Salvage - Silver Sea Remnants - thread 2

[Killkenny]

No you are being stubborn, if both melees are capped on hate it will be the one who hits more frequently that gets the largest amount of attention from the boss.

I am aware my sam is not typical but generally on our chariot fights I do around 65-70% (more in the case of LAC but the same rules don't apply as hate is reset on people every 25%) of the total damage with the 4/5 Usu, BB mnk doing the remainder. Even with me doing a large amount more damage, by the time the chariot is below 75% both of us are at CE and VE hate cap and the mnk actually sees more attention from the boss just because of the fact it attacks faster.

Also no, chariots higher defense and level don't have a greater impact on WS damage compared to any other monster in the game. Sams have a large attack boost in Y/G/K which allows them to put out much higher WS numbers than they would on higher level targets.

[Clave]

No you are being stubborn, if both melees are capped on hate it will be the one who hits more frequently that gets the largest amount of attention from the boss.

I am aware my sam is not typical but generally on our chariot fights I do around 65-70% (more in the case of LAC but the same rules don't apply as hate is reset on people every 25%) of the total damage with the 4/5 Usu, BB mnk doing the remainder. Even with me doing a large amount more damage, by the time the chariot is below 75% both of us are at CE and VE hate cap and the mnk actually sees more attention from the boss just because of the fact it attacks faster.

Also no, chariots higher defense and level don't have a greater impact on WS damage compared to any other monster in the game. Sams have a large attack boost in Y/G/K which allows them to put out much higher WS numbers than they would on higher level targets.

Don't mean to derail, but from an Amano SAM perspective, do you find yourself using Gekko or Kaiten more on salvage chariot bosses? My group hasn't done many yet so I haven't had much of a chance to test myself.

[Killkenny]

Kaiten always, with Minuet and Berserk it does a lot better. When Berserk is off it still tends to average a good 100-150 higher than gekko.

[mdkuser]

I'm monk and sam myself, and I started coming as sam recently ( im usually either mnk or thf). I have full merits except GK which I can't cap so stuck at 4/8. So far I don't come even close to mnk/nin BB+ full usu in term of damage on chariots ( sam/nin). Im considering going /war cause im rarely pullign hate. Gekkos aren't very impressive, does same or less dmg than asura fists.

Yesterday we did a Zh run, mnk did 60% and me 40% of the damage. Almost never pulled hate so /nin was useless xd. To my defense, I realized after, that I went retarded on accuracy gear cause I thought non caped merit would be an issue lol. Those mobs have high def but their evasion is less than that of Greater colibris, so even unmerited I will cap acc easilly with mermans earring and foragers instead. So assuming I removed acc gear for attack, that would have given me ~25-30 more attack, and would certainly not close the gap. /war I can probably do just as good as the mnk/nin, with difficulty lol. Average asuran fist was 500 and average gekko was 450, mnk had 90% accuracy. Someone mentionned darkness skillchains but they are always fully resisted. Also you cant really move on zh. boss so I never used ws in front of the mob, losing 20% potential WS dmg.

On the other hands sam + mnk is still my favorite combo, cause on lesser floors darkness SC and polearm completly destroy archaic gears.

[Killkenny]

/nin is so unbelievably pointless in ZR above all other zones, the chariot hits extremely slowly and not very hard, frogs hit very weak and the gears on f6 aren't very threatening either (not to mention gear and chariot tp moves strongly favour seigan).

I'll agree skillchains on chariots are resisted more often than not and aren't really worth it for that fight, however the rest of the run they are extremely useful and can happen frequently without making much conscious effort to do so.

For ZR boss why don't you just position yourself infront of it, diffusion ray seems to be used very infrequently compared to the other 2 tp moves and its not exactly dangerous.

For a group as experienced as yours you are extremely naive as to the effectiveness of seigan tanking, it doesn't mean you take huge amounts of damage in exchange for a small damage increase. You can mitigate damage to similar levels as utsusemi and it has the advantage of cutting out casting times.

Edit: Also post comparison of your sam and mnk tp/ws sets.

[gamez]

I know turtle strategies have come up countless times, but rather then a pull strategy, how many people should I be bringing for a group to kill turtle regularly, we're trying to cut hammerblow out of the rotation at the moment, but as a trio we usually can only do hammerblow plus one other NM whether it dekka + gyro, or powderkeg, or hammerblow > gyro > devilet, but never really far after that.

I know people 4-man it and I'm wondering how they handle time to climb that far up? skip hammerblow, clear gyro room to kill devilet, unlock door, sac gears room, kill rampart, do turtle? We're doing monk, redmage, thief, just trying to figure out what we're working with, trying to get an idea of the time we're working with, etc.

[Killkenny]

First floor take east and farm until you are pretty much fully unlocked and have everything you'd want to kill ramparts/turtle.

Second floor take SW and just zone straight up, the door is always unlocked.

Third floor go to GG3 and you can do it one of 2 ways. You can either have your thf train everything, stuff will deaggro at different points and this could get messy, especially with no brd and just 1 monk + rdm killing the stationary rampart (has assloads of hp). Or you can clear some/all of the gears then train the room, this would make it more managable.

Fourth floor, thf does sack in rampart room, rdm and mnk tag a rampart each (or mnk tags 2) and bring back to starter room and kill, rinse and repeat for last 2 ramparts. Pull CC back to the room just north of the room it pops in and fight in the NE corner (avoid casting magic when gears come through, save any dusty potions/healing powders etc for this just incase mnk has trouble with shadows or tp moves). Alternatively pull CC back to starter room and kill there, this takes ages and you need to know where gear train is or it could get messy (that goes for the rampart pulls also).

[gamez]

SW was what threw me, we've been taking NE porter and getting stuck clearing Gyroscopic Gear + Devilet, SW it sounds like we can go straight to GG3 and avoid G1 entirely, which would be great because we got Freya's Gloves yesterday and no longer need G1.

[Wolfknight]

You are just being stubborn, chariot's higher defense/level or w/e you will like to call it apparently has greater effect on WS than DOT damage, which explains why Ridill WAR is able to keep hate better than Gaxe WAR. I never said chariot bosses have some sort of hidden WS penalty.

Have you stopped to consider buffs, gear, or food the warrior using would favor Ridill[Pizza, Acc song, or etc]?

[ringthree]

This e-peen discussion about which job is best for Salvage is pretty pointless, because any decently geared DD can fill any of the DD roles in a run no matter the zone.

The only thing that I try to require as a leader is having the first DD in the lotting order having Provoke.

Outside of that I can and have worked with every possible job.

[Valyana]

Pull CC back to the room just north of the room it pops in and fight in the NE corner

I think of that as the corner of the hall, not a room.

I wouldn't expect the RDM to have any trouble pulling two ramparts, either. I've done it easily on BRD. All mages should bring a *bane throwing weapon for this so they can claim without magic.

[Killkenny]

The ramparts aren't a pushover though, it would be more than possible to pull all 4 (mnk gets 2 and rdm gets 2), but controlling them and potential reinforcements would be way too risky. Unless I misunderstood what you meant there would be no reason for the rdm to pull anymore than 1 rampart.

[mdkuser]

I know turtle strategies have come up countless times, but rather then a pull strategy, how many people should I be bringing for a group to kill turtle regularly, we're trying to cut hammerblow out of the rotation at the moment, but as a trio we usually can only do hammerblow plus one other NM whether it dekka + gyro, or powderkeg, or hammerblow > gyro > devilet, but never really far after that.

I know people 4-man it and I'm wondering how they handle time to climb that far up? skip hammerblow, clear gyro room to kill devilet, unlock door, sac gears room, kill rampart, do turtle? We're doing monk, redmage, thief, just trying to figure out what we're working with, trying to get an idea of the time we're working with, etc.

mnk rdm thf thats how I got my haramaki. Rdm was dualboxed and its relatively easy. You take the no NM route on 1F and kill every fomor until 15 min mark. Then warp to GG3 room immediately (take SW on 2F), clear as much as you can around the right rampart ( we used to clear all but one). Warp to 4F with ~45 left, and sac pull 2 doors at a time to start. Youll kill cc with 10 min left if everything went perfect, it gives room for one mistake no more. The same set up, but with no dual boxed, can kill hammerblow, powerdeg and GG3, with difficulty ( killed GG3 with 2 min left).

[gamez]

tl;dr babble in the spoilers here; (spoilering cause some people just don't need to care)

Spoiler: show

This will help me alot, I want to say I'm about 0/75-100 on turtle, but truthfully I just didn't count and my LS got a lot worse at doing turtle with its open door recruitment, would do every other gear NM etc before choosing to opt out of Dekka or Powderkeg for turtle. Which was the reason I never went back, and am now running lowman a year later with friends new to salvage(and doing impressively well / studying / learning fast for each member)

Being able to do turtle with 3 to 5 in a consistant and sure rate will help me finish haramaki, hopefully before I finish off stage 4 of my relic atm, otherwise my gear feels like it would have fallen so far behind. Gyro doesn't really get spammy for us, we tend to keep the other melee off and I use a proper balance of subtle blow and penance, occasionally when our TH4 friend can make runs (50% of the time) we'll have a fourth member as DRG, angon, feint, and penance make doing the gyro portion a breeze.

One last question, I'm pretty sure stationairy rampart reinforcements are all undead, do you just leave these actively beating on the monk or how do you deal with them, we used to leave them bard slept, so I'm not accustomed to reacting to these properly yet.

[Killkenny]

Ghosts can be slept, hounds and skeles you'd be better off binding and gravitying, the rampart doesn't actually attack and its tp moves do next to nothing so the rdm can be free to kite undead.

[pchan]

tl;dr babble in the spoilers here; (spoilering cause some people just don't need to care)

Spoiler: show

This will help me alot, I want to say I'm about 0/75-100 on turtle, but truthfully I just didn't count and my LS got a lot worse at doing turtle with its open door recruitment, would do every other gear NM etc before choosing to opt out of Dekka or Powderkeg for turtle. Which was the reason I never went back, and am now running lowman a year later with friends new to salvage(and doing impressively well / studying / learning fast for each member)

Being able to do turtle with 3 to 5 in a consistant and sure rate will help me finish haramaki, hopefully before I finish off stage 4 of my relic atm, otherwise my gear feels like it would have fallen so far behind. Gyro doesn't really get spammy for us, we tend to keep the other melee off and I use a proper balance of subtle blow and penance, occasionally when our TH4 friend can make runs (50% of the time) we'll have a fourth member as DRG, angon, feint, and penance make doing the gyro portion a breeze.

One last question, I'm pretty sure stationairy rampart reinforcements are all undead, do you just leave these actively beating on the monk or how do you deal with them, we used to leave them bard slept, so I'm not accustomed to reacting to these properly yet.

First you don't need to kill the ares NM, so you can leave 1 gear , then kill the porper rampart. If you put only 2 melees, w/e the job they are, on the ares NM, it will die in a few minutes. Imo though if your only goal is the turtle you should skip ares NM.

Second, the ramparts in the NM room do pop undeads (ghost being sleepable) but nothing a rdm cannot hold with bind&gravity. If you want to worry about pets when low manning CC, it's on 4th floor, where they are actually harder to tank than the ramparts due to double attack ;

[Finalnub]

First you don't need to kill the ares NM, so you can leave 1 gear , then kill the porper rampart. If you put only 2 melees, w/e the job they are, on the ares NM, it will die in a few minutes. Imo though if your only goal is the turtle you should skip ares NM.

Second, the ramparts in the NM room do pop undeads (ghost being sleepable) but nothing a rdm cannot hold with bind&gravity. If you want to worry about pets when low manning CC, it's on 4th floor, where they are actually harder to tank than the ramparts due to double attack ;

What's the best way to deal with the 3F east Rampart if we're not planning to do the Ares' leg nm? Surprisingly we don't have anyone wanting the Ares' Legs so we're planning to Hammer->Dekka->G1->Turtle.

We tried having 1 person train everything and zerging down the Rampart but it was a lot beefier than I thought>_> The gears deaggroed at different points and wandered back and laid waste to our party. What are we doing wrong here?

[Aihree]

Your puller is getting too far ahead of the mob he's kiting. Get a good lead, then take off the +movement.

[pchan]

What's the best way to deal with the 3F east Rampart if we're not planning to do the Ares' leg nm? Surprisingly we don't have anyone wanting the Ares' Legs so we're planning to Hammer->Dekka->G1->Turtle.

We tried having 1 person train everything and zerging down the Rampart but it was a lot beefier than I thought>_> The gears deaggroed at different points and wandered back and laid waste to our party. What are we doing wrong here?

You can kite them with a thf ; having a pair a flee boots helps also. You can also kill half of the gears then kill the rampart. If you have at least 2 melee, this shouldn't take more than 10 minutes. Usually having the THF kite the whole room is a good dea if the correct rampart is at the back of the room. The 100% safe method is clearing at least 4 gears (a rdm could easily handle links) though.

[Ahlah]

No you are being stubborn, if both melees are capped on hate it will be the one who hits more frequently that gets the largest amount of attention from the boss.

I am aware my sam is not typical but generally on our chariot fights I do around 65-70% (more in the case of LAC but the same rules don't apply as hate is reset on people every 25%) of the total damage with the 4/5 Usu, BB mnk doing the remainder. Even with me doing a large amount more damage, by the time the chariot is below 75% both of us are at CE and VE hate cap and the mnk actually sees more attention from the boss just because of the fact it attacks faster.

Also no, chariots higher defense and level don't have a greater impact on WS damage compared to any other monster in the game. Sams have a large attack boost in Y/G/K which allows them to put out much higher WS numbers than they would on higher level targets.

It's near impossible for tanks to cap hate on LAC since Brainjack resets hate every 25% HP.

According to your theory, 2h weapon DD should be holding hate until both jobs cap VE and CE (i.e. the first 75% of the figth) if both WS and DOT damage receive the same penalty from Chariot's higher def/level correction. This doesn't explain why most 2h DD jobs are struggling to share hate with well geared MNK is likely to hold hate throughout the whole fight.

The difference in def/level correction has greater effect on WS damage calculation than DOT damage, SAMs are lucky because they don't have to sacrifice store TP trait and meditate.

This e-peen discussion about which job is best for Salvage is pretty pointless, because any decently geared DD can fill any of the DD roles in a run no matter the zone.

The only thing that I try to require as a leader is having the first DD in the lotting order having Provoke.

Outside of that I can and have worked with every possible job.

I agree that any smart well geared DD job who know how to melee tank can do the job. Just want to point out Gaxe WAR who struggle to share hate with tank (and happen to have Ridill) can actually try Maneater/Ridill combo on weaker Chariot boss such as LAC. Also double MNK still carry its own merit - they can put up good numbers compared to other 2h DD jobs, and with full merit they can keep penance on chariot all the time, in theory should cut the TP move numbers which reduce the burden of inexperienced mages.