Salvage - Silver Sea Remnants - thread 2

[Neosutra]

Did I just see pchan advocate rdm puller over brd? Jesus Christ you have some fucked up perspectives.

[pchan]

Did I just see pchan advocate rdm puller over brd? Jesus Christ you have some fucked up perspectives.

been waiting on your pics for 1 month.

[Fridell]

RDM can pull stuff in Salvage really easy and still do what they should do yo.
I'd say they do it much better then BRDs aswell.

[Miraun]

RDM can pull stuff in Salvage really easy and still do what they should do yo.
I'd say they do it much better then BRDs aswell.

That's entirely dependant on the speed and distance of the pulls. Typically our BRD only has time for a single song before needing to go out and pull again. I don't see how your RDM would be able to handle haste order, refresh, and curing while pulling. Furthermore, the RDM would need to buff him/herself in order to accomodate for the WHM sub, while a BRD can go /NIN for pulling. Unless you're talking about bringing in a second RDM as a dedicated puller, in which case you're putting yourself in more of a burdened position for cells.

[Neosutra]

ITT: Bards are a waste in salvage and make no difference. - My favorite quote from Pchan.

If sucking is the key to drops in salvage, it is no suprise Pchan's group gets twice the drops of anyone here.

But seriously, how does your rdm keep up with main healing, hasting, enfeebling, self buffs, and constant pulls? And what the FUCK is your brd doing during this time?

[FailureMidgard]

DD point of view of magery. Level a mage job sometimes, they are not only the cure-spammers that chain-cure you sam/war's butt. Whenever I go rdm and we have 2 DD, slow,para,blind are enaugh to let me pull on rdm, diaII, with close to no healing at all. If I don't have gear, i have to rest mp often, so I can't pull and the thf has to, which considerably slows the run.

I have whm, rdm, sch, and brd all leveled. I have done many salvages on all 4 of those jobs. I have also done it a ton on Sam. Debuffs have their place. Dia is the only debuff worth casting on standard mobs that die insanely fast.

Then again, if you knew how to read, you'd know I have at least 3 of those jobs leveled. Too lazy to get my wife to make me a new sig, but rdm and mnk are 75 too, if you'd like to know before you attempt to say I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm not really sure what Fridell is posting, I agree entirely melee should level a mage, but my view of what a mage should do in SSR is dead on, your view is the glorified "I want my cells so I can feel important" version. You and Ahlah would get along. The important things are debuff removal, Dia2/3, Haste, and making sure nobody dies.

Our THF is a good portion of damage, seems silly to make him pull. We have always run our SSRs meripo style, with a bard pulling.

You can't sleep shit with no gear. You can't land debuff reliably with no gear. A rdm needs weapon+body+rings+head as minimal unlock to be considered efficient, which only leaves 3-4 cells left that can pump his mp with 200+ easily. If you need to gear you 3rd DD to be able to have a correct killing speed you're doing it wrong. I'll repeat myself, once morrigan NM is dead there is no way you have 3 DDs with full cells unlocked and at this point there is very little left to kill -10 gears - 4 doors and 2 NMs.

Can't sleep Fomor anyway. Everyone will have weapon and body by the time you are on gears, and even gearing 3 melee before a rdm, the rdm usually has at least 4-5 other slots covered. Ring/body/head are also the few slots we go ahead and do 1 tank then rdm on. Hand/leg/back we let 3 melee get first.
I can easily counter with your lack of logic and say if you "need to gear your red mage first to be able to sleep things and keep people alive, you're doing it wrong".

EITHER WAY WORKS mainly because there is -tons- of room for error. You need your gear because you sit there and full debuff every mob while pulling. Our red mage can solo heal the run, diaing every mob, keeping all 3 melee hasted, and not letting anyone die. He doesn't even ever need to convert before CC floor. The red mage's gear -only- matters on CC floor, and by the time you kill GG3, he should be pretty close to full geared anyway. Even our bard is at that point usually...

I've already said 2 DD is more than enaugh to do 25% in time before charm. I've done the boss twice with 2 mnks and no brd and we didn't get more than 3 charms.

I wasn't really arguing there, just stating that ya, you shouldn't have a 4th charm. But the extra DD would drop a charm, if there wasn't the 25% catch.



As to the bard pulling. First off, a bard can -easily- keep 4 songs up while pulling. It is even easier in SSR than it is in a merit party. Every pull comes from the same direction, it's easier to avoid links in SSR, mobs die a little slower in SSR, etc. Also, you don't need any fancy shit to deal with the mob getting to camp 20% early. 1 melee switches off and tanks it until the first dies. With 3 hp/sj/ja cells off 1f guaranteed, you always have 2 melee capable of tanking, so whichever isn't tanking #1 tanks #2 (oh ya, our 2nd tank is a drg/sam usually). I mean, I guess if you're still living in the past and think monks are necessary, maybe that's not possible. But the drg can switch, hit it twice, have seigan+3rd eye up, and not take a single hit before I provoke it off him and we're all on it.

Anyway, I agree that a red mage puller is better than a bard puller in a vacuum. They have more abilities to control the pull, keep themselves alive/etc. That being said, they are also more useful sitting around on the backline. The bard's real job is to keep songs up. The reason people have bards pull in merit parties is because once songs are up, them playing with their subjob isn't that useful. We have bards pull SSR because once they get their songs up, you either lose your main support for the melee to go pull shit, or you lose...close to nothing having the bard pull. And what the rdm gains in pulling isn't the least bit necessary.
Then again, your group willingly kills slower so you can give your rdm gear (I assume that's you, and that's why you insist on taking the gear?).

[Fridell]

That's entirely dependant on the speed and distance of the pulls. Typically our BRD only has time for a single song before needing to go out and pull again. I don't see how your RDM would be able to handle haste order, refresh, and curing while pulling. Furthermore, the RDM would need to buff him/herself in order to accomodate for the WHM sub, while a BRD can go /NIN for pulling. Unless you're talking about bringing in a second RDM as a dedicated puller, in which case you're putting yourself in more of a burdened position for cells.

I've been solo mage as RDM pulling, curing, buffing, hasting, refreshing and leading run, it's frustrating but works when needed to be done.
But unless farming something under weird condition where our WHM can't come, we have RDM + WHM, not 1 RDM, and usually I'm not the RDM at all.

RDM can control pulls with more safty compared to BRD if you wish, not to mention a BRD with no HP cells at the time can get mauled by a link, where RDM can pull way more safe.
Not to mention RDM is pretty damn perfect for pulling in Salvage since all spells it casts is pretty damn fast compared to song x 2 or song x 1 pull > back > repeat.


Just to add: Dia II is only the real enfeeble you should / need cast as RDM for all mobs but NMs.

[Uzor]

1) Sorry but wtf is doing your brd while you debuff/heal/pull ? just singing his song? tossing a cure or 2? I don't get why there is still group where the brd isnt the puller...That's from far the best way to save time. Maybe that's why 1 healer looks impossible to you...

Well, our BRD sometimes dualbox MNK or THF, which explains a lot He have no problem pulling if he don't dualbox though.

That's entirely dependant on the speed and distance of the pulls. Typically our BRD only has time for a single song before needing to go out and pull again. I don't see how your RDM would be able to handle haste order, refresh, and curing while pulling. Furthermore, the RDM would need to buff him/herself in order to accomodate for the WHM sub, while a BRD can go /NIN for pulling. Unless you're talking about bringing in a second RDM as a dedicated puller, in which case you're putting yourself in more of a burdened position for cells.

A RDM should have no problem healing, debuffing, haste/refresh cycle and pull, as well as if the situation warrants it. I've done it myself, it really isn't that hard. If you can handle the doors on 4F as well as hasting/refreshing and healing, you should have no problem doing all of that in morri room, especially if you bring a WHM.

And Fail, Pchan usually isn't the RDM. We have other people with RDM lvled, myself included (albeit I usually go as WHM). Pchan tend to go MNK. In SS, there's not a lot of things you can sleep, only gears, ramparts and reinforcements. The majority of the run is versus fomors, which are unsleepable. While it is still possible to enfeeble most stuff without gear, your enfeebles won't be very strong. If you gear 2 DD's up fully, then gear up the RDM, you should have no problem clearing everything with time left, and your RDM should have no problem pulling, hasting, refreshing, enfeebling and sleeping all at the same time.

I suppose you wouldn't know if you've never tried though.

And I have to wonder what's with the Pchan's group sucking comments. First of, it is my group. Pchan and Mdk are co-leaders. I really don't see how a group can suck and still clear everything in all zones but Bhaflau (where it is somewhat impossible) with time remaining. Just because someone do things different from you doesn't mean they suck. Those kind of comments are childish and unwarranted. Yes, Pchan can be obnoxious at times, and he isn't the best person in the world at getting his opinions and arguments across, but he's still very good at what he do. Apparently, those traits have become a sign of suckage nowadays.

[Neosutra]

Drop the whm and get a brd and kill faster?

Get a brd that can pull w/o linking and keep songs up while having mobs waiting to be killed?

Cast phalanx on the brd?

[Uzor]

We can pull just fine without linking. If you can pull SS for 2 years without ever pulling links, I congratulate you for being perfect.

[Darkhelmet]

Neo reminds me of Izzy Mandelbaum.

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photopost/data/615/lb3.JPG

[mdkuser]

We clear all zone with time left except bhaflau, and have almost 20 completed set. I think we dont suck.

Edit: about rdm pulling thing, its easier to pull on rdm than brd cause bard cant sleep ( even gear resist). also all JP pickups run have rdm puller;

Spoiler: show

JP pickups dont suck, unlike non-JPs. Most clear all Nms soem all + boss. got 1/3 of my drops in them :D

[Miraun]

There's a very distinct difference between a RDM refreshing/hasting/curing/buffing/pulling, and just happening to also have a WHM there... That really fundamentally change your argument. As far as I'm concerned, with a WHM present, there's no reliance on the RDM to do those vital functions, as most can be deferred responsibility to the WHM.

Really it comes down to an assessment of the best 6th slot: WHM or BRD. I've NEVER found WHM to be effective in Salvage. Even post-WHM buff, I was dissatisfied with their performance. BRD's buffs along with ballads (w/ +1 Ballad instrument) for the RDM clearly outweigh the necessity for a WHM in the primary party. Salvage zones are not hard enough to boast about clearing zones with full farming. I'm simply surprised that you haven't found a BRD infinitely more effective than a WHM.

In regards to the 'you suck' comment. It's been a reoccurring theme that the only people that get drops from salvage are the terrible terrible groups. A common story we've heard is, "Ohh, we got up to the third floor with 20 minutes remaining, because we wiped 5 times on the first and second floors, lol. We cleared Gyro3 with 30 seconds remaining, and the 35 legs dropped, so I'm 1/2. No, we didn't get any other drops, we didn't kill any other NMs." So yeah, getting 20 completed sets doesn't necessarilly mean you're good.

[Uzor]

I know there's a large difference between a RDM pulling, enfeebling, refreshing, hasting and healing alone and having a WHM there as well. I am fully aware of that. That doesn't change the fact that it is still possible to do, and that I have done it myself, as well as Pchan and our other RDM's.

Just because someone gets drop doesn't mean they suck. That's something people that don't get drops made up to make themselves feel better. We do Salvage 7 or more times a week, so quite naturally we get a lot of drops and have sets to show for it.

And who said we bring a WHM instead of a BRD? A WHM can be very efficient in Salvage. I can heal, haste, and hell, I can even keep the 4 ramparts on 5F busy as well. Just so happens that I don't need to, as we always have a RDM there, and if we don't, I can go RDM to do it. I admit, RDM is more efficient in Salvage, but WHM is efficient as well. There is, however, no reason to replace a BRD with a WHM, and I never claimed you should, nor that we do.

[Neosutra]

Our brds link at least 1-2 fomor/imps almost every time. We have them kite them past us and we target the imp. By the time the imp is dead, the fomor has lost hate and the brd is pulling it back to us.

But seriously, you ignored the other points. The only reason you can/should be having your rdm pull is if you brought and whm and have NO brds. Drop the whm, get an extra brd, and kill faster. If your brd is getting the shit beat out of them, or cant keep songs up, or is a slow puller: Get better brds.

[FailureMidgard]

A RDM should have no problem healing, debuffing, haste/refresh cycle and pull, as well as if the situation warrants it. I've done it myself, it really isn't that hard. If you can handle the doors on 4F as well as hasting/refreshing and healing, you should have no problem doing all of that in morri room, especially if you bring a WHM.

And Fail, Pchan usually isn't the RDM. We have other people with RDM lvled, myself included (albeit I usually go as WHM). Pchan tend to go MNK. In SS, there's not a lot of things you can sleep, only gears, ramparts and reinforcements. The majority of the run is versus fomors, which are unsleepable. While it is still possible to enfeeble most stuff without gear, your enfeebles won't be very strong. If you gear 2 DD's up fully, then gear up the RDM, you should have no problem clearing everything with time left, and your RDM should have no problem pulling, hasting, refreshing, enfeebling and sleeping all at the same time.

I suppose you wouldn't know if you've never tried though.

And I have to wonder what's with the Pchan's group sucking comments. First of, it is my group. Pchan and Mdk are co-leaders. I really don't see how a group can suck and still clear everything in all zones but Bhaflau (where it is somewhat impossible) with time remaining. Just because someone do things different from you doesn't mean they suck. Those kind of comments are childish and unwarranted. Yes, Pchan can be obnoxious at times, and he isn't the best person in the world at getting his opinions and arguments across, but he's still very good at what he do. Apparently, those traits have become a sign of suckage nowadays.

The discussion begin because your idiot friend pchan is saying people are stupid for bringing 3 DD. He also thinks people are stupid for gearing 3 DD before a rdm. Yet all of us can clear the exact things you can, with different setups. As I've said, it all works. If you 2box a brd, then yea, having the brd pull is dumb. If you don't, then it has the same benefits of a merit party.

Groups can clear SSR with only a whm+brd, no rdm at all. They can do it with just a rdm, they can do it with 2 mages. Really, it all works, which is what I've been saying.

You can cast slow, you can not cast slow. You can use sam/war, you can use mnk/nin. I'm not trying to tell you guys that it's not possible to do it with rdm getting cells that early. I'm trying to say it is 100% without a doubt possible to give your rdm cells 4th and full clear the zone with time remaining. I am saying that giving gear to any of your players that know what they are doing (except the bard) is beneficial. It isn't going to be noticeably different if you go ddx3-rdm or ddx2-rdm-dd unless your group sucks.

I still think slow/para are a huge waste of effort/mp on normal fomor.

[Mansin]

My red mage has never had an issue or mentioned having an issue debuffing fomor without gear. Weapon/body is usually what he has when we go up to 2F with 3 DD + THF.

[mdkuser]

he'll have trouble paralyzing because they naturally resist (undead). but gear= stronger slow and para.

[pchan]

It isn't going to be noticeably different if you go ddx3-rdm or ddx2-rdm-dd unless your group sucks.

I still think slow/para are a huge waste of effort/mp on normal fomor.

Nice one. A lot of babla to admit that the third DD brings absolutely no contribution to the success of the run. Only reason you gear 3dd before mages is if you need the damage, obviously it's not.

[pchan]

ITT: Bards are a waste in salvage and make no difference. - My favorite quote from Pchan.

If sucking is the key to drops in salvage, it is no suprise Pchan's group gets twice the drops of anyone here.

We don't suck to the point that we need 2 brd and 4 DDs to clear the zone though. The real skill is not to clear the zone with the minimum time left but it's to do it with minimum required players.

But seriously, how does your rdm keep up with main healing, hasting, enfeebling, self buffs, and constant pulls? And what the FUCK is your brd doing during this time?

Skillz ; wtf is your rdm doing when the brd pulls.