Salvage - Bhaflau Remnants - thread2

[Maxxthepenguin]

Mnk is 4.5? I used 5.5, but I realize I forgot to remove the store tp bonus.

I calculated the TP gain using the TP gain formulas. Unless I mistyped something, I'm probably right.

Anyway, you're doing something wrong here. What we are looking for is not the amount of tp given to gain 100tp, but the rate at which you give tp. I compared mnk to war/nin (with axe) because both job tp gain is similar, and you can approximate tp given that way.

WAR gives significantly more tp than MNK when using dual axes, not to mention ridill. The rate you get tp? Well that depends on haste gear, etc, but I'd estimate that MNK would give slightly less TP with black belt (subtle blow+5), slightly more with brown belt.

There is no doubt g.axe war gives less tp than ridill. That's what I use against chariot when mp get low. However, it's still superior to tp given by mnk, and damage take a noticeable drop. Again, I'm not saying 2 war can't tank. I've done it many time, but it's still far from the optimal setup if you want to hit all NM and speed kill mega safely.

I'm confused what you're saying here. I wasn't arguing whether MNK or WAR is better, I think the overall package makes MNK better, however I'm not a fan of using falsehoods to support an argument.

Yeah, I'm kinda weird like that.

[Kaylia]

[edit] reposted the whole thing under cause there was too many mistake [/edit]


Correct me if I'm wrong or missed something obvious, but that's the difference between 2 g.axe war and 2 mnk.

Damage wise, mnk win over g.axe. They should take less dmg then war with counter and guard and they have chakra to heal themselves. War on the other hand have provoke, which can be useful, but it doesnt place them anywhere near mnk for that fight.

I'm confused what you're saying here. I wasn't arguing whether MNK or WAR is better, I think the overall package makes MNK better, however I'm not a fan of using falsehoods to support an argument.

Yeah, I'm kinda weird like that.

I didnt say anything false. People were saying War is better than Mnk tank in Salvage...that's is false. War and Sam are my only melee jobs, and I'm defending them for years...I dont see why you're accusing me of having a bias toward mnk or w/e. I was also one of the people who were saying WAR is a perfectly viable job in Salvage last year, and it is. But better or nearly the same? No.


[edit]
fixed kick attack and added ridill

[Maxxthepenguin]

Correct me if I'm wrong or missed something obvious, but that's the difference between 2 g.axe war and 2 mnk.

Kick Attacks, I calculated TP gain wrong (increase my MNK tp gain to yours). Chi Blast Penance isn't always up.

Damage wise, mnk win over g.axe. They should take less dmg then war with counter and guard and they have chakra to heal themselves. War on the other hand have provoke, which can be useful, but it doesnt place them anywhere near mnk for that fight.

Don't disagree with this, this is the whole package I was talking about. The only thing I'm unsure about is Gaxe WAR doing worse damage than MNK but I'm assuming you've tested a Gaxe WAR with Gaxe build and merits, so I'll trust you on this one.

[quote:1asmy3ea]I'm confused what you're saying here. I wasn't arguing whether MNK or WAR is better, I think the overall package makes MNK better, however I'm not a fan of using falsehoods to support an argument.

Yeah, I'm kinda weird like that.

I didnt say anything false. People were saying War is better than Mnk tank in Salvage...that's is false. War and Sam are my only melee jobs, and I'm defending them for years...I dont see why you're accusing me of having a bias toward mnk or w/e. I was also one of the people who were saying WAR is a perfectly viable job in Salvage last year, and it is. But better or nearly the same? No.[/quote:1asmy3ea]

As I said, I wasn't sure what you were trying to say w/ the last paragraph. You said something about MNK giving less TP because you weren't counting Gaxe. Not counting gaxe is a major oversight.

[Kaylia]

Kick Attacks, I calculated TP gain wrong (increase my MNK tp gain to yours). Chi Blast Penance isn't always up.

True, forgot kick. What's the proc rate, and does it use basic tp rule?

Penance is 25% 2/3 of the times, I used 16.6% in the maths above. It's correct to do this since mnk wont break the 50% limit to subtle blow (not sure it apply to penance anyway)

Don't disagree with this, this is the whole package I was talking about. The only thing I'm unsure about is Gaxe WAR doing worse damage than MNK but I'm assuming you've tested a Gaxe WAR with Gaxe build and merits, so I'll trust you on this one.

I don't have g.axe merits, but 15acc/15atk wouldn't make my Great axe outdamage ridill, and mnk generally outdamage me on charriot. That's why I'm saying mnk > war DW > war GA.

[Maxxthepenguin]

Kick Attacks, I calculated TP gain wrong (increase my MNK tp gain to yours). Chi Blast Penance isn't always up.

True, forgot kick. What's the proc rate, and does it use basic tp rule?

Penance is 25% 2/3 of the times, I used 16.6% in the maths above. It's correct to do this since mnk wont break the 50% limit to subtle blow (not sure it apply to penance anyway)

I think Kick attacks are 10%+1% per merit and gain TP as normal. I'm no MNK, but that's that.

Penance is odd to count, it's inconsistent and is a much larger bonus than just that MNK's TP gain. It also isn't merited by every MNK out there... though it really should be.

[quote:21ajvujn]Don't disagree with this, this is the whole package I was talking about. The only thing I'm unsure about is Gaxe WAR doing worse damage than MNK but I'm assuming you've tested a Gaxe WAR with Gaxe build and merits, so I'll trust you on this one.

I don't have g.axe merits, but 15acc/15atk wouldn't make my Great axe outdamage ridill, and mnk generally outdamage me on charriot. That's why I'm saying mnk > war DW > war GA.[/quote:21ajvujn]

We also haven't accounted for the many other possible tanks... but that gets kind of insane when you do.

I am really, really surprised that ridill WAR/NIN gets outdamaged by MNK/NIN on these things >_>

[Judai]

Big difference between me, the Monk I assume Kaylia is talking about, and the other Monks. I don't eat Sushi and I don't need Madrigal, March/Min only. idk about the Math but there is a huge difference in dual Monk vs even just MNK+WAR when I'm tanking. It's very noticable.

[Kaylia]

One thing I didnt consider is the accuracy. Great axe is close from cap, and do less dmg, while h2h and dual wield will put you at 80-85% and give superior damage. It pushes 2h weapon a little behind for tp given imo.

Axe/ridill tp gain on war/nin
Delay: 276+2x236 (ridill average is slightly lower than 2) = 204.8delay average
Tp per hit: 5.60
Tp to enemy: 8.6tp
Tp after subtle blow (15% from job): 7.3tp
Delay after haste (41%): 130+111.4 = 4.0sec for 3 hits


Tp given: 5.4tp/sec

Did the maths quick since I was about to enter salvage. Didnt count double attack on first weapon, can add 3% to that, but since ridill average is under 2, it's probably even out..


If I go all out on War/nin, I can most likely outdamage mnk/nin, but I play safely and try to keep shadow. Dont use berserk when I have hate to prevent double crit --> dead.

[RKenshin]

I'm not sure what people are doing differently, but GA WAR has been superior to Rid WAR/NIN on the chariots for us (as far as damage goes) for quite some time now. And typically it can do more damage than MNK as well.

MNK is definitely the "safer" of the two for most situations, and geared and played right I'd say it easily is the best and safest tank for chariots (old news though). But, I wouldn't call them the highest damage source. Most balanced and safest with very high damage output, yes.

SAM/WAR tanking also works fine for most chariots, but requires less lazyness and a little more optimization. Rabbit Pies are amazing for this now.

But, I'm usually either SAM or MNK or another job more based on what I'm in the mood for than anything (or to mess with Lhexh!). Either case me and another WAR or two are typically the tanks, in a group of about 6-7 people.

[Kaylia]

What gears do you use on war/nin with great axe? Beside the merit, I can't see what I would change to make such a large difference that would put great axe ahead.

[RKenshin]

Setup is usually something like this:

Main: Perdu
Sub: Strap
Ammo: Bomblet
Head: Walahra
Neck: Fortitude
Ear1: Brutal
Ear2: Assault
Body: Adaman
Hands: Dusk/Dusk+1
Ring1: Rajas or Sniper+1
Ring2: Sniper+1
Back: Foragers
Legs: Byakko's
Feet: Unicorn

Nothing really that changes between that and /NIN other than the obvious. But the big thing is it's a about a ~25.3 acc difference between the two choices, without assuming any combat merits other than sword capped in favor of the WAR/NIN build, and assuming 68 DEX. 68 DEX itself gives using GA a 17 acc boost, then 2 acc on Assault Earring, 6.3 from GA being an A+ weapon, and 5 from Perdu cancels out with 5 from Maneater. With GA merits it's a 39.7 acc difference.

The extra free acc makes a pretty big difference in WS and melee totals on the chariots. RR does better than Rampage without a doubt as well, and typically GA will get to 100 TP faster while doing more damage now. So it really comes more from the 2h adjustment results than the gear.

[Kaylia]

Ring2 should be ToA rings imo, in salvage at least. For the rest, that's basically what I use minus fortitude torque (chivalrous) and ammo (bomb core), but I cant imagine those doing a big difference.

I will toss a few merits in great axe and parse again, but my damage always went down by a lot when I compare it to the mnk if I swap from axe/ridill to GA. Going to try both combo next 2 run and post the parse.

[ringthree]

1 Noob question, Does straight tank at the front is better than tank on the side ? (If the chariot is nerfed)

I prefer to angle myself so that if boss is facing the other person/people Diffusion Ray misses me or only does a small amount of damage.

What do you mean by 'angle yourself' ? 1st melee positions at the front and 2nd melee move a bit to the side ? Or 1st melee positions at the front and 2nd melee stand at the same spot but turn his face in different angle ?

LBC turns more than most of the Chariots, but this applies to all the bosses.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...R_position.jpg

The only move where positioning matters on a nerfed LBC or the other bosses is Diffusion Ray.

[RKenshin]

Ring2 should be ToA rings imo, in salvage at least. For the rest, that's basically what I use minus fortitude torque (chivalrous) and ammo (bomb core), but I cant imagine those doing a big difference.

I will toss a few merits in great axe and parse again, but my damage always went down by a lot when I compare it to the mnk if I swap from axe/ridill to GA. Going to try both combo next 2 run and post the parse.

Actually I'm pretty sure the other two WARs use the ToA ring in ring2, I just don't have one yet so I didn't think of it. My mistake!

Do you have full axe merits? That would make the difference between the two options a good deal smaller too.

[Kaylia]

Do you have full axe merits? That would make the difference between the two options a good deal smaller too.

Only have one in great axe. I was saving last few merits I had for g.ktn, but might as well go for axe if it's anywhere as good as you guys are saying. I will be happy if it can get anywhere close to 80-90% of what I do with axe/rid.

Another thing to keep in mind is the jobs you bring are also with you the whole salvage. Damage on the way up is different than on mega. If your war only have great axe, chance is they will kill much slower. If you want to hit every NM and make the most out of a run, you will need a perfectly balanced group.


Since I fucked badly yesterday doing the maths, I recalculated everything concerning tp given.



Great axe tp gain on war/nin
Delay: 504
Delay after strap: 487.91
Delay with haste (20%+11%+15%)=263.47 = 4.39sec
Tp per hit: 13.24
Tp to enemy: 16.24
Tp after 15% subtle blow: 13.80
Tp after 20% subtle blow: 13.00
Tp after 15% subtle blow and penance: 12.65
Tp after 20% subtle blow and penance: 11.91

Adding 15% double attack
Tp given: 3.62tp/sec without rajas
Tp given: 3.41tp/sec with rajas
Tp given: 3.31tp/sec without rajas and a mnk
Tp given: 3.12tp/sec with rajas and a mnk

Axe/ridill tp gain on war/nin
Delay: 276+236
Delay with dualwield = 204.8x2 = 409.6
Delay with haste (20%+11%+15%)=221.18 = 3.69s
Tp per hit: 5.60
Tp to enemy: 8.60
Tp after 15% subtle blow: 7.31
Tp after 20% subtle blow: 6.88
Tp after 15% subtle blow and penance: 6.7
Tp after 20% subtle blow and penance: 6.3

With ridill average of 1.8 hits per round and 10% double attack, the war average 2.9 hits per round.
Tp given: 5.74tp/sec without rajas
Tp given: 5.41tp/sec with rajas
Tp given: 5.26tp/sec without rajas and a mnk
Tp given: 4.95tp/sec with rajas and a mnk

H2H on mnk/nin
Delay:348/2= 174
Delay with haste(24%+11%+15%): 174 = 2.9sec
Tp per hit: 4.95 tp
Tp to enemy: 7.95tp
Tp after 20% subtle blow: 6.36
Tp after 30% subtle blow: 5.57
Tp after 20% subtle blow and penance: 5.83
Tp after 30% subtle blow and penance: 5.10
Tp after 20% subtle blow and 2xpenance: 5.30
Tp after 30% subtle blow and 2xpenance: 4.64

With 5% double attack, 15% kick, a mnk will average 2.25 attack per rounds (+0.1 double, +0.15 kick) in 2.9sec
Tp given: 4.93 tp/sec without blackbelt and rajas
Tp given: 4.32 tp/sec with black belt and rajas
Tp given: 4.52 tp/sec without blackbelt and rajas + 1 penance
Tp given: 3.95 tp/sec with black belt and rajas +1 penance
Tp given: 4.11 tp/sec without blackbelt and rajas +2 penance
Tp given: 3.60 tp/sec with black belt and rajas +2 penance




War use 20% haste. Mnk use 24%. Both under the effect of 1 haste song and haste spell. Only thing I'm not sure about is how to calculate penance. Does it apply after everything, or it add up to the subtle blow, and cap at 50% with the rest.

[aurik]

its a flat -25% after everything else.

[Kaylia]

its a flat -25% after everything else.

That's what I did this time. Thanks.

[RKenshin]

Do you have full axe merits? That would make the difference between the two options a good deal smaller too.

Another thing to keep in mind is the jobs you bring are also with you the whole salvage. Damage on the way up is different than on mega. If your war only have great axe, chance is they will kill much slower. If you want to hit every NM and make the most out of a run, you will need a perfectly balanced group.

Our WARs seem to have been killing faster using GA up through the levels as well lol (but, the main one has a Bravura which of course makes his choice obvious). Only time Ridill is used is usually right when weapon is first unlocked on early floors (aside from the relic WAR), and JA is still unavailable. After JA though it's usually switched to GA.

But, it's not like WAR can't switch between either option at any time anyway.

[Kaylia]

If G.axe outdamages dual wield on mega and weak salvage mobs, I supose they outdamage them in xp party as well? The only time I seriously compared ridill to great axe was against Sath in Zhayolm (no e.body, not sure what merit, but decent gears and nyzul body), and it wasn't close. Other g.axe war I went with were either gimped, or had low priority on cell, so it cant be compared.

I've hard time to imagine g.axe outdamaging dual wield on really weak mobs. I can't speak for bravura, but outside retalation, I'm not sure what would give them an edge on the floors before mega. I know people can switch, but if great axe is indeed superior, it means any walt-mart war should be able to do better than a dragon aery war.

[RKenshin]

In merits, I would say the best equipped/merited GA WAR will do about 10-15% more damage than the best equipped/merited Ridill WAR with /SAM and not using Hasso.

I've been meriting quite a lot since the 2h buff and feel pretty confident about that judgment. Properly geared a GA WAR will be getting TP much faster for a good deal more total WS, with a higher WS average, ability to eat meat while maintaining high to nearly capped acc, and still moderately high DoT. The same MNK/WAR I'd be close to matched with on Rid WAR/NIN, I bury by a good amount on WAR/SAM.

If you add in Hasso, it's no contest and even DoT will be just about on par if not surpassed... But outside of the best PTs you're not going to be able to do that.

Even with /NIN though, GA is still a lot more powerful than most seem to give it credit for. Too many lose WARs still that suck the job up!

[siknoz]

Pretty much what Rkenshin said is correct, I've done many merit pt's with my war (adaberk/ridill, etc) against WARs with Gaxe using /sam, and they usually outparse me by about 5% more damage from the war who doesn't have ebody, and about 15% more damage from the war who has armada body. So ya, gaxe isn't all too bad. The problem lies when that WAR has to tank because imo that war will take a ton more damage than the /nin.

It also helps to not build so much tp on a mob with ridill =\.