wow ok wtf

[ertyu]

So if there are terrorists sending e-mails back and forth to eachother planning another attack and the government is able to catch them and stop them before it happens, you're telling me that you don't think it was worth it for them to be reading e-mails? If you don't have anything to hide, dont bitch. They're not spying on your house, they're not spying on your entire life. They're spying on a communications medium. It does way more bad than good. If you REALLY want to get aorund it just get some encryption software as Devek said. Otherwise just deal with it.

[Devek]

So if there are terrorists sending e-mails back and forth to eachother planning another attack and the government is able to catch them and stop them before it happens, you're telling me that you don't think it was worth it for them to be reading e-mails?

That and the terrorist are using encryption too.. It isn't all for loss. I know a few people who are programmers on projects like these and one of the main and useful goals isn't for the government to actually read the communications but to recognize patterns and build social networks. They already have a pretty good system with those phone taps when they find a person of interest a quick search can turn up lots of people related to that person, even though the voice calls in question were encrypted and of no value individually.

[Demosthenes11]

political discussions on these boards are a lost cause. One side: wah, US is going to hell cuz bush and his administration sucks balls. Other side: wah, you are retarded, don't you understand ...?

I think you could change the name of the thread and the posts would still be the same

[finale23]

the problem with being monitored by the government is that it puts you in a position of guilty till proven innocent which goes against the constitution.this has nothing to do with the private company that provides access for you. well if telecommunications was a free market economy it wouldnt. every time you access the internet, pretend there's a cop next to you saying "... anything you say can and will be used against you..." thats essentially what govt monitoring is. now if they have a case-by-case warrant, that's a different matter.

qft, what most of you don't see is that we are on a slippery slope. the internet should remain neutral and be free of government surveillance and intervention. period. our forefathers must be spinning in their graves right now for us relinquishing our freedom so easily and willingly.

So if there are terrorists sending e-mails back and forth to eachother planning another attack and the government is able to catch them and stop them before it happens, you're telling me that you don't think it was worth it for them to be reading e-mails? If you don't have anything to hide, dont bitch.

FUD. that's exactly how we passed patriot act and are now involved in a unjustified war with no exit in sight. statically speaking, there is a higher probability to die in a traffic accident than in a terror attack. grow a pair and live your life, will ya?

[Raggedstar]

Trying to not really take a side, but...
Every argument that is supporting the government's right to spy on you is that they're actually finding useful information in the process. But, who are you to say that by spying on a majority of the internet-using population (or, even a small minority) that they are actually finding anything worthwhile?
What success rate would make it all worthwhile? If they prevent 1 death or injury, does that justify all of the people they've spied on? Does that justify all of the time and money they've spent?

Honestly, on the privacy issue, I don't really care.. but to know that I basically pay people to be able to spy on me is rather annoying. (Given, that I don't feel in danger from anyone over the Internet...)

[shirizaan]

except it's in no way similiar, but you're just going to be stubborn about it so there's no point in arguing with you. monitoring what is viewed on the internet in no way harms you. doesn't effect you in the least. only way something might come of it is if you are indeed doing something illegal. then it's your own damn fault for getting caught. monitoring a digital medium is NOTHING.

Never the less, you have certain rights that cannot legally be infringed upon. Legal agencies are currently required to get a subpoena to begin tapping your internet traffic, and that process requires that they provide evidence that you've done something illegal. You are assumed to be innocent until sufficient evidence can be shown to warrant further investigation. This assumes that everyone is guilty before they have any evidence of the sort.

This discussion keeps bringing up this question to me... is utilizing this form of communication/information exchange a right or a priveledge? Similar to those who bitch and moan about driving laws or having a driver's license revoked and such. Driving a car in the US is not a right. If this applies to the intarwebsuperhighway as well, then there's no discussion to be had.

As stated by another person already, these two things (driving a car and surfing the internet) are completely different. One is handled by a government agency, the Department of Transportation and the other is handled by private corporations which you enter into a contract with.

If you're really selfish enough to think "omg they are going through my stuff this angers me", and can't view it as a positive way for the government to catch those are are committing crimes through the internet then I don't understand where you're coming from. Who the fuck cares if they have access to your internet history, you aren't fucking suspect to even be looked at unless some keyword triggers them to look more closely at your stuff. How full of yourself are you that you think the government cares about your 4chan posts and your ffxi screenshots?

It's like being searched before getting on an airplane. Barring the obvious racial profiling that goes on, you are being checked, down to your fucking bones, for the safety of yourself and others. If you're so adamant about making sure you are totally private about everything then don't use the internet. Being searched before walking onto a flight is no different than having your internet history tracked. Go QQ moar.

You should be angry too. Senoska has yet to say that he believes that the government cares about his particular surfing habits, just as I am sure that they don't care about mine. But your example of having your internet history tracked being like an airport search is not correct. You agree to be searched when you buy your plane ticket, but the government is monitoring traffic that they should have no access to. You've signed no contract with them, you've worked your contract out with your Internet Service Provider. Now if your ISP has a clause that states that they will allow the government to search your Internet history, that's one thing. That's called full disclosure. The problem that people have with this is that it was conducted without any checks and balances being placed on it. It is, without a doubt, a complete violation of peoples' civil liberties.

So if there are terrorists sending e-mails back and forth to eachother planning another attack and the government is able to catch them and stop them before it happens, you're telling me that you don't think it was worth it for them to be reading e-mails? If you don't have anything to hide, dont bitch. They're not spying on your house, they're not spying on your entire life. They're spying on a communications medium. It does way more bad than good. If you REALLY want to get aorund it just get some encryption software as Devek said. Otherwise just deal with it.

See the above part about the requirement of having a subpoena and QFT.

no, they really won't. this is completely unrelated. arguing on priciple alone is the most retarded kind of argument you can make.

Principle is very much a valid reason to fight.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

The above statement is more true than you know. The American government has been allowed to take far too many shortcuts in the law under the guise of fighting terrorism. If a line isn't drawn in the sand, then eventually there will be no sand left to draw a line in.

[Orph]

Most of you really have no idea what you are talking about. I bet at most 1% of you have had your internet history searched at any time. They don't search just random people, that is a waste of time and money. For you to think that they are searching everyone's internet history is flat out wrong and beyond stupid. The amount of man hours required to do that would be more than it took to build the pyramids. They only search people that they suspect are doing something illegal.

I really think everyone should take at least a basic intro to law course just so they can see how things like this actually work and not get their info from bias news agencies.

I cant believe how many of you think its illegal for the government to monitor your internet usage.

[vegetaa]

I'm surprised to read that most of you guys say you "have nothing to hide" on your computer, and that your internet usage is perfectly legit. Do you guys NEVER download any copyrighted material (divx/mp3/...) ? Do you guys pay for ALL the software on your computer ? I really doubt that. Thinking about it, I'm sure a single visit at 4chan will most likely make you download pictures that are illegal in most countries.

But what's really bad in this story, over the fact they don't respect people's rights, the constitution and all, is the fact that people don't do anything to stop it ><

***Off Topic***
Its funny how little our government cares about constitutional rights its funny. "In god we trust" on our currency, "One nation under god" in our pledge, people being searched for no reason what so ever, Illegal wars, our government blocking science on religious biases, God dammit this country is going to hell.

That's exactly how we see the US, from Europe. The US government abuses more and more people's right everyday, and still we don't see any reaction !

Don't get me wrong : I'm not trolling about how Europe is way better than the US. It isn't and we have many things going wrong. But when that kind of thing happens, when such basic right as privacy are abused, you can be sure thousands or even millions of people are down on the streets, or on strike. Why would your government stop abusing your rights, if you don't complain or react to this (other way than Digging the url lol) ?

From an European PoV, it's amazing and also very sad to see that US people don't do shit to defend their rights :/ Or perhaps it happens but press doesn't cover these events (but I never heard any of my US friends talking about such thing, too) ?

[Senoska]

The government has a way of taking away rights that no one will protect, this is one of them. Pot use (Considered a tire 1 drug) was also outlawed, when it is up to you what you put in your body. No one will defend these people that use it so the law will stay in place, searching illegally will get people that do bad things but its still an illegal search, but because some people are getting busted no one will stand up for their rights. This is a really slippery slope, The government will continue to break the law to suit them, and fuck the American people, and no one will care long as they dont see it every day, no one will stand up for their rights, so now our jails will be clogged with people who in reality have done nothing wrong.

[vegetaa]

That's really scary. I always had some kind of admiration for the USA when I was younger...you know, the land where everything can be done, the american dream, successfull people...Seeing how it has become really makes me sad :/

[BRP]

Noooooo...

now the government will know about my gay furry scat fetish.

[Beckwin]

is utilizing this form of communication/information exchange a right or a priveledge?

I'd strongly argue that electronic communication/information exchange should be protected as a 1st ammendment right. Being monitored definitely abridges someone's freedom of speech, and the internet should be covered as a peaceable assembly.

[Devek]

is utilizing this form of communication/information exchange a right or a priveledge?

I'd strongly argue that electronic communication/information exchange should be protected as a 1st ammendment right. Being monitored definitely abridges someone's freedom of speech, and the internet should be covered as a peaceable assembly.

Not trying to argue..

.. I just wasn't aware that the government wasn't allowed to send someone to listen to what you had to say when you hold a peaceable assembly.

[finale23]

is utilizing this form of communication/information exchange a right or a priveledge?

I'd strongly argue that electronic communication/information exchange should be protected as a 1st ammendment right. Being monitored definitely abridges someone's freedom of speech, and the internet should be covered as a peaceable assembly.

Not trying to argue..

.. I just wasn't aware that the government wasn't allowed to send someone to listen to what you had to say when you hold a peaceable assembly.

bad analogy. monitoring emails and etc is more like illegal wiretapping. either the government agencies have warrants issued by a judge or gtfo.

[Beckwin]

is utilizing this form of communication/information exchange a right or a priveledge?

I'd strongly argue that electronic communication/information exchange should be protected as a 1st ammendment right. Being monitored definitely abridges someone's freedom of speech, and the internet should be covered as a peaceable assembly.

Not trying to argue..

.. I just wasn't aware that the government wasn't allowed to send someone to listen to what you had to say when you hold a peaceable assembly.

The assembly thing was referring to the internet being a right. Because that's basically what it is- an assembly of people sharing information. Monitoring your communications is akin to wiretapping.

[Devek]

But the Internet mechanically speaking is a broadcast mechanism... thousands of people around the world can and do read everything you do online already.

Unless you use technology that grants you privacy you have none.

[finale23]

But the Internet mechanically speaking is a broadcast mechanism... thousands of people around the world can and do read everything you do online already.

Unless you use technology that grants you privacy you have none.

i think the article is saying that NSA, FBI and other agencies may have gained access to people's private personal information, such as email or online activities (what sites you visit), via the help of large ISPs. your emails and what you do online should be nobody's business but your own, no one should know what you're doing unless you choose to let them.

[Senoska]

No dude, you're misunderstanding. If you post on the internet, for example I post my name is Kyle, then anyone can pick that information up, just like if I went up to you and go "Hi im kyle" and a government person(s) can overhear this without a warrant, its ME spreading MY information, but when I have something privet like my email history, my browsing history, my searches, etc that only I and my ISP should know and they are going into these things to try to build a case against you it is a illegal search.

I am not posting every email I get and every website I view, it is not public knowledge. They cannot "Over hear it". Get were im going with this? Just because the internet is on a digital medium does not make it exempt to the law and rules at hand.

[Devek]

heh..

So you guys wouldn't be afraid to submit your credit card number over an email to a friend you trusted? Or hell, even from one of your email accounts to another?

[Senoska]

heh..

So you guys wouldn't be afraid to submit your credit card number over an email to a friend you trusted? Or hell, even from one of your email accounts to another?

Would you be afraid to give your credit card number to anyone in real life in the first place? Would you give them a key to your mail box and tell them to go crazy? If you're going to debate this please use some intelligence to support your case.