Salvage - Silver Sea Remnants - thread 2

[NynJa]

Because those 3 or 4 meditates you'll get in the 10-14 minute fight are seriously going to impact the fight. Might as well sub nin, get some subtle blow, and drop 150(no bard)-300(bard) dmg every 30 seconds, and get 100% TP in 5 minutes (minimum of 10% TP guaranteed every SA/TA round, with a possible bonus of anywhere between an extra 5% (brutal double) to 20% (trip on both hands) TP)

Wouldnt war sub be better anyway, chance is he wont have magic unlocked by the last floor, and could only use those JA

This is a discussion about TP gain on the mob, and war sub would require you to be TPing on a mob that I'm sure all of us can agree is a BAAAAD idea.

[Ryushii]

THF is extremely valuable during the climb in Arrapago.

THF can staple a lot of hate on to tanks vs the boss.

THF is counterproductive feeding the boss TP.

THF/SAM works.

Because those 3 or 4 meditates you'll get in the 10-14 minute fight are seriously going to impact the fight. Might as well sub nin, get some subtle blow, and drop 150(no bard)-300(bard) dmg every 30 seconds, and get 100% TP in 5 minutes (minimum of 10% TP guaranteed every SA/TA round, with a possible bonus of anywhere between an extra 5% (brutal double) to 20% (trip on both hands) TP)

Yes, because a little bit of subtle blow is definately gonna impact the fight more than being able to WS several more of the TAs.

[Lordwafik]

THF is extremely valuable during the climb in Arrapago.

THF can staple a lot of hate on to tanks vs the boss.

THF is counterproductive feeding the boss TP.

THF/SAM works.

Because those 3 or 4 meditates you'll get in the 10-14 minute fight are seriously going to impact the fight. Might as well sub nin, get some subtle blow, and drop 150(no bard)-300(bard) dmg every 30 seconds, and get 100% TP in 5 minutes (minimum of 10% TP guaranteed every SA/TA round, with a possible bonus of anywhere between an extra 5% (brutal double) to 20% (trip on both hands) TP)

But wouldn't going sam sub give you both store TP and meditate, allowing you not only to free SA/TA, but get TP faster than /nin?

shrug, don't have it levelled and won't till blu is done, but I don't see how /nin is so special on the boss. I prefer to /nin just for the NMs / kiting.

[Xerlic]

Maybe my group is doing something wrong, but I don't understand how people have time to pop NMs and do LAC. Each NM seems like a 20 minute detour what with all the crap you have to clear to get them to pop.

SS seems like a zone that if more geared towards larger groups since you get a lot of cells, especially when you pop NMs.

[Aemora]

For whatever reason people would want to, Gyroscopic Gear, along with Powderkeg, that are the bastards to pop. The rest require Sac > Pull > Kill > NM. Also, you can save a lot of time on the first floor; you don't necessarily have to kill EVERYTHING on 1 side with a small group. Say 6 entered, all you'd need to do is kill a few Fomors at the start for a few extra cells, then run straight to the 8 Fomor room and get your guarenteed cell drops from there, and continue.

On our last SS run, we took 15 people (too many :<), cleared the entire East section of the first floor, skipped the Respawning room, and farmed us some extra cells by killing the Powderkeg Placeholders... Killing Powderkeg, then skipped everything on the third and fourth floor, and kill the Boss.

2 Skadi Visors ftl. :/

[Bronx11]

Helo everyone, I'm one of the THFs in Alcarins group and thought I'd share my info.

I've only done one LAC with Alcarin and from what I've read on wiki and such, i thought it was best for me to Meditate for 60% and take one sleep pot for another 25%, SA once for the remaining 5% then TAWS my tank.

Wait for SATA recast and use...

By the time SATA are back up again, Meditate would be up and i would have roughly some TP from my last SATA in which meditate would complete.

What's you opinion on this?

Also, Alcarin forgot to mention that he has the melee stand in the back and wait for meditate rather than feed TP.

I'm also a Corsair. Wouldn't Monk's Roll be somewhat more benefitual in the long run?

[NynJa]

THF is extremely valuable during the climb in Arrapago.

THF can staple a lot of hate on to tanks vs the boss.

THF is counterproductive feeding the boss TP.

THF/SAM works.

Because those 3 or 4 meditates you'll get in the 10-14 minute fight are seriously going to impact the fight. Might as well sub nin, get some subtle blow, and drop 150(no bard)-300(bard) dmg every 30 seconds, and get 100% TP in 5 minutes (minimum of 10% TP guaranteed every SA/TA round, with a possible bonus of anywhere between an extra 5% (brutal double) to 20% (trip on both hands) TP)

But wouldn't going sam sub give you both store TP and meditate, allowing you not only to free SA/TA, but get TP faster than /nin?

shrug, don't have it levelled and won't till blu is done, but I don't see how /nin is so special on the boss. I prefer to /nin just for the NMs / kiting.

Math isnt my specialty, so bare with me on this.
at /SAM37, you'll have access to StoreTP II, which is StoreTP+15, according to wiki.

Mandau or Blau Dolch will generate approx 4.9 TP per hit. PHarpe will generate 5.7 TP per hit. Thief Knife, even though you could swap it on near the end, will generate around 5.4TP per hit (I picked these numbers off Wiki, TK says 4.57 for some reason, but Stylet at 1 extra delay says 5.4, so I'm going with that). If you are using anything else, you probably melee in Drone Earrings and should go hang yourself, though I will accept X's Knife or Adder Jambiya for their extra effects.

Mandau / BD with Store TP II will generate 5.2% TP, PHArpe 6.5% TP and TK 6.2%. Thats not a huge amount of difference. FFXI drops all decimal places after the first for the record. If you want to add in Store TP from Chiv Chain, Rajas and Brutal (15+5+1+1), you get Mandau/BD 5.9%, PHarpe 6.9%, TK 6.5).

You arent gaining that much from /sam's store TP traits (1-1.2% depending on weapon), whereas /nin is offering a lil subtle blow, more guaranteed hits, and higher WS damage (remember offhand hits count). Not to mention /nin gives you the ability to use a powerful main weapon while using TK for TH offhand.



If you happen to have a ridill or Justice Sword, /nin really helps on SA/TA, because as I said before, these hits will never miss. So even that D rated sword skill will have 100% accuracy, being able to keep your powerful dagger while offhanding a weapon that loves to proc for extra hits (STR+7 on justice isnt to be scoffed at for Mandau users either).

[Bronx11]

Math isnt my specialty, so bare with me on this.
at /SAM37, you'll have access to StoreTP II, which is StoreTP+15, according to wiki.

Mandau or Blau Dolch will generate approx 4.9 TP per hit. PHarpe will generate 5.7 TP per hit. Thief Knife, even though you could swap it on near the end, will generate around 5.4TP per hit (I picked these numbers off Wiki, TK says 4.57 for some reason, but Stylet at 1 extra delay says 5.4, so I'm going with that). If you are using anything else, you probably melee in Drone Earrings and should go hang yourself, though I will accept X's Knife or Adder Jambiya for their extra effects.

Mandau / BD with Store TP II will generate 5.2% TP, PHArpe 6.5% TP and TK 6.2%. Thats not a huge amount of difference. FFXI drops all decimal places after the first for the record. If you want to add in Store TP from Chiv Chain, Rajas and Brutal (15+5+1+1), you get Mandau/BD 5.9%, PHarpe 6.9%, TK 6.5).

You arent gaining that much from /sam's store TP traits (1-1.2% depending on weapon), whereas /nin is offering a lil subtle blow, more guaranteed hits, and higher WS damage (remember offhand hits count). Not to mention /nin gives you the ability to use a powerful main weapon while using TK for TH offhand.



If you happen to have a ridill or Justice Sword, /nin really helps on SA/TA, because as I said before, these hits will never miss. So even that D rated sword skill will have 100% accuracy, being able to keep your powerful dagger while offhanding a weapon that loves to proc for extra hits (STR+7 on justice isnt to be scoffed at for Mandau users either).

That right there was pretty useful. I own a Justice Sword and it really REALLY rocks on TP gain as long as i can land hits. It's no Ridill, but it's awesome none-the-less.

Taken from wiki as a resource, subbing NIN gives 10% subtle Blow. Add in a few equips,
Dragon Cap +3
Dragon Harness +10
Dragon Subligar +5
Dragon Mittens +2
Rajas +5

Totals 35% subtle Blow which caps at 50%,. Put in a COR with a MNK in pt(which is probably tank) Youll have capped Subtle Blow.

Using the FFXI Calculator
BD+JS Delay=345
TP Gain=5.1(20hits for 100%)


Add Subtle Blow...(Base TP + 3) * (1 - SubtleBlow%)
(5.2 + 3) * (1 - 50%)= 4.1 TP per hit for the NM

So, even though THF will be swing away, THFs will gain more TP off the NM than the NM will gain.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using /SAM

BD Delay=178
TP Gain=6.0(17Hits for 100%)

Add Subtle Blow...(Base TP + 3) * (1 - SubtleBlow%)
(6 + 3) * (1 - 50%)= 4.5 TP Per hit for the NM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although /SAM has meditate and StoreTP2, Having an extra arm to Swing 1-4 times is alot faster when /NIN.
Along with that, Stocking up on Subtle Blow will let you WS a little more than the NM itself.

I vote /NIN for TP gain speed and the subtle Blow which will be better than /SAM.
Dont forget that CORs can Samurai Roll for alot more Store TP.

[aurik]

No need for TH on the boss chariot.

[Kaylia]

This is a discussion about TP gain on the mob, and war sub would require you to be TPing on a mob that I'm sure all of us can agree is a BAAAAD idea.

Technically, this is a discusion about doing the most damage while minimizing the tp given. In your situation, the thief wasn't meleeing outside the few Sa/Ta . The bonus from warcry, berserk (and possible DA) are more significant than 15 additional tp given due to the lack of subtle blow.
But again, I thought it was posted in arrapago thread where magic are a luxury. I would rather have everyone /nin everywhere else.



That said, could a thief voke the charriot to get hate when the NM start charming people? The only people in our group with speed gear is our thief. Could save some trouble if he can kite it every time perfectly, instead of having mage do it.

[NynJa]

No need for TH on the boss chariot.

By that token, you don't really need TH for kings either since 1 abju is guaranteed.

Whos to say that certain drops take precedence over others though ?

[Kaylia]

No need for TH on the boss chariot.

By that token, you don't really need TH for kings either since 1 abju is guaranteed.

Whos to say that certain drops take precedence over others though ?

2nd abjuration is not, and that's why you bring thief.

Considering SquareEnix has no idea what "good gear" is, I seriously doubt the "better" item have higher chance to drop with TH, when a slot has 100% chance to drop something.

[aurik]

No need for TH on the boss chariot.

By that token, you don't really need TH for kings either since 1 abju is guaranteed.

Whos to say that certain drops take precedence over others though ?

Bad analogy, TH possibly affects whether a second abj drops.

Assuming TH does affect drop frequency when there are a number of fixed drops, which I personally think is unlikely anyway, you don't know the order so you are just as likely to be screwing yourself by increasing the frequency of items you don't want.

[Aemora]

The only area you need Treasure Hunter in for farming cells is Arrapago, and possibly Bhaflau, but lolBhaflau. Zhayolm's are static'd, SilverSeas is Static'd to randomness (And don't say any bullshit about TH affecting Magic/Weapon/JA/SJ droprate, because that's retarded), and Bhaflau are just incredibly plentiful. Why, just the other night we got 11 Weapons and SJ cells from the first floor, yet found ourselves without 1 MP. Arrapago's droprate SUCKS, and being as all Bosses drop 2 Items regardless now, you don't need them there.

But you do need them for those Sac pulls ... But we tend to use a Blu/Thf, but they are nice to have around and hear them moan around "Weapon and Hands plz" in SilverSeas ... Makes me lol.

(Yeah yeah, Lv35 droprate, I know...)

[Ryushii]

The only area you need Treasure Hunter in for farming cells is Arrapago, and possibly Bhaflau, but lolBhaflau. Zhayolm's are static'd, SilverSeas is Static'd to randomness (And don't say any bullshit about TH affecting Magic/Weapon/JA/SJ droprate, because that's retarded), and Bhaflau are just incredibly plentiful. Why, just the other night we got 11 Weapons and SJ cells from the first floor, yet found ourselves without 1 MP. Arrapago's droprate SUCKS, and being as all Bosses drop 2 Items regardless now, you don't need them there.

But you do need them for those Sac pulls ... But we tend to use a Blu/Thf, but they are nice to have around and hear them moan around "Weapon and Hands plz" in SilverSeas ... Makes me lol.

(Yeah yeah, Lv35 droprate, I know...)

Wrong. Only the first floor of Zhayolm are static'd. 2F equipment cells and 3F stats/hp/mp are affected by TH.

[Alcarin]

I think Bronx was confuse we did LBC, and LBC is consider the hardest of the 4 megaboses if im right. Our first run went pretty messy,

4 hits to LBC and he did the paralyze thing ws was weird. Today July 5 we going for LAC, and i hope it goes well, Just need to think how am i going to deal dmg with melee insetad of blms.

Tanks are nin and mnk, maybe Bronx corsair cand o something about megaboss i dunno, suggestions pls.

I duno how cool can work the Dot kitting shit and deal dmg here and there.

[Aemora]

The only area you need Treasure Hunter in for farming cells is Arrapago, and possibly Bhaflau, but lolBhaflau. Zhayolm's are static'd, SilverSeas is Static'd to randomness (And don't say any bullshit about TH affecting Magic/Weapon/JA/SJ droprate, because that's retarded), and Bhaflau are just incredibly plentiful. Why, just the other night we got 11 Weapons and SJ cells from the first floor, yet found ourselves without 1 MP. Arrapago's droprate SUCKS, and being as all Bosses drop 2 Items regardless now, you don't need them there.

But you do need them for those Sac pulls ... But we tend to use a Blu/Thf, but they are nice to have around and hear them moan around "Weapon and Hands plz" in SilverSeas ... Makes me lol.

(Yeah yeah, Lv35 droprate, I know...)

Wrong. Only the first floor of Zhayolm are static'd. 2F equipment cells and 3F stats/hp/mp are affected by TH.

People try for equipment cells in Zhayolm? /shocked

lol j/k, the Stat cells on the third floor are static'd though (At least from my experience we have never killed a Mamool here that did not drop 3 of the same Stat cell), and 4 of the 8 mobs in the wings on the second floor will drop equipment; the body item is the TH pieces. Unless you are doing NE room with Rings and whatnot ... But that shit belongs in a different thread, not here.

[Alcarin]

i thoutght the nort section mamool drop 0 cells they are only to pop madam i always get 0 drops from third floor just the gear level 15 and the cards. North section thou

[Wizerd]

The only area you need Treasure Hunter in for farming cells is Arrapago, and possibly Bhaflau, but lolBhaflau. Zhayolm's are static'd, SilverSeas is Static'd to randomness (And don't say any bullshit about TH affecting Magic/Weapon/JA/SJ droprate, because that's retarded), and Bhaflau are just incredibly plentiful. Why, just the other night we got 11 Weapons and SJ cells from the first floor, yet found ourselves without 1 MP. Arrapago's droprate SUCKS, and being as all Bosses drop 2 Items regardless now, you don't need them there.

But you do need them for those Sac pulls ... But we tend to use a Blu/Thf, but they are nice to have around and hear them moan around "Weapon and Hands plz" in SilverSeas ... Makes me lol.

(Yeah yeah, Lv35 droprate, I know...)

Wrong. Only the first floor of Zhayolm are static'd. 2F equipment cells and 3F stats/hp/mp are affected by TH.

The first, fourth, sixth and seventh mob in each room (widescan list) drop equipment, the rest don't. Like Aemora said only a few cells may be affected by TH. Stat cells do seem very static on 3F, except perhaps HP/MP. I don't do Zhayolm often but in those first 3 rooms we always seem to get STR, VIT, DEX, AGI, INT, MND, CHR, at least 3 of each. I think some drop twice but I don't remember which.

[Suiram]

The first, fourth, sixth and seventh mob in each room (widescan list) drop equipment, the rest don't. Like Aemora said only a few cells may be affected by TH. Stat cells do seem very static on 3F, except perhaps HP/MP. I don't do Zhayolm often but in those first 3 rooms we always seem to get STR, VIT, DEX, AGI, INT, MND, CHR, at least 3 of each. I think some drop twice but I don't remember which.

While everything you wrote is true, it's misleading as a response to the assertion made that TH affects drops. On the second floor the four mobs in each room are guaranteed to drop 2 cells of feet/hands/head/waist depending on the room, but whether or not they also drop body, or in the NE rings and ranged seems heavily dependent on TH. On the third floor all the mamools along that path except one Zenist in the first room are guaranteed to drop stat cells, but whether they drop HP and/or MP seems dependent on TH. The poroggos 4th floor south--at least pre-patch--which can drop armor and MP cells, also seems dependent on TH.