Salvage - Arrapago Remnants - thread 2

[rithridan]

Oh, I never noticed it pop after the same Lamia. At the time I checked it at the usual sources there wasn't any concrete information on it unless it was buried somewhere in this thread. My group only recently started to farm a lot more on the first floor to be faster on the 2 floors that follow so we never really killed that many Lamia before.

Regardless, I still think its stupid that theres a mob on the first floor that can do a TP move for 1k single target (and probably 1k AoE spread over targets) without doing something special to it (unlike rageZiz). I hope I can still convince my group its worth it *glares at a certain taru I'm sure will read this*.

[Kaia]

I hope I can still convince my group its worth it.

It's worth it if the extra time spent killing the cactuar doesn't make you miss any other NMs. If there's a choice between cactuar + 6 NMs + boss, or no cactuar + 7/8 NMs + boss, I'd choose the 2nd option in a heartbeat. But if you can fit the cactaur in without sacrificing any other NMs, then of course there's no reason not to kill the cactuar.

[augus]

First time i post... so i apologize if this reply do not belongs here.

My social ls is just starting to do salvage again an we will be PRIMAIRLY FARMING 35s, but i just can't figure the best setup we can do with the jobs we have for arrapago remants, these are our currents jobs:

ME: mnk = whm = blm
P1: blu (full Homan) > smn = sam
P2: rdm* > pld > blu
P3: drk* > rdm > bst = blm
P4: brd* = rdm* = blm*, = nin* > bst > thf
P5: mnk* (BB) > sam* > brd* > nin
P6: rdm* > war = mnk = pld


Notes:
Everyone has all their available subjob combos
* Fully or most fully merited in the job cathegory
= > means the comparison on the gears from the left job to the right meaning that from left to right is better to worst

All the members have gear around average: mnks have byakko haidates, sams have haguns and soboro, etc, etc,

We have experience as team since we climbed 3 times nyzul isle, 2 before update on multiple floors; and have cleared all the missions up to wotg and almost all of us on 1st leutenant in the assault rank

Any workable setup would be apreciatted and if you can give us some hints on cell distribution among members and floors to make a smoth way up to archaic chariot and kiling all the Qiqirn and the the Bhoot or Psyflayers

Thank you and sorry for bad wording.. english is not my primary language

[fishstix]

ME: mnk = whm = blm
P1: blu (full Homan) > smn = sam
P2: rdm* > pld > blu
P3: drk* > rdm > bst = blm
P4: brd* = rdm* = blm*, = nin* > bst > thf
P5: mnk* (BB) > sam* > brd* > nin
P6: rdm* > war = mnk = pld

P4 NEEDS to be thf, forcing P5 to be bard. Other than that, you can mix and match, change things up to any basic setup, based on who wants to come what job. Personally, we dont use blu's, but I hear they're good for stunning. For your setup, I'd pick:

You: mnk (if you're leading the run)
P1: sam
P2: rdm
P3: blm
P4: thf
P5: brd
P6: mnk

Some people dont like blms in salvage, but I do! Alternatively, he can come drk for extra DD, or rdm for extra healing, occasional nuking. If you can pick up another thf, or have someone in your group level, that'd help things out, getting P5 to come BB mnk and P4 brd.

With this setup for cells, I'd do:
Weapon: thf - sam, mnk mnk rdm brd blm
JA: mnk mnk sam thf rdm brd blm (iffy depending on droprate, you want steal for the 2F+)
Magic: rdm brd blm mnk mnk sam thf
SJ: rdm mnk mnk brd sam thf

Also note that it seems you have a solid group for doing everything in the zone, for every zone.

[Neosutra]

Thats still alot of weapons to get in Arrapoga, that can quite frequently leave you with 0-1 weapon drops even after clearing all the qutrub. Arrapogga can be full cleared with time to spare with 6-7 people.

I would even say dropping a melee and doing:

Brd, Thf, rdm, mnk, sam, blm would be viable, over mnk mnk sam, due to needed 1 less weapon and adding some flexibility that blm adds to arrapoga. (This is the only zone I actually like to take a blm due to stunning Perdition, Nuking QQA/TH, and crowd control/nukes on the 6th floor.)

But then again, swapping that blm for another brd would probably work even better Q.Q.

[ringthree]

ME: mnk = whm = blm
P1: blu (full Homan) > smn = sam
P2: rdm* > pld > blu
P3: drk* > rdm > bst = blm
P4: brd* = rdm* = blm*, = nin* > bst > thf
P5: mnk* (BB) > sam* > brd* > nin
P6: rdm* > war = mnk = pld

You are going to get a different answer to this from everyone you ask, but if you were asking me, I would go with the following:

You: WHM
P1: SAM or BLU
P2: RDM
P3: DRK
P4: THF
P5: BRD
P6: WAR

That gives you my standard issue Salvage party:
DD1: WAR
DD2: DRK
DD3: SAM or BLU
THF
RDM
WHM
BRD

We generally do cell distribution in that order, with obvious exceptions in the cases they are needed.

I would not suggest going without the normal RDM, WHM, BRD mage set up even if just farming 35 until you are confident that everyone in the party knows what they are doing all the time.

I will probably get yelled at because everyone else is super elite and doesn't need an extra healer, but if you are newer or if you have newer members to Salvage it's better to be safe than sorry. Especially because there are only so many NM's you can kill and your group should be fine killing them all as is, so there is no need for more damage over a more stable and easier to work with group.

I am one of the people that doesn't like BLM's in Salvage. I am not saying they are bad or that other people can't use them, but I just find them less useful than other jobs usually.

[Neosutra]

Fuck that, make your mage learn to be the solo healer. Nothing is as a better teacher than experience. I tend to die more actually if we have 2 healers... Nothing is worse than people thinking someone else will do their job, make that cure, do that erase. People play better when they dont have someone to fall back on.

[Crizto]

The only zone I like to have a BLM in is Bhaflau. If I can ever have my BLM come as melee instead I'd rather have that for Arra.

[Kaia]

I bring a BLM whenever the setup allows it. Sleepga and Sleepga2 make BRDs some happy campers. Being able to pop Gyro Gear and/or Gears with two gigantic pulls instead of a bunch of little pulls makes things go sooo much faster. Or even better... a BLM with phalanx2 holding 10+ mobs while clearing 3Fs in Zhayolm is oodles of fun.

[ringthree]

Fuck that, make your mage learn to be the solo healer. Nothing is as a better teacher than experience. I tend to die more actually if we have 2 healers... Nothing is worse than people thinking someone else will do their job, make that cure, do that erase. People play better when they dont have someone to fall back on.

That may work for your group, but I would never suggest it to a newer group or a group that was trying something new or had newer members.

It's better to be safe than sorry, I say.

Maybe you just have had bad mages, or maybe you don't split your mages responsibilities or maybe it's something else, but when we do farming runs with 6, we usually drop the BRD instead of the WHM. It's just much safer, fewer accidental deaths, less down time, etc. We have cleared the 6th floor with WAR, MNK, DRG, THF, RDM, WHM with plenty of time left so it's not like a BRD is required for any of the farming runs either. But that is just my group, and I wouldn't make that suggestion to someone else's group, especially someone trying something new.

In the end, WHM, RDM, BRD is the most reliable and safest approach to start with, then people can adjust from there to suit their needs.

[Darkhelmet]

That may work for your group, but I would never suggest it to a newer group or a group that was trying something new or had newer members.

It's better to be safe than sorry, I say.

Maybe you just have had bad mages, or maybe you don't split your mages responsibilities or maybe it's something else, but when we do farming runs with 6, we usually drop the BRD instead of the WHM. It's just much safer, fewer accidental deaths, less down time, etc. We have cleared the 6th floor with WAR, MNK, DRG, THF, RDM, WHM with plenty of time left so it's not like a BRD is required for any of the farming runs either. But that is just my group, and I wouldn't make that suggestion to someone else's group, especially someone trying something new.

In the end, WHM, RDM, BRD is the most reliable and safest approach to start with, then people can adjust from there to suit their needs.

This seems to be the voice of reason. Having 4 melees and only 1 healer/haster/eraser can get pretty rough and cause some significant downtime, especially to a group that's new.

This is pretty standard and safe:

DD
DD
THF
RDM
WHM
BRD

BLM can be nice to have as a 7th, because they do not need BRD buffs to be effective at their job, and they can erase/*na themselves... provided you get enough subjobs.

To each his own.

[mdkuser]

The only reason you wanna have 2 healers is if you do a boss. IF you dont, one rdm+ brd is overkill healing.

[Uzor]

I've always said people learn best if you rely on them and trust they can do their job flawless. If they mess up then, so be it. Lesson learned, an they'll see how important doing their job right is.

If they have others to rely on, they can always blame others, even if they don't mention it. If they are the only one, they know they messed up, will feel bad, and try to avoid it for next time. Unless they are in the 10% of the population with the stupid gene and thus have a hard time learning from their mistakes.

Better safe than sorry work in certain situations. Like, say, leaving 10 min for boss in Bhaflau, even if you can kill it in 3 min, just in case something unexpected happens.

It really depends on how much you trust your members. As you say you've done nyzul etc. with them before, I assume you know how eachother play and have some kind of trust. As long as communication work, one or two healers won't matter.

[ringthree]

That reasoning may work for you, but I certainly would never suggest it to other people.

I do Salvage with rather competent friends, and I don't know about you but I just don't think there is a need to put other people into such a situation, when it is completely unnecessary.

If there was some benefit to going with 5 DD and 1 healer then I would say that your suggest would make sense. But in Salvage there are only so many NM's you can kill, and if you can kill them in time with either group set then taking the more safe route is the only sane option.

Taking risks for absolutely no reason is anti-logical. Taking less healing to achieve the same goals that can be achieved with a more balanced group makes no sense at all.

It has nothing at all to do with trust, it has much more to do with luck and time taken. With one healer, a couple AoE TP moves can cause several dead players without it being anyone's fault at all. It will also likely require time to rest for MP, which completely defeats the point of taking more DD in the first place. In fact, making it about "trust" and expecting people to play "perfectly" all the time achieves nothing more than can be achieved otherwise and it only risks you looking like a douche and pissing off everyone else that you do Salvage with. Now, you may have a group that can take that, but I would say that there is a rather large group of very competent players that would tell you to go fuck yourself with that kind of attitude. Or maybe not... :/ (Sometimes I wonder how many people that play this game actually care about the other people they play with.)

In fact, I think it's quite... well... idiotic to say that you assume that everyone will do their jobs flawlessly all the time. It is not an if, but when someone screws up, or more likely bad luck happens. I am not doing Salvage to teach people "lessons", I do it to get gear. Putting yourself in the best possible position to get that gear should be the goal of any leader in Salvage.

As I have said, this may work for you but it is definitely not something I would suggest to someone newer to Salvage or starting something new. Why take unnecessary risks when it achieves absolutely nothing and just risks alienating the people that you rely on to do Salvage?

[Neosutra]

Opening that spot up to another DD or brd to increase your kill speed and make more farming possible isnt "for no reason". You are trivializing the effects of giving yourself an extra 5-15 minutes from the extra damage. If they want to really get everything done in a zone, they are more likely to get it done with the proper damage, so they will need to move to that system some day. Why not make them learn now? Sure their first few runs may be a bit painful, but they will learn. Like I said before, I die more when I have 2 healers simply due to people thinking the other person will do their job.

If someone cant step up and do their job and truly handle a spot of responsibility, dont bring them to salvage. Thats the reason I still love salvage, it seperates the good players from the people that just play.

[Ultimagi]

It definately separates the Samurais who 6-step Darkness to pretty much solo a Chariot from the ones who agro an entire room accidentally and train them to the rest of the party crying for help.

[Uzor]

I'm not suggesting going with 1 healer and 5 DD's. I said, as they are mainly going for the 35 NM's, going with a RDM healer and replacing the WHM with a BRD would probably speed up their average time per floor more then taking a WHM over a BRD.

Even as a WHM, Sanction + body + ring + ballad gives me 8/tick Refresh, which is more then enough for keeping everyone alive. With SCH sub and ability (giving me basically 10/tick) as well as access to Penury and Light Arts, I can solo-heal even on bosses, even though I don't have access to Convert.

A RDM would have 10/tick Refresh without head, 11/tick with head, as well as access to Convert, which really is more then enough for hasting and healing everyone.

And my post wasn't meant as a "Suit yourself, you fucked up and now you have to pay the price". My point was that I've always considered trusting people can do their job right is usually beneficial, over saying "Let's take some extra healing just in case you fuck up". If they fuck up, big deal, they're only human, and they'll probably try to avoid doing the same mistake next time as they'll probably feel bad about it. People learn best from mistakes. Trusting in people's abilities and that they can play their job flawlessly is just a courtesy, instead of assuming everyone will fuck up all the time and bringing along "precautions" that might cause unnecessary slow downs isn't something I would consider beneficial to the group as a whole.

I'm not saying you should never bring 2 healers. I do too with my group, but we do bosses almost every run too, and bosses are generally faster with 2 healers then with one. Wit hone healer on bosses, the melees might have to turn to allow the healer to recover MP if you get unlucky with TP moves (yhellothardiscoid). In pure 35 runs though, two healers is uneccesary, and I find myself always having close to full MP, even though I heal and haste everyone as WHM, with the RDM being out of camp pulling most of the time (as BRD is dualboxed).

As Salvage is best done with few people, having players that slack off and go afk all of the time like in Dynamis, they will slow the run down anyway. If they can't pull their weight, they're better of not doing Salvage. Which is why I chose to lead the way I do. I know mistakes do happen, its only human, and it doesn't really matter. Unless it keeps happening, or they do things that obviously are not mistakes, like going afk in the middle of the run.

[ringthree]

Opening that spot up to another DD or brd to increase your kill speed and make more farming possible isnt "for no reason". You are trivializing the effects of giving yourself an extra 5-15 minutes from the extra damage. If they want to really get everything done in a zone, they are more likely to get it done with the proper damage, so they will need to move to that system some day. Why not make them learn now? Sure their first few runs may be a bit painful, but they will learn. Like I said before, I die more when I have 2 healers simply due to people thinking the other person will do their job.

If someone cant step up and do their job and truly handle a spot of responsibility, dont bring them to salvage. Thats the reason I still love salvage, it seperates the good players from the people that just play.

If they can't get through with either group then they still have learning to do. Are you actually suggesting that a new group should go with a more difficult party set up that will be completely unnecessary once they learn the zone just so they can get through the zone faster now when they still don't know the zone well and in all likelihood struggle with it more than later.

Look, a good group that has full knowledge of Salvage can easily clear all the zones with two DD's, THF, RDM, WHM, BRD. This is a standard group. Time will make no difference in how a group like this performs, so killing faster is completely irrelevant.

For a newer group, having only one mage is a risk to everyone, DD's are much more likely to die, time will have to be taken for resting MP. In fact, for a newer group, taking 1 more DD which requires more healing in all likelihood will take more time to clear a zone than one that would not need to stop for MP.

Neo, as you already know, you have your own way of looking at things, and even though you think it is always correct, it really doesn't apply to everyone. It's just like your position on blink tanking, it may work for you, but it is definitely not universal because it doesn't consider the position of the people to which you are trying to appeal. In this case, it may work for you, but for newer players, and for (I believe) a large majority of players that do Salvage, it is a bad suggestion.

I never really understood the dire need for people to do things as fast as possible if it increases risk. There are only so many NM in each Salvage zone, there is only so much you can do. Once you can do that, you should be looking to minimize risk because increasing speed does absolutely nothing to increase you possible achievements. It's a simple cost benefit analysis.

What you guys are suggesting is literally anti-logical. It may work for you, but it is horrible advice to give to someone else that is just starting out. If you are dying with two healers more than 1, then man, that has something to do with your healers, not the fact that 1 healer is somehow better than 2. Maybe this is the case for you guys, but it kind of contradicts your notion that Salvage "makes better players", doesn't it? If you are playing with good players, then you should be getting twice the available cures, if this isn't the case, then doesn't that prove that the person who isn't curing is the problem and not the set up? Like I said, it's anti-logical.

Anyway, this notion that Salvage is some sort of crucible that separates the men from the boys and other such nonsense is just that, nonsense. Salvage is all about repetition and knowing what to expect and when, and then after that, at best, it is just a gear check. Hell, the only thing it really "trains" people to do is how to pass efficiently! Once you learn how to run through the zones, you are just waiting for drops. It's not brain surgery.

Sorry about the book.

[Uzor]

Yes, Salvage is about balance. Balancing efficiency, time and safety etc. etc.

I would agree with you if they were a completely new group or a shout group. And by new I mean people that have never done stuff together, but as he mentioned earlier, they've done both Assault, missions (I assume?) and Nyzul, the latter being rather similar to Salvage.

[ringthree]

I'm not suggesting going with 1 healer and 5 DD's. I said, as they are mainly going for the 35 NM's, going with a RDM healer and replacing the WHM with a BRD would probably speed up their average time per floor more then taking a WHM over a BRD.

Even as a WHM, Sanction + body + ring + ballad gives me 8/tick Refresh, which is more then enough for keeping everyone alive. With SCH sub and ability (giving me basically 10/tick) as well as access to Penury and Light Arts, I can solo-heal even on bosses, even though I don't have access to Convert.

A RDM would have 10/tick Refresh without head, 11/tick with head, as well as access to Convert, which really is more then enough for hasting and healing everyone.

And my post wasn't meant as a "Suit yourself, you fucked up and now you have to pay the price". My point was that I've always considered trusting people can do their job right is usually beneficial, over saying "Let's take some extra healing just in case you fuck up". If they fuck up, big deal, they're only human, and they'll probably try to avoid doing the same mistake next time as they'll probably feel bad about it. People learn best from mistakes. Trusting in people's abilities and that they can play their job flawlessly is just a courtesy, instead of assuming everyone will fuck up all the time and bringing along "precautions" that might cause unnecessary slow downs isn't something I would consider beneficial to the group as a whole.

I'm not saying you should never bring 2 healers. I do too with my group, but we do bosses almost every run too, and bosses are generally faster with 2 healers then with one. Wit hone healer on bosses, the melees might have to turn to allow the healer to recover MP if you get unlucky with TP moves (yhellothardiscoid). In pure 35 runs though, two healers is uneccesary, and I find myself always having close to full MP, even though I heal and haste everyone as WHM, with the RDM being out of camp pulling most of the time (as BRD is dualboxed).

As Salvage is best done with few people, having players that slack off and go afk all of the time like in Dynamis, they will slow the run down anyway. If they can't pull their weight, they're better of not doing Salvage. Which is why I chose to lead the way I do. I know mistakes do happen, its only human, and it doesn't really matter. Unless it keeps happening, or they do things that obviously are not mistakes, like going afk in the middle of the run.

Ok, I think we are a little closer than your first explanation, but I think you kind of missed the issue at hand to start off.

I am suggesting that you shouldn't put yourself in a spot where you are making a decision between a WHM and a BRD. It's better to take both than to take another DD if that is the consideration.

Look at mdkusers comment for example:

The only reason you wanna have 2 healers is if you do a boss. IF you dont, one rdm+ brd is overkill healing.

The problem is that if you aren't doing a boss then trading off a healer for a DD is overkill on damage. 2 good DD, THF, RDM, WHM and BRD can clear all zones easily, more DD is just wasted time at the end. If you need the extra DD to clear any of the zones NMs so much that you are willing to give up extra healing for it, then you need to be looking at your DD more critically.