Salvage - Bhaflau Remnants - thread2

[BerenTebogo]

If G.axe outdamages dual wield on mega and weak salvage mobs, I supose they outdamage them in xp party as well? The only time I seriously compared ridill to great axe was against Sath in Zhayolm (no e.body, not sure what merit, but decent gears and nyzul body), and it wasn't close. Other g.axe war I went with were either gimped, or had low priority on cell, so it cant be compared.

I've hard time to imagine g.axe outdamaging dual wield on really weak mobs. I can't speak for bravura, but outside retalation, I'm not sure what would give them an edge on the floors before mega. I know people can switch, but if great axe is indeed superior, it means any walt-mart war should be able to do better than a dragon aery war.

Was the day I hit WAR75, or at least the week, had 0 weapon or JSE merits, just my crit and 5/5 STR.

I have ridill now also, and 4 sword merits (all the room I can spare) but I still prefer NIN for overall versatility, if we're stacked and just need damage I'd go WAR/SAM and be a hasso sponge.

Edit: I still don't own a Perdu Gaxe, was either Byakko or Fort, I can't really be sure, I know I xp'd to 75 with Fort. Axe.

[RKenshin]

Some math fun to show for what I'm saying:

Ridill + Maneater
- 512 delay
- 309 delay after /NIN
- 172 delay after 58% haste (23% gear, 15% spell, 20% song)
- 1255 attack rounds in an hour
- Assuming 15% total DA, as ideal for Rid WAR, 30/50/20 balance of Ridill (according to others+Sea's tests), which after 15% DA becomes ~26/58/16
- 1443 axe + 2384 ridill
- Assuming 90% acc, 85 average/hit, 950 WS avg
- 3444 total hits
- 292740 melee damage
- Assuming avg of 18 hits to TP after WS
- 180 total WS, 171000 damage
- 463740 total damage

Perdu + Pole Strap
- 504 delay
- 161 delay after 58% haste and Hasso
- 1341 attack rounds in an hour
- Assuming 22% total DA, as ideal for GA WAR
- 1636 swings
- Assuming 95% acc, 185 average/hit, 1050 WS avg
- 1554 total hits
- 287490 melee damage
- Assuming avg of 5 hits to TP after WS
- 310 total WS, 325500 damage
- 612990 total damage

Obviously not numbers representative of most normal situations, but with both jobs at about almost full power GA does come out on top by a considerable amount.

Feel free to double check the math or try your own run through, I could've made a mistake as GA seems a little over-exaggerated, but meh /lazy. I can't find anything wrong.

I didn't include the math for Zanshin or crit-rate either, and I also don't feel a Rid WAR/NIN would average 85 damage/hit with 90% acc/23% haste in like any situation without at least Madrigal (which is the least ideal song to have to use). So I think my assumptions are mostly in favor of the WAR/NIN build as well.


Also, a friend's parse from not too long ago on fully-nerfed LBC (I'm not in it though):
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7551/ffxi4097mr1.jpg

SAM is brown, MNK is orange, Bravura WAR is red. The SAM and MNK both used 2h twice, the WAR used it once. All had SV for the entire fight. Over the course of the entire run and not including the above boss fight, the WAR did 230% of the MNK's damage.

Of course this is with Bravura, but the difference between wielding that and Perdu isn't enough to account for the sole reason those number potentials are that high. The MNK and SAM were both above average, but not completely decked. Both have most of the merits and gear for a well-equipped job (black belt, destroyers, byakkos, shura, 6-hit, hagun, etc) and are a few pieces short of "decked."

In the end, removing Bravura and adding a completely decked MNK, GA WAR still should come out a good amount ahead as far as damage goes (but of course it'd be closer). But there are a lot of screwy factors in comparing specifics here depending on who gets what cells first and such, so take the results as you will lol.

This isn't at all to discredit MNK in salvage in any way though, MNK offers more than just hard damage for a salvage run and is why it's one of the best jobs to have on most teams. I just think that many people don't see how good GA WAR can be still, which is understandable as so few do it right now anyway with it being the more 'walmart' oriented option. But that's my extremely long-winded 2 cents!

[Kaylia]

Do you have any Perdu Voulge parsing on salvage mega (doesnt matter which one, just want to know the song that were played, and time it took to kill if possible)? I feel unsecure using Bravura for any comparison, as I have no idea what it can do. I assume the mnk ate sushi as well? Damage per punch seem kinda low. I would like to compare to my number next run.

"Assuming 22% total DA, as ideal for GA WAR"

10trait + 5 brutal +5 merit? It's probably obvious but what part am I missing? Berserk+Aggressor is better with ridill, but its


Last thing. Is Hasso+songsx2 viable full time? If you take away hasso and remove one song, the number you get are completly different. Two haste song might be the best for a decked war/sam, but it's not always the case on /nin.
1033 attack round instead of 1255 for axe
867 attack round instead of 1341 for great axe.
The difference get even bigger if you use the more common "20 haste" setup most war have.

Damage per hit seem kinda high for GA, but I will trust you on it. If I understimated great axe, it's probably there. For weaker salvage mobs, it's easy to keep 95% accuracy with ridill, and your base damage will be higher generally. Is great axe going to be proportionally stronger? I don't know, but difference between both probably is probably not that big


It's doable on collibris because...well they are collibris, but could you tank a chariot without mp issue with 2 war/sam on hasso, 2 haste songs and 6-7 people? I'm not sure. Having 2 war hit at that speed is going to give you a nice return on tp given that will probably hurt you badly.

[Wizerd]

"Assuming 22% total DA, as ideal for GA WAR"

10trait + 5 brutal +5 merit? It's probably obvious but what part am I missing?

Strap.

[Darkmoon]

7 people can usually kill a gear-nerfed LBC in 12-14 minutes

7 people SHOULD be able to kill any non-LAC boss in 7-9 minutes. 12-14 would be with mediocre melees.

[quote:3vsikgax]Last Weak LBC we took out in a little over 7 Mins.

We used the following setup.

WAR/nin
WAR/nin
WAR/nin
BRD (relic)
WHM
RDM

BLM
BLM
PLD/nin (we use this for a holder on a bad Homing missle if its not weakened)
THF
RNG

11 people and he should be down in 5, 6 tops[/quote:3vsikgax]

We saved most our 2hrs for second run (We do 2 runs back to back on sundays), since we had pleanty of time on the clock. Otherwise yea it would go down a lot faster.

[Valyana]

could you tank a chariot without mp issue with 2 war/sam on hasso

No, you can't use Hasso if you're tanking. One anticipate per minute = death.

But how does GA compare to dual wield for WAR/NIN? I've tended to have WAR tanks come /NIN, dual wield on lower floors, and switch to GA to reduce TP spam on archaics.

[Boen]

Try MNK/WAR

[RKenshin]

Do you have any Perdu Voulge parsing on salvage mega (doesnt matter which one, just want to know the song that were played, and time it took to kill if possible)? I feel unsecure using Bravura for any comparison, as I have no idea what it can do. I assume the mnk ate sushi as well? Damage per punch seem kinda low. I would like to compare to my number next run.

I almost certainly do have more, but they're randomly placed in a folder that has over 4000 screen shots in it right now so it's likely I won't find a useful one. I'll give it a shot anyway and post if I find anything useful here, or just do it after the run tomorrow.

But, Perdu Voulge vs Bravura is simply:
10 attack vs 15 acc, 3 base damage

Then just add on a 3% chance for 2.5 times the damage with Bravura, which is the only major difference, and in the end it isn't big enough to warrant the sole cause for those numbers. Especially with accuracy being capped for the majority of a salvage run, making Bravura's extra acc mostly useless.

A MNK using standard ideal gear has 40.5 less accuracy than an ideally geared WAR there (55.5 with relic, and not including the superiority of Aggressor), so yes using sushi on bosses is usually necessary short of having the best gear you can and/or Madrigal. But as I said that's the least ideal song to use, SV minuet/march were on.

Last thing. Is Hasso+songsx2 viable full time? If you take away hasso and remove one song, the number you get are completly different. Two haste song might be the best for a decked war/sam, but it's not always the case on /nin.
1033 attack round instead of 1255 for axe
867 attack round instead of 1341 for great axe.
The difference get even bigger if you use the more common "20 haste" setup most war have.

It isn't, I was showing it strictly for comparison. On the same fuel though I was also assuming Minuetx2 were on, as an average of 85/hit wouldn't be normal outside of that. But, those aren't ideal songs to have on either.

The damage for both drops rather drastically when you apply the same effect to each though, but there are still a lot of other specifics effecting both situations that are left out. But in most circumstances, if there's any reason you're doing Marchx2 it's because you have Utsesumi tanks, not because you have a /SAM. Stacked with good DDs it's also debatable as to whether it's better than Minuet+March.

Damage per hit seem kinda high for GA, but I will trust you on it. If I understimated great axe, it's probably there. For weaker salvage mobs, it's easy to keep 95% accuracy with ridill, and your base damage will be higher generally. Is great axe going to be proportionally stronger? I don't know, but difference between both probably is probably not that big

The damage/hit is slightly higher than usual since the boss was killed with SV songs, but it's not too much different than from expected. My Amano has 11 less base damage and I've averaged as high as ~210 damage/hit in exp on Mamools, as you can see here:
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9594/66341738hj4.jpg

The Apoc DRK is the other major DD, and without using Souleater once his damage/hit is up at 236, with no Berserk available and only 2 base damage higher than Bravura. On chariots it's obviously a different story as far as damage/hit goes, but I'm more comparing weaker mobs here.

GA's strength vs single wielding Ridill is mostly the WS damage after JA cell on early floors, as you're not always going to get SJ right away depending on the run. Which is why as I said earlier, after initially getting weapon Ridill is usually used, but after JA it's switched to GA.

It's doable on collibris because...well they are collibris, but could you tank a chariot without mp issue with 2 war/sam on hasso, 2 haste songs and 6-7 people? I'm not sure. Having 2 war hit at that speed is going to give you a nice return on tp given that will probably hurt you badly.

Not what I was exemplifying by that, you're taking my response to one part of your post and implying it to a different topic.

I was talking about, and demonstrating through math, the comparison of GA vs Ridill in an exp/merit situation. And in an ideal PT for DDs of the caliber for this comparison, you can get away with the situation I was discussing. Applying this to tanking chariots is kind of silly.

And the WAR in that parse, and the WAR's on my run I'm comparing to always come /NIN anyway. /SAM isn't even factor for comparison on chariots for the situations I was describing in my runs... I'm the only one that would even (and can lol) go /SAM.

[Haris]

Out of the topic, i have quick question,anyone here ever gotten drops from 3 different ramparts in the same run thx for reading, sorry if its been posted somewhere else.

[Kaylia]

Out of the topic, i have quick question,anyone here ever gotten drops from 3 different ramparts in the same run thx for reading, sorry if its been posted somewhere else.

I'm almost certain I read something similar, but it might have been 2 drop and 3 differents nm. I dont see why nm wouldnt drop if it pop tho.

I was talking about, and demonstrating through math, the comparison of GA vs Ridill in an exp/merit situation. And in an ideal PT for DDs of the caliber for this comparison, you can get away with the situation I was discussing. Applying this to tanking chariots is kind of silly.

I understand that, and that's why I recalculated the number for a more conventional situation without hasso. The maths you used are correct, I'm just trying reapply them to different situation to see if great axe would still be ahead.


I was wondering one thing yesterday. How long is the delay after a WS? Is it the same for great axe and dual wield?

[RKenshin]

I don't think there is much of a real delay?

Timing things right I'll usually get a swing in almost during the WS animation on a job like SAM, where I'll often attempt to time it like that to self-skillchain. I've basically seen myself get TP as the WS animation is going/finishes.

Even on MNK while using Hundred Fists, after a WS you start punching again just about right away. At worst there may be like a ~.5 or so second delay... In which case it's probably the same for all jobs, although that's not something I've paid much direct attention to.

But, I think that the more noticeable ~1.8 second delay only happens after JAs/spells.

[Wizerd]

I don't think there is much of a real delay?

Timing things right I'll usually get a swing in almost during the WS animation on a job like SAM, where I'll often attempt to time it like that to self-skillchain. I've basically seen myself get TP as the WS animation is going/finishes.

Even on MNK while using Hundred Fists, after a WS you start punching again just about right away. At worst there may be like a ~.5 or so second delay... In which case it's probably the same for all jobs, although that's not something I've paid much direct attention to.

But, I think that the more noticeable ~1.8 second delay only happens after JAs/spells.

I think the WS delay is the same 2 seconds as the JA delay, but you don't really notice because you're busy watching a pretty weapon skill animation and time flies. <_<

[Ferien]

I don't think there is much of a real delay?

Timing things right I'll usually get a swing in almost during the WS animation on a job like SAM, where I'll often attempt to time it like that to self-skillchain. I've basically seen myself get TP as the WS animation is going/finishes.

Even on MNK while using Hundred Fists, after a WS you start punching again just about right away. At worst there may be like a ~.5 or so second delay... In which case it's probably the same for all jobs, although that's not something I've paid much direct attention to.

But, I think that the more noticeable ~1.8 second delay only happens after JAs/spells.

I think the WS delay is the same 2 seconds as the JA delay, but you don't really notice because you're busy watching a pretty weapon skill animation and time flies. <_<

I've come out of WSes with the TP from another hit, so nope, there's no delay.

[Zidiane]

Some math fun to show for what I'm saying:

Ridill + Maneater
- 512 delay
- 309 delay after /NIN
- 172 delay after 58% haste (23% gear, 15% spell, 20% song)

Perdu + Pole Strap
- 504 delay
- 161 delay after 58% haste and Hasso

Are you sure these delay figures are right?
58% off 309 is 129.78 (309-(308*0.58))
58% off 504 is 211.68 (504-(504*0.58))

Im not sure if im forgetting something but everytime i check the delay i cant get 161 or 172.
Can you shed a little light to how you got these figures?

[Wizerd]

I don't think there is much of a real delay?

Timing things right I'll usually get a swing in almost during the WS animation on a job like SAM, where I'll often attempt to time it like that to self-skillchain. I've basically seen myself get TP as the WS animation is going/finishes.

Even on MNK while using Hundred Fists, after a WS you start punching again just about right away. At worst there may be like a ~.5 or so second delay... In which case it's probably the same for all jobs, although that's not something I've paid much direct attention to.

But, I think that the more noticeable ~1.8 second delay only happens after JAs/spells.

I think the WS delay is the same 2 seconds as the JA delay, but you don't really notice because you're busy watching a pretty weapon skill animation and time flies. <_<

I've come out of WSes with the TP from another hit, so nope, there's no delay.

Every WS animation is longer than 2 seconds, of course you've come out of WSes with TP from another hit. Everyone has.

[OctavoGilgamesh]

I don't think there is much of a real delay?

Timing things right I'll usually get a swing in almost during the WS animation on a job like SAM, where I'll often attempt to time it like that to self-skillchain. I've basically seen myself get TP as the WS animation is going/finishes.

Even on MNK while using Hundred Fists, after a WS you start punching again just about right away. At worst there may be like a ~.5 or so second delay... In which case it's probably the same for all jobs, although that's not something I've paid much direct attention to.

But, I think that the more noticeable ~1.8 second delay only happens after JAs/spells.

I think the WS delay is the same 2 seconds as the JA delay, but you don't really notice because you're busy watching a pretty weapon skill animation and time flies. <_<

I've come out of WSes with the TP from another hit, so nope, there's no delay.

Every WS animation is longer than 2 seconds, of course you've come out of WSes with TP from another hit. Everyone has.

I've had my mnks get hit with homing missle because of this lock/delay during ws.

[Lhexh]

Are you sure these delay figures are right?
58% off 309 is 129.78 (309-(308*0.58))
58% off 504 is 211.68 (504-(504*0.58))

Im not sure if im forgetting something but everytime i check the delay i cant get 161 or 172.
Can you shed a little light to how you got these figures?

Looks like a typo to me. DualWield lowers Delay to 409, not 309 and 409*(1-0.58) = 172. And the Perdu Calc is 504*(1-0.68) = 161 since you have to account for Hasso.

[Zidiane]

Isnt hasso taken off after all the other haste is calcuated tho? Since its a debuff. I'm prob wrong (I've never level'd sam), I just asume since its a Ja it was seperate.
So it'd be 211*(1-0.1) = 190.5 rounded.

Again im prob wrong but, meh, best to ask if your not sure right?

[RKenshin]

Hasso is a form of haste and stacks with it, not before or after it. Delay reduction and dual wield are applied before haste.

And yeah, I typo'd a part of the math. But still used the correct numbers for the final results, I think.

[Ferien]

I don't think there is much of a real delay?

Timing things right I'll usually get a swing in almost during the WS animation on a job like SAM, where I'll often attempt to time it like that to self-skillchain. I've basically seen myself get TP as the WS animation is going/finishes.

Even on MNK while using Hundred Fists, after a WS you start punching again just about right away. At worst there may be like a ~.5 or so second delay... In which case it's probably the same for all jobs, although that's not something I've paid much direct attention to.

But, I think that the more noticeable ~1.8 second delay only happens after JAs/spells.

I think the WS delay is the same 2 seconds as the JA delay, but you don't really notice because you're busy watching a pretty weapon skill animation and time flies. <_<

I've come out of WSes with the TP from another hit, so nope, there's no delay.

Every WS animation is longer than 2 seconds, of course you've come out of WSes with TP from another hit. Everyone has.

I've had my mnks get hit with homing missle because of this lock/delay during ws.

Your TP is reset the moment the WS animation starts, not when it ends. The movement/animation lock happens while you're using the WS. The extra TP is gained during the WS animation. If there's a delay lock it's between the Readies message and the use of the WS, when you're still able to move.