Salvage - Arrapago Remnants - thread 2

[ringthree]

What do you people aim to get in the first floor? We've been going in hoping to get (no specific order):

a) Enough weapons for melees (including MNKs). This is usually WAR THF SAM NIN MNK (WAR and THF get first weaps)
b) Enough magic for casters, including tanks. Usually RDM WHM BRD WAR MNK.
c) Enough JA for melee. (Same as weapons)
d) Enough HP for tanks and melees. WAR MNK SAM NIN

But we're just taking too long. Lately we've been only focusing on farming runs, and I'd like to see a farming run ending in a boss fight sometime soon. Mostly our problem is getting JAs and HPs. Usually by the time we get to second floor we're down 50 minutes and only have 1-2 JAs plus the 1-2 from the starting chest, and only 2 people with HP unlocked.

What path do you all take on the first floor? I'm the puller and chain-pull as much as possible, I doubt that idle time is a real issue, so it must be we're overfarming or clearing the wrong wings. Should we expect less cells? If that's the case, where do you make up for it? I don't know but fighting the boss with nearly naked tanks doesn't sound too safe to me.


PS: Hate Enlil's Kollucks.

Pulling is silly, don't do that very often. Rage into the rooms and just kill the mobs. Give WAR and MNK weapons first, abilities to MNK first for Counterstance, and follow the weapons order up by SAM > NIN > THF. You can keep killing Qutrubs beyond the below route if you need to until THF has weapons, in bad runs:

- Clear the entire northwest wing. Sometimes we skip the Qutrubs in the last room if we're getting good drop rates on head/weapon and don't need more.
- Backtrack and clear the first room in the southwest wing, then the Lamia SMN, then the Lamia COR in the next room. Pull the two Qutrubs if you're still lacking, and/or continue along and pull the next Lamia SMN in the third room if you got shafted on magic so far.
- Backtrack and clear out the entire southeast wing, porting up once you've obtained HP for the necessary parties (which for us is generally 4 melee, BRD, and RDM) and have killed the Lamiae you need for ability/magic cells. If you're still having bad luck with magic, deviate from the path and go towards the northeast wing, pulling the first Lamia BRD, then go back to the southeast wing.

This has never failed us, even though sometimes the drop rates are bad. We kill the two Lamiae on the second floor if needed, or get TP on the skeletons if not. Giving THF weapon at the start does nothing, TH+1 is not going to make enough of a difference. And the amount that your MNK will be countering with CS up makes it very much worth giving him first weapons and abilities. Give all equipment and such the MNK first as well, and make sure they don't suck. Otherwise, give the stuff to the WAR. Whoever gets stuff first, should also be getting Haste and Phalanx II.

Edit: By the way, apologies for the late response. Been caught up with Dancer.

Two nitpicky things. First, we give our THF a weapon first, placebo TH with Thief Knife really does seem to make a difference here. Second, remember that if you don't get the cells you need on the first floor, you can get them on the third floor and even the fourth floor if you still need magic. We have gotten to the point that we spend very little time on the first floor now. Two weapons, two HP and enough magic for those that need it (we even skimp on magic for tanks of the first floor if it doesn't come before we get the two HP).

[Odd]

we spend 30-40min on first floor clearing 3 of 4 wings and still have time to full clear all NMs and boss.

[ringthree]

we spend 30-40min on first floor clearing 3 of 4 wings and still have time to full clear all NMs and boss.

Thats cool. What is your party set up and how do you do that?

[Znake]

Thanks for the advice Wizerd, I'll try following that route the next time we go in there. About how long does it take for you? I'd like to know if we're really throwing time out the window or if it's just unavoidable to do so.

Pulling is silly, don't do that very often. Rage into the rooms and just kill the mobs. Give WAR and MNK weapons first, abilities to MNK first for Counterstance

Concerning raging into the rooms, do you have the MNK run in with Counterstance and leave all the mobs on him while curebombing? I'm pretty skeptical of doing something like this since we always struggle when we get links. There's no problem raging in skelleton rooms since I can just Lullaby them, but it seems a bit counterproductive because I can just pull them before the other dies and it's the same deal, ala merit party. Qutrubs and Lamia won't sleep though, and just leaving 4 mobs pounding on the MNK with only a RDM with magic unlocked doesn't sound like the best idea to me. Maybe it works, I don't know.

Giving the MNK a weapon first feels kinda stupid when we have a SAM and a NIN who are contributing basically nothing to the fights. We do it in Silver Sea, where weapons are not scarce, but in Arrapago I feel our killing speed improves more when we give a weapon to the SAM and NIN first instead of the MNK. We always give first ability to WAR, mainly because he's our main tank - we work a lot better when we have a Provoke.

[Wizerd]

Thanks for the advice Wizerd, I'll try following that route the next time we go in there. About how long does it take for you? I'd like to know if we're really throwing time out the window or if it's just unavoidable to do so.

Pulling is silly, don't do that very often. Rage into the rooms and just kill the mobs. Give WAR and MNK weapons first, abilities to MNK first for Counterstance

Concerning raging into the rooms, do you have the MNK run in with Counterstance and leave all the mobs on him while curebombing? I'm pretty skeptical of doing something like this since we always struggle when we get links. There's no problem raging in skelleton rooms since I can just Lullaby them, but it seems a bit counterproductive because I can just pull them before the other dies and it's the same deal, ala merit party. Qutrubs and Lamia won't sleep though, and just leaving 4 mobs pounding on the MNK with only a RDM with magic unlocked doesn't sound like the best idea to me. Maybe it works, I don't know.

Giving the MNK a weapon first feels kinda stupid when we have a SAM and a NIN who are contributing basically nothing to the fights. We do it in Silver Sea, where weapons are not scarce, but in Arrapago I feel our killing speed improves more when we give a weapon to the SAM and NIN first instead of the MNK. We always give first ability to WAR, mainly because he's our main tank - we work a lot better when we have a Provoke.

When I say raging into rooms, typically I just mean going into the start of the room and fighting the mobs where they are. Often, the mobs won't link or more won't aggro unless you have yellow HP, which happens sometimes and if it does, it's no big deal because your main person (the one who linked/aggrod because of yellow HP) is taking 0-15 damage per hit anyway with Phalanx II on. Berserk and Counterstance don't make you take any more damage on 1F, since the mobs are already hitting their cap pretty much, on you, they're just that weak.

For the weapons, anyone giving weapons to a THF first is missing out on a lot, I think. The slightly increased Treasure Hunter effect might yield you one extra weapon cell or head cell over a period of 2-3 runs, and is not worth it. The route I take clears 17 Qutrubs, which has never yielded us less than 2 weapons, and most runs yields us at least 4. Our highest weapon yield in those 17 has been about 11 weapons, only 1 of which went to waste fortunately. Head cells seem rarer for us, but we still get between 1 and 8 depending on how the run decides to play us.

The reason we don't give the THF weapons is because he offers nothing in terms of kill speed in this zone - piercing receives a penalty on both Qutrubs and Skeletons, which is a majority of the fighting when you're cell prepping. If you need weapons, take one of the ports on the west side instead of the east side (you'll know in advance after killing the 17 Qutrubs whether you'll need more), and kill the 6 Qutrubs on that floor. Also, QQTH tends to drop weapons. There was 1 run a while ago I did where the THF never got weapons at all, but he was still offering Steal and Treasure Hunter, which is the only reason I bring a THF in the first place.

In the other three zones, I know enough weapons will drop that THF always gets weapons last for melee there too.

The reason MNK gets one of the first weapons is primarily for Counterstance. If you have one of every melee, with weapons only, all hasted with the same songs, and no other gear on and stats down, the MNK is generally going to take hate. With this in mind, higher counter hits and the guarantee that the MNK will be the one tanking speeds us up more than any SAM or NIN can.

Asuran Fists is also the second most damaging weapon skill of any of the DDs you listed, with only Raging Rush/Rampage (whichever the WAR uses) beating it. This doesn't mean the WAR should get abilities first, unless their merits and weapon outclass the MNK (in which case, even I would give the WAR abilities first). In the case of a MNK without Destroyers vs a WAR with Perdu Voulge and merits in Great Axe, the WAR wins hands down. Skill of the players and merits are also taken into account (the MNK who gets weapons and abilities first also has 4 Enmity merits, which help a lot in keeping hate).

I've brought SAM and NIN to Salvage before, and to be honest, I was not impressed with their performance, even with their non-gimp gear. It would probably take a pretty well-geared Samurai with a relic Great Katana for me to give them weapons first.

I realize the reason other people give MNKs weapons last is because they can already do damage, while certain players can't. Sure, it makes everyone feel good, but it's just not efficient. Especially when these groups seem to give the MNK abilities first anyway. The order of Weapons and the order of Abilities should always be the same, among your melees. Why have a NIN who can use his Katanas and a weaponless MNK able to Asuran Fists?

Oh, and to answer your question, that route takes us about 25 minutes when we don't have to fight extra mobs and we clear the southeast entirely.

[ringthree]

I realize the reason other people give MNKs weapons last is because they can already do damage, while certain players can't. Sure, it makes everyone feel good, but it's just not efficient. Especially when these groups seem to give the MNK abilities first anyway. The order of Weapons and the order of Abilities should always be the same, among your melees. Why have a NIN who can use his Katanas and a weaponless MNK able to Asuran Fists?

No offense, but I completely disagree with you here. The difference in damage between a MNK without weapons and a MNK with weapons is not going to be even close to the difference between another DD without weapons versus having weapons. Abilities should go to the MNK's for Counterstance and WS's, but they do not need a weapon to do these. In pure total damage done, a weapon for a non-MNK DD is going to provide more net damage than a weapon for a MNK. Two-handed weapons and "occasionally attacks" weapons on the first floors are very strong.

[Wizerd]

I realize the reason other people give MNKs weapons last is because they can already do damage, while certain players can't. Sure, it makes everyone feel good, but it's just not efficient. Especially when these groups seem to give the MNK abilities first anyway. The order of Weapons and the order of Abilities should always be the same, among your melees. Why have a NIN who can use his Katanas and a weaponless MNK able to Asuran Fists?

No offense, but I completely disagree with you here. The difference in damage between a MNK without weapons and a MNK with weapons is not going to be even close to the difference between another DD without weapons versus having weapons. Abilities should go to the MNK's for Counterstance and WS's, but they do not need a weapon to do these. In pure total damage done, a weapon for a non-MNK DD is going to provide more net damage than a weapon for a MNK. Two-handed weapons and "occasionally attacks" weapons on the first floors are very strong.

It's all in the weapon skill strength. That's where most of our damage comes from on 1F, and why at least 1 MNK gets first weapons. The above was just a long way of saying this and trying to explain it. What use is someone hitting for 100 damage every 5 seconds if they can't use the TP they're gaining?

Edit: You could be doubling your MNK's WS damage (as well as their normal hits) by giving them weapons. Since the one with abilities also gets Haste first and foremost, it increases damage even more.

[Znake]

Thanks for the response, I'll post back if I have any doubts after we try it out.

[Wizerd]

Thanks for the response, I'll post back if I have any doubts after we try it out.

The only catch to giving MNK weapons first is they have to be good. Well geared; Black Belt, Destroyers, Byakko's/Usu legs, Walmart Turban/Usu head, Shura Togi, and good gear in the rest of the slots too, as well as be at least partially merited in sensible things. If they're not or if they suck, don't even bother.

[Znake]

Thanks for the response, I'll post back if I have any doubts after we try it out.

The only catch to giving MNK weapons first is they have to be good. Well geared; Black Belt, Destroyers, Byakko's/Usu legs, Walmart Turban/Usu head, Shura Togi, and good gear in the rest of the slots too, as well as be at least partially merited in sensible things. If they're not or if they suck, don't even bother.

The only thing our MNK is missing is a Black Belt. He uses Shura Togi, Byakko's, Usukane Feet, Destroyers, Walahra, O Kotes, etc. I'm pretty sure he's well meritted too, working on 5/5 Counter at the moment.

[Seditedi]

Also gotta remember to have your best MNK getting SJ before the other ones lol.
Did Bhoot and by accident our best MNK didn't have SJ so he sponged like crazy, had to have him turn because the other ones didn't pull hate off him :< Bhoot hits like a truck

[ringthree]

I realize the reason other people give MNKs weapons last is because they can already do damage, while certain players can't. Sure, it makes everyone feel good, but it's just not efficient. Especially when these groups seem to give the MNK abilities first anyway. The order of Weapons and the order of Abilities should always be the same, among your melees. Why have a NIN who can use his Katanas and a weaponless MNK able to Asuran Fists?

No offense, but I completely disagree with you here. The difference in damage between a MNK without weapons and a MNK with weapons is not going to be even close to the difference between another DD without weapons versus having weapons. Abilities should go to the MNK's for Counterstance and WS's, but they do not need a weapon to do these. In pure total damage done, a weapon for a non-MNK DD is going to provide more net damage than a weapon for a MNK. Two-handed weapons and "occasionally attacks" weapons on the first floors are very strong.

It's all in the weapon skill strength. That's where most of our damage comes from on 1F, and why at least 1 MNK gets first weapons. The above was just a long way of saying this and trying to explain it. What use is someone hitting for 100 damage every 5 seconds if they can't use the TP they're gaining?

Edit: You could be doubling your MNK's WS damage (as well as their normal hits) by giving them weapons. Since the one with abilities also gets Haste first and foremost, it increases damage even more.

I have not parsed it to say for sure, but I am going to go ahead and observe that I have never seen a doubling of my damage (I go as MNK) from just having my Destroyers vs. no weapon. You definitely do hit harder, but you do not hit hard enough to net more damage than another weaponless two-handed or "occasionally attacks" DD, even if it is a 200 skill hand-to-hand job.

Don't get me wrong here, to each their own, and people reading this should pick and choose from the different options and opinions to create their own strategy. I just have a problem with your assertion that there is a doubling of the damage done by giving a MNK their Destroyers (I can't speak to Spharai as I have no experience with them).

[Wizerd]

Thanks for the response, I'll post back if I have any doubts after we try it out.

The only catch to giving MNK weapons first is they have to be good. Well geared; Black Belt, Destroyers, Byakko's/Usu legs, Walmart Turban/Usu head, Shura Togi, and good gear in the rest of the slots too, as well as be at least partially merited in sensible things. If they're not or if they suck, don't even bother.

The only thing our MNK is missing is a Black Belt. He uses Shura Togi, Byakko's, Usukane Feet, Destroyers, Walahra, O Kotes, etc. I'm pretty sure he's well meritted too, working on 5/5 Counter at the moment.

He'll be fine then. Good luck.

In response to ringthree: It's not quite a 100% increase, but it's pretty close (I'm not sure, I made the decision to give MNKs weapon first a while ago after testing both ways and saving 3 minutes in the first 10 by giving to MNKs first, compared to giving other DDs first). If I had to guess, I'd say it's about a 75%-80% increase?

I agree, though, everyone should make sure their own decision, but I urge anyone who hasn't yet, to try both ways before deciding. It depends heavily on your melees, how they are, their gear, and everything, never ever just the jobs.

[Neosutra]

Thanks for the response, I'll post back if I have any doubts after we try it out.

The only catch to giving MNK weapons first is they have to be good. Well geared; Black Belt, Destroyers, Byakko's/Usu legs, Walmart Turban/Usu head, Shura Togi, and good gear in the rest of the slots too, as well as be at least partially merited in sensible things. If they're not or if they suck, don't even bother.

The only thing our MNK is missing is a Black Belt. He uses Shura Togi, Byakko's, Usukane Feet, Destroyers, Walahra, O Kotes, etc. I'm pretty sure he's well meritted too, working on 5/5 Counter at the moment.

He'll be fine then. Good luck.

In response to ringthree: It's not quite a 100% increase, but it's pretty close (I'm not sure, I made the decision to give MNKs weapon first a while ago after testing both ways and saving 3 minutes in the first 10 by giving to MNKs first, compared to giving other DDs first). If I had to guess, I'd say it's about a 75%-80% increase?

I agree, though, everyone should make sure their own decision, but I urge anyone who hasn't yet, to try both ways before deciding. It depends heavily on your melees, how they are, their gear, and everything, never ever just the jobs.

I have tried both ways, and parsed both ways.

First off, first weapon always goes to thf for placebo TH.

Second goes to our other melee DD (varies between a nin, relic war, and a relic sam).

The damage increase from any one of those 4 exceeds that of the mnk getting a 20% boost in base damage (and crit hit bonus i know).

Its not even close.

So basically we get 4 solid Melee DDs after the first chest, clear the first wing in about 10 min or less, get 2 weapons for our mnks that way, and then clear the SE wing and get off the first floor in 30 min.

[aurik]

+18 dmg on top of 35 base is way more than a 20% boost

[ringthree]

+18 dmg on top of 35 base is way more than a 20% boost

But, is it more than the difference between an at-best 200 Hand-to-hand skill and a two-hander/"occasionally attacks"/katanas DD? For us that is the real question, and I, personally, haven't seen the difference.

I think that no matter the opinions expressed here it is best to do what will improve your groups performance the most. So maybe personal testing is the best thing to do before deciding.

Outside of weapons, though, your main MNK should be getting a large majority of your starter chest cells. Abilities, subjob, all gear and any relevant stats. This is universal. Counterstance is simply devastating.

On a completely separate note: I don't know how I missed this until recently, but has it always been the case that a countered attack in Salvage ignores the stat reductions from the Pathos? Maybe I am just getting a lot of consistent crits on counters, but it just seems like every counter I get is like twice a normal punch. I haven't tested anything, just something I noticed. Am I crazy? LOL

[Churchill]

Counter generally does more damage for me but to answer your question, I don't know. For first floor mobs counter wrecks house, especially if you get a leg cell. I think the best I did was 14 in a row but I don't use CC's or have Spharai.

[aurik]

That's not what I was answering.

Mnks usually get both 1st and 2nd weapon in our group; we find it faster that way. It also serves to glue the hate on the 2 monks so that damage mitigation (naked-counterstance-hax, guard, phalanx2 lv3) is maximized.

Also since the mnks get all the first cells, it's more efficient in the long run to give them weapons. Because even if naked DD w/weapon + naked monk > naked DD + monk w/weapon, naked DD w/weapon + geared-up monk < naked DD + geared-up monk w/weapon

Sometimes I give 2nd weapon to war, depending on the zone. For example, war gets on its feet fast in Zhayolm, where they're guaranteed abilities, magic and subjob very soon.

[Neosutra]

+18 dmg on top of 35 base is way more than a 20% boost

Perhaps I just misunderstand H2H base damage, I thought the +18 damage was added to the "total" h2h base (i.e 35X2 = 70) yeilding you 88 base damage, split between 2 hands. 18/70 = 25% boost.

Or is it calculated as +18 to each hand O.o, yeilding 18X2 + 70 or 106 base damage per attack round (split between 2 fists).

Either way, i would still put forth that experience shows any other decent melee getting weapons > mnk getting 18 base increase. But I can definately see your logic in just gearing up the mnks for efficiency in hate and making sure they are geared for the NMs/Bosses, as there have been a few times one of our mnks didnt get a weapon (i.e not one weapon drop in the zone after clearing every qutrub).

Please correct my above % logic, as I know you are more familiar with that then I.

[Amastacia]

That's not what I was answering.

Mnks usually get both 1st and 2nd weapon in our group; we find it faster that way. It also serves to glue the hate on the 2 monks so that damage mitigation (naked-counterstance-hax, guard, phalanx2 lv3) is maximized.

Also since the mnks get all the first cells, it's more efficient in the long run to give them weapons. Because even if naked DD w/weapon + naked monk > naked DD + monk w/weapon, naked DD w/weapon + geared-up monk < naked DD + geared-up monk w/weapon

Sometimes I give 2nd weapon to war, depending on the zone. For example, war gets on its feet fast in Zhayolm, where they're guaranteed abilities, magic and subjob very soon.

Bolded the really critical part. Hitting harder is all well and good, minimizing healing requirements when MP is in short supply is much more important. I'm probably biased since I'm the designated first-magic/Phalanx II bitch, but still...

Life is good when you get 2 Prae and an Undu from the first chest so you have RDM+BRD, but when you get 1 Prae, no Spiss, it makes life a lot more interesting.

Give the MNKs weapons first and it concentrates all of the damage the party takes outside of weaksauce AoEs onto 1-2 people at most, and those people can be Hasted/Phalanx'd/Regen'd to minimize the MP costs over time of keeping them healthy. Level 3 Phalanx II mitigates way more than a Cure III's worth of damage over a 3 minute timespan for less than a Cure III's worth of MP, and a couple MNKs with weapons means you're not casting it more than once or twice.

Hell, with Aurik along on MNK, I can Haste/Phalanx him and then just kind of spot cure most of the time, he holds the vast majority of the hate all by himself and it makes the initial ramp-up into more magic/weapons much more pleasant.