Salvage - Arrapago Remnants - thread 2

[ringthree]

Yes, Salvage is about balance. Balancing efficiency, time and safety etc. etc.

I would agree with you if they were a completely new group or a shout group. And by new I mean people that have never done stuff together, but as he mentioned earlier, they've done both Assault, missions (I assume?) and Nyzul, the latter being rather similar to Salvage.

I kind of answered this in my response to Neo, but Salvage isn't really even about working together. It's first of all a test in learning how to pass. Then it's more about knowing what is coming through repetition and rote memorization, and then after that it is a bit of a gear check.

Once you get to the point where you can kill all the NM in a zone, then there is no reason to bring more DD. At that point, increased speed doesn't matter at all, and the only thing you can do to improve performance is to increase safety. I would suggest that before that point it would actually be slower to bring another DD (for a group that is still learning the zones) because it would require more time for resting MP and dealing with potential death. If your mages don't heal properly when you have two of them, then that is more of a personal problem than anything else.

[Uzor]

Most new shells can't do all NM's even if they skip boss though, as they haven't learned what cells they need from each floor for the different areas etc. For experienced shells, going with the normal group and skipping the boss, time won't really matter as they'll likely have plenty of time either way, so time won't be an issue. But for a new group focused only on NM's, time might be an issue, more so then healing. I know my shell had a hard time hitting all NM's when we first started out, even though we go with the same people and the same set up, simply because we weren't used to Salvage then.

As for your last response, once you can hit all NM's in a zone, there's still ways to speed up and improve in order to hit all NM's + boss. Once you can do that, then there is no reason to improve your speed more. Well, it depends on how you look at it though. If you can hit all NM's + boss with 1 min left at the end, that is pushing it awfully close, and you might want to improve further in order to have extra time over at the end, just in case everything don't go as you plan.

But as they, from my understanding, mainly aim to go after the 35's, the last part don't apply to them. So yeah.

[ringthree]

I think the only place we part is on the fact of whether having 1 mage will increase or decrease the speed of a new group. I believe it will dramatically decrease the pace for them. A newer group will be more likely to link, more likely to burn unnecessary MP, less likely to know when is a good time to rest for MP, less likely to know how to deal with certain NMs, and more likely to let people die.

Your argument is simple, more DD = things die faster. My argument is more nuanced. More healing lets your mages do the things that increase speed in other areas. More haste being cast, more Dia, more enfeebles for NMs, no downtime, no deaths, more stability for new people to get there feet under them and learn the zones, which is the real way to increase the speed of the runs.

If the goal is to get to the point where you will be able to do all of the zones NMs with a normal balanced group, them learning the zone is the most important aspect. If there is something that I could have told myself before starting to do Salvage, it is this one thing: Don't force it.

[Uzor]

Naw, you suggested you'd rather replace the BRD with a WHM, unless I misunderstood you, but my point was to replace the WHM with a BRD.

DD DD DD THF RDM BRD > DD DD DD THF RDM WHM

is my point. Same amount of DD's, but a buffer instead of a healer.

[Neosutra]

Jesus christ you people need to go back to work. I come back to my desk and there are 7 counter arguments.

To each their own Ringthree, but in my group, you perform to standard, learn from your mistakes, or get the fuck out. I have no patience for people that cant handle doing their job right, and have no sympathy for people that dont learn quickly. Then again ive kicked about 120 people from my salvage group.

[ringthree]

Naw, you suggested you'd rather replace the BRD with a WHM, unless I misunderstood you, but my point was to replace the WHM with a BRD.

DD DD DD THF RDM BRD > DD DD DD THF RDM WHM

is my point. Same amount of DD's, but a buffer instead of a healer.

Ahh, well, then this argument is much more esoteric that necessary. That is a much more personal preference decision (we still lean toward WHM over BRD, because the BRD is an unnecessary luxury), and I think we both agree that neither are optimal.

I thought you were agreeing with Neo, and kind of lumped both together in my mind.

[ringthree]

Jesus christ you people need to go back to work. I come back to my desk and there are 7 counter arguments.

To each their own Ringthree, but in my group, you perform to standard, learn from your mistakes, or get the fuck out. I have no patience for people that cant handle doing their job right, and have no sympathy for people that dont learn quickly. Then again ive kicked about 120 people from my salvage group.

Well, no one said you weren't a dick. Like I said, I wish I would have just chilled out in Salvage, and not been a dick to people back when I started. People would have learned faster and I would have been much less frustrated.

I think we are all decent at running Salvage, but we all pale in comparison to Celestria, who is both patient and demanding without being rude at all. She is the person that I learned from to perfect Salvage, and she also taught me that you don't have to be a total douche to run a Salvage group.

[pchan]

In the end, WHM, RDM, BRD is the most reliable and safest approach to start with, then people can adjust from there to suit their needs.

100% agree. The rdm is not here to cure, he pulls open door and all the shit that needs be done quickly. The brd can't do all that he needs to bufff melees. When I go rdm I always tell the brd that I prefer march than ballad.

[ringthree]

100% agree. The rdm is not here to cure, he pulls open door and all the shit that needs be done quickly. The brd can't do all that he needs to bufff melees. When I go rdm I always tell the brd that I prefer march than ballad.

Good note here too! Our magic order is always RDM, WHM, BRD, and our BRD pulls, open doors, zoning up, pretty much do everything until they get magic. But it applies the same no matter your magic order, whoever gets magic last pulls the first floor in most zones. And then they share responsibilities with the THF for the rest.

[Neosutra]

I dont have to be strict to run salvage...

I dont have to be strict to run salvage.....

I dont have to... Fuck that Q.Q. I cant do it. If a player is incapable of following simple instructions (even my dog can do that), they dont need to do salvage. I dont care if its their first run or their 100th, if you dont listen, you lose your pearl.

Im not like that in other events, but the 120th time someone aggroed the god damned gear room when I specifically told them to NOT pass me made me lose my mind a bit. Its just easier for me to weed out the retarded people and not have to deal with them in future runs.

[ringthree]

I dont have to be strict to run salvage...

I dont have to be strict to run salvage.....

I dont have to... Fuck that Q.Q. I cant do it. If a player is incapable of following simple instructions (even my dog can do that), they dont need to do salvage. I dont care if its their first run or their 100th, if you dont listen, you lose your pearl.

Im not like that in other events, but the 120th time someone aggroed the god damned gear room when I specifically told them to NOT pass me made me lose my mind a bit. Its just easier for me to weed out the retarded people and not have to deal with them in future runs.

/comfort Neo.

I would suggest going on a run with another competent group where you are not the leader. You get a great perspective on things. And that is really what you are missing; perspective. That is how I learned to stop freaking out all the time.

I still freak out from time to time, but people mostly joke me about it now, because they know what they are doing and know that I would inevitably complain about something. LOL

[Neosutra]

You assume im not the same way, and it isnt a joke with my group as well. Ive gone with many runs with other groups, as I am always working to improve our strats. I dont freak out half as much as I used too, but I still have high standards, and dont plan on lowering them any time soon.

Hell, I even do "training" runs, where we dont do full clears, but take less experienced members through zones and show them what is expected at each part, so they can learn and not be blind sided when we go full speed.

I will just always expect 100% from my members at all times, because I expect the same from myself. Hell, Ive kicked my own wife from the LS 4 times for not performing to standard in salvage >.>

[Uzor]

How is it kicking her if she's still let back in? <.<;

Its more like a temporary leave!

[ringthree]

You assume im not the same way, and it isnt a joke with my group as well. Ive gone with many runs with other groups, as I am always working to improve our strats. I dont freak out half as much as I used too, but I still have high standards, and dont plan on lowering them any time soon.

Hell, I even do "training" runs, where we dont do full clears, but take less experienced members through zones and show them what is expected at each part, so they can learn and not be blind sided when we go full speed.

I will just always expect 100% from my members at all times, because I expect the same from myself. Hell, Ive kicked my own wife from the LS 4 times for not performing to standard in salvage >.>

I don't think I am making much of an assumption when I say you are bat-shit crazy. LOL

[Neosutra]

She has access to my account and keeps repearling herself Q.Q.

That and vagina.

And @ Ringthree:

Cant argue with that crazy comment much... Physicist + Army commander = OCD and high expectations on ability and intelligence.

But that isnt always a bad thing. Not that im perfect, and I do often wish I could be a bit more lax. I do try my best however, and thats all I can do.

[Uzor]

The power of women compels you.

[augus]

First of all, thank you for al your feedback, i tried to read all the post before going to salvage and this was our result:

we went mnk mnk sam rdm brd rdm thf it was a pretty smoth run, gave subjob to rdm and ja to main tank (me), then killed first 3 qiqirns, but we didn't get a 2nd ja until 4th floor for thf (so no subjob steal) and wiped miserably to the bhoot nm without shadows, after an unstunned blizzaga 3 that took half hp of melee and then just double crited me for 400 each to make me eat dirt and proceeded to rape everyone

And we were kicked out before he went out of range to rerase safe from blood aggro

Any tips to kill that NM apart from stayng away of him with out shadows would be apprecited

Thank you

[mackerel]

First of all, thank you for al your feedback, i tried to read all the post before going to salvage and this was our result:

we went mnk mnk sam rdm brd rdm thf it was a pretty smoth run, gave subjob to rdm and ja to main tank (me), then killed first 3 qiqirns, but we didn't get a 2nd ja until 4th floor for thf (so no subjob steal) and wiped miserably to the bhoot nm without shadows, after an unstunned blizzaga 3 that took half hp of melee and then just double crited me for 400 each to make me eat dirt and proceeded to rape everyone

And we were kicked out before he went out of range to rerase safe from blood aggro

Any tips to kill that NM apart from stayng away of him with out shadows would be apprecited

Thank you

Shoulder Tackle, Tachi: Hobaku, give the THF an opacus cell so you have a shot at subjobs, and kill 3-6 Archaic Gear on the 4th floor before going near the bhoot without shadows. If you don't have 2 people with shadows after clearing all the gears on floor 4, write off the bhoot and hit it on the next run. As you've noticed, the bhoot takes ages to wander home after wiping your party. In the event of a wipe, the last man standing should die near the bhoot's spawn so maybe someone can reraise. But seriously, use stun WS on Blizzaga III and Perdition.

[Terrestrialrage]

Bhoot is a huge pain in the ass, however, that being said:

on 4F there are single gears opposite the portal room, which drop subs. I like to farm one for the main Mnk so he can tank Bhoot legitimately. Also, for Bhoot, i cannot sing enough praises for Whm on him. Banish 3 turns a 6-8min fight into a 2-3min fight. Keep a Blm on Perdition patrol, the Mnk who doesnt have sub i have hold TP for Shoulder Tackle on Blizzaga. Easy to kill if you can keep him controlled. Hope this helps!

[rithridan]

As mentioned before, you can get a couple of dupli(subjob) and stratus(legs/feet) cells on 4F from the 5-6 gears that are there. Also try to at least be well farmed before you hit the 4th floor. I found that since we are farming more on the first floor the floors afterwards become a lot easier and faster. Even with pretty crappy drops on 1F we more often then not have both our tanks/dds with humi(hp) cells. With those, Shell4/5, Barbliz and Ice carol even the bhoot NM will be hardpressed to kill your tanks with blizga3 unless your mages are slacking. Nothing is worse then using a stun WS on blizga3 only to have it Perdition right after.