perform never tried it.

Always used minuet/march on any jobs. Always eating meatkabob on war I'm cheap. I would rather hit harder then hit more often, even when my acc isn't capped.

Never tried sam/war tank, so I can't comment there. But I'm not sure how well it would perform against not nerfed LBC.

[Maxxthepenguin]

If 2 war and 2 mnk get 100 tp (tp gains is about the same on both jobs), wars are going to give something like 240tp and mnk 180tp (war at 7 tp per hit, mnk at at 5.5). Twice as often was an exageration, but it's still a lot more when you're waiting for utsu recast, or when mage are trying to keep paralyze/bind off you.

One thing you didn't account for is how longer delay weapons are inherently more tp efficient, which is why the lowest delay jobs got subtle blow years ago. A 504 delay gaxe is 13.74 tp per hit, which gives 16.74 tp per hit to the enemy. A MNK w/ destroyers gets 4.52 tp/hit, which gives 7.52 tp/hit. The Gaxe takes 8 hits to reach 100+ TP, which gives 133.92 TP total to the enemy. The H2h+destroyers takes 23 hits to reach 100 tp, which gives 172.96 tp to the enemy. MNK's 20% subtle blow reduces the 172.96 tp to 138.368 tp.

Conclusion: Gaxe gives LESS tp to get to 100 tp than MNK, and that's without /nin's subtle blow.

Just a nice tidbit to keep in mind.

[Kaylia]

One thing you didn't account for is how longer delay weapons are inherently more tp efficient, which is why the lowest delay jobs got subtle blow years ago. A 504 delay gaxe is 13.74 tp per hit, which gives 16.74 tp per hit to the enemy. A MNK w/ destroyers gets 4.52 tp/hit, which gives 7.52 tp/hit. The Gaxe takes 8 hits to reach 100+ TP, which gives 133.92 TP total to the enemy. The H2h+destroyers takes 23 hits to reach 100 tp, which gives 172.96 tp to the enemy. MNK's 20% subtle blow reduces the 172.96 tp to 138.368 tp.

Conclusion: Gaxe gives LESS tp to get to 100 tp than MNK, and that's without /nin's subtle blow.

Just a nice tidbit to keep in mind.

Mnk is 4.5? I used 5.5, but I realize I forgot to remove the store tp bonus.

Anyway, you're doing something wrong here. What we are looking for is not the amount of tp given to gain 100tp, but the rate at which you give tp. I compared mnk to war/nin (with axe) because both job tp gain is similar, and you can approximate tp given that way.

There is no doubt g.axe war gives less tp than ridill. That's what I use against chariot when mp get low. However, it's still superior to tp given by mnk, and damage take a noticeable drop. Again, I'm not saying 2 war can't tank. I've done it many time, but it's still far from the optimal setup if you want to hit all NM and speed kill mega safely.