Haste Formula

[Quixon]

I tried searching around but I couldn't find a thread on this specifically.

Can anyone outline the Haste Formula. I'm basically trying to get the point across to a few LS members that you need to stack Haste in order to achieve the benefits from it. I know how it works in my head but I can't put it into words really lol.

Thanks in advance

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

It simply reduces the delay of your weapon by a given percentage. If you have speed belt + walhara turban you get an 11% delay reduction for example. However, at higher numbers this has a greater effect because the actual increase in damage over time due to haste is (1/(1-total haste) - 1)x100% . So if you have 50% haste you get a 100% increase in rate of attack, not 50%. Another example is 0 -> 10% haste is a 11.1% increase in attack rate but the same 10% increase in haste, if you were at 50% haste to begin with, is a 25% increase in attack rate. The most extreme (but impossible due to the haste cap) example is if you had 99% haste then just a 1% haste increase would mean you have an infinite rate of attack.

That is why haste gets much better as you stack more.

[Octavious]

If memory serves, being RDM/BLM/WHM 75 I have a hard time memorizing the exact setup but, I believe a strategy for NIN is to strive for a haste setup that would cap out your Haste+% for Gear, allowing a BRD & RDMorWHM to give a peusdo-hundred fists style of attack, along with greatly helping your Utsusemi. I keep thinking of doing those Lv1 Assaults, with my Ninja friend hitting them beastly fast. Anyone able to clarify my statement, I don't feel i'm doing it justice.

[Attila]

If memory serves, being RDM/BLM/WHM 75 I have a hard time memorizing the exact setup but, I believe a strategy for NIN is to strive for a haste setup that would cap out your Haste+% for Gear, allowing a BRD & RDMorWHM to give a peusdo-hundred fists style of attack, along with greatly helping your Utsusemi. I keep thinking of doing those Lv1 Assaults, with my Ninja friend hitting them beastly fast. Anyone able to clarify my statement, I don't feel i'm doing it justice.

ORLY?

You've been CAUGHT!

[Octavious]

lol, whats even more funny about this statement Attila, is that "You've been CAUGHT!" is something they do down here @ NAtionwide to congratulate employees for good things they do. IE: You've been caught - doing something good, lol it's hilarious...you made me think a that. And dude RDM/BLM/WHM are my subjobs is what I meant damnit, lol. I am at work so I type my responses quick & stealthfully as to not be discovered :3

[Attila]

rofl

[Octavious]

lol, someone looked into the teamspace and is like BlueGartr? I thought we had those forums blocked, meaning naked pictures or something. "IE Blue Gartr" lol. I'm like uh...it's a website i discuss programming on >.> *dodges bullet*



but anyway, about the haste forumla, +25% is gear cap jah?

[Amele]

25% gear cap.

hypothesized 25% per status effect cap (but to my knowledge no single effect could potentially go above this; bards feel free to correct this if you know that SV+V.March goes higher than 25)

50% cap on total recast reduction (haste + fast cast)

~70% cap on melee attack speed reduction.

[moguri]

hypothesized 25% per status effect cap (but to my knowledge no single effect could potentially go above this; bards feel free to correct this if you know that SV+V.March goes higher than 25)

VMarch= 11%, SV = 22%, just fyi

[Amele]

yeah, I was pretty sure it was in the area of 20%ish but didn't have access to a site with the exact numbers (I'm at work) and don't play bard myself, so I didn't want to state it as fact without being sure thanks for the info though - I won't forget it now lol

[divisortheory]

I tried searching around but I couldn't find a thread on this specifically.

Can anyone outline the Haste Formula. I'm basically trying to get the point across to a few LS members that you need to stack Haste in order to achieve the benefits from it. I know how it works in my head but I can't put it into words really lol.

Thanks in advance

You actually don't have the stack haste to achieve the benefit from it.

Example:

Original Weapon Delay = 500

Haste +3% -> New Weapon Delay = 485
Haste +6% -> New Weapon Delay = 470
Haste +9% -> New Weapon Delay = 455
Haste +12% -> New Weapon Delay = 440
Haste +15% -> New Weapon Delay = 425

In each case, we incremented by exactly +3%, and weapon delay was reduced by exactly 15.

Yea, +15% owns a lot more than +3%, but the gain is linear, not exponential.

However, saying that "you have to stack it to achieve the maximum benefit" is saying that the same percentage of haste is more effective if you already have a lot of haste backing it, which is simply not true.

Edit: I think the reason people give you different answers about this (as evidenced by this thread) is because of the nature of percentages. For example, you could look at the above example and say "well going from 0->3 was a 3% gain (15/500 = .03), but going from 12->15 was a 3.4% gain (15/440 = .034)". the important thing is that going from 0 to 15 is a 15% gain (75 / 500), just like going from 0 to 18 is an 18% gain.

[Loren]

Yea, +15% owns a lot more than +3%, but the gain is linear, not exponential.

Delay is a divisor though. Decreasing a divisor = steepening curve. Plot (1 / (1 - x)) where x is your haste expressed a decimal (e.g. 0.25 for 25%). It's the same reason that abilities to reduce enemy Defense are best when stacked.

[Amele]

Div: the quantity of the delay reduction vs. original weapon delay for a given haste amount is linear, yes.

however, the quantity of the delay reduction vs. current weapon delay when changing your haste amount is not linear (slope rises as haste increases)

this is to say, if you are swinging at 90% delay and then add 5% more haste, you are now swinging 6%~ faster than you were prior to the 5% haste.

the inverse is true for accuracy: +5 accuracy is a significant gain in dot at low hit rate, (2.5% at 50% hit rate is a relative improvement of 5%, whereas 2.5% at 90% hit rate is only a relative improvement of ~2.7% accuracy). both are 'linear' in the absolute scale, but have non-linear effect on performance.

[divisortheory]

Yea, +15% owns a lot more than +3%, but the gain is linear, not exponential.

Delay is a divisor though.

Hmm, seems I was doing everything in time/damage. Ooops :D Should have done it in terms of damage/time (swings per second or something). That changes things

With a weapon D of 1,000 you get

Haste 0% = (60 / 1,000) x 3,600 = 216 swings per hour.
Haste 10% = (60 / 900) x 3,600 = 240 swings per hour. (11.1% faster)
Haste 20% = (60 / 800) x 3,600 = 270 swings per hour. (25% faster)
Haste 30% = (60 / 700) x 3,600 = 308 swings per hour. (42% faster)

I concede

[LinktheDeme]

25% gear cap.

hypothesized 25% per status effect cap (but to my knowledge no single effect could potentially go above this; bards feel free to correct this if you know that SV+V.March goes higher than 25)

50% cap on total recast reduction (haste + fast cast)

~70% cap on melee attack speed reduction.

This doesn't apply to dual wield right?

edit: also anyone know the exact % of haste to go 70% faster then? (I can't find my calculator ; ; )

[cassiraa]

Not directly what the op asked, but:

Dual Wield plays off of Haste. 5% Dual Wield + 5% Haste = roughly 10% Attack Speed Bonus.

However Dual Wield lowers your TP proportionately to how much it increases your attack speed, so when given even choices [NIN AFv2 Vs. Haidate, dex notwithstanding], Haste is better.


Unless I'm mistaken, ~70% cap on melee attack speed reduction includes dual wield bonuses, but I don't have the tests on hand, they were on the OLD old BG site [pre WoW split]

[sugo]

Not directly what the op asked, but:

Dual Wield plays off of Haste. 5% Dual Wield + 5% Haste = roughly 10% Attack Speed Bonus.

However Dual Wield lowers your TP proportionately to how much it increases your attack speed, so when given even choices [NIN AFv2 Vs. Haidate, dex notwithstanding], Haste is better.


Unless I'm mistaken, ~70% cap on melee attack speed reduction includes dual wield bonuses, but I don't have the tests on hand, they were on the OLD old BG site [pre WoW split]

Does it mean a NIN with capped dual wield (35%), capped haste gear (25%) won't have full benefit from Haste spell (15%) + dual March(15%) ?

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

Yea, +15% owns a lot more than +3%, but the gain is linear, not exponential.

Delay is a divisor though.

Hmm, seems I was doing everything in time/damage. Ooops :D Should have done it in terms of damage/time (swings per second or something). That changes things

With a weapon D of 1,000 you get

Haste 0% = (60 / 1,000) x 3,600 = 216 swings per hour.
Haste 10% = (60 / 900) x 3,600 = 240 swings per hour. (11.1% faster)
Haste 20% = (60 / 800) x 3,600 = 270 swings per hour. (25% faster)
Haste 30% = (60 / 700) x 3,600 = 308 swings per hour. (42% faster)

I concede

You could have just read my damn post... :/

[aurik]

No.

[Quixon]

Thanx for the input everyone.