The Special Task Force report (06/15/2007)

[Dense]

Disclaimer - I have never RMT'ed and I do have a deep down hatred for rmts themselves. Ive spent countless hours camping ulli only to see it pop claimed by pos-ing rmt. Now the days of despot and behemoth. But for the people who buy from them, meh, not my thing, dont really approve of it, but I understand.

-----------------8<--------------SNIP-----------------------8<------------------------------

Ban the farmers and sellers and let it filter down. Other then breaking the tos (which most of us do anyway using windower and other "harmless" 3rd party programs) they just want to enjoy the game to the max on the little time they do have to play. Whether you ban the people who truly enjoy this game in their few hours offtime, or the kids who's parents would rather spend hundreds of dollars on gil then spending some time with their kid, or the RMTs themselves, there will always be a market for rmt. But which is more harmful for the game, the RMT farmers/sellers who cockblock every nm in the game, or the working class who would like to be on par gearwise with the people who have the ability to play 20+ hours a day.

LOL. So sad, but so true.

[Ruth]

On the subject of illegality of RMT:

I'm no legal eagle by any standard, but the thought that bounces around in my head is that the game is a Copyrighted product. So wouldn't the use of that product for profit without permission of the copyright holder be a violation of the copyright laws? (Not that China usually gives a crap about copyright laws unless the holder is a Chinese company. )

[superfob]

But which is more harmful for the game, the RMT farmers/sellers who cockblock every nm in the game, or the working class who would like to be on par gearwise with the people who have the ability to play 20+ hours a day.

You can also buy pills to enlarge your penis. Money fixes everything right? Seriously, no need for epeen enlargement, just have fun with the game. Buyers are always the problem because they create the market. Until you get rid of them, RMT isn't going away.

[Amele]

Despite the fact that the brunt of the discussion is regarding rmt crafting and economic principles, yes your professors would all be proud, I'd like to change the discussion momentarily to RMT in sky. I have a theory that RMT will never leave sky. In fact, I believe that SE made sky FOR rmt players.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_constellations

If for some reason that doesn't work just look up 28 mansions in wikipedia.

(This, for the record, is not new information by any means. It has very likely been posted on this forum before.)

But, I do find myself thinking...... "Kirin?"..... "ah yes... how every japanese."

"Jormungand" (ok ok: Jörmungandr) would like to have a word with you and your 'chinese mythology' conspiracy theory.

[Septimus]

Despite the fact that the brunt of the discussion is regarding rmt crafting and economic principles, yes your professors would all be proud, I'd like to change the discussion momentarily to RMT in sky. I have a theory that RMT will never leave sky. In fact, I believe that SE made sky FOR rmt players.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_constellations

If for some reason that doesn't work just look up 28 mansions in wikipedia.

(This, for the record, is not new information by any means. It has very likely been posted on this forum before.)

But, I do find myself thinking...... "Kirin?"..... "ah yes... how every japanese."

"Jormungand" (ok ok: Jörmungandr) would like to have a word with you and your 'chinese mythology' conspiracy theory.

Someone needs to inform the RMT groups that camp Tiamat that she is a Babylonian goddess, and therefor off limits to them.

[Spekkio]

On the subject of illegality of RMT:

I'm no legal eagle by any standard, but the thought that bounces around in my head is that the game is a Copyrighted product. So wouldn't the use of that product for profit without permission of the copyright holder be a violation of the copyright laws? (Not that China usually gives a crap about copyright laws unless the holder is a Chinese company. )

i think you'd find that a difficult argument to win. the original case that set the legal precedent for RMT (i forget what the MMO was as well as the RMT firm off the top of my head. maybe someone here can help me out on that.) stated that it was not any content, but the time invested in collecting the money that was being sold. as such, the RMT firm was not infringing upon the IP of the MMOG owner, and as such were legally operating. (anyone who remembers this case better, PLEASE feel free to chime in. i'm doing this off the top of my head and could be wrong very easily.)

this is akin to my charing a setup fee to install windows on your computer. Microsoft owns the IP, copyrights, etc for windows and if i were to try to sell that product if i'd not bought a license from MSFT to sell to you, i'd be in violation of copyright law. my charging you for my time to install a copy of windows that you have purchased, however, is completely legal. this is how RMT have, at least historically, skirted IP laws in selling online currency and items. they're technically selling you their TIME to farm the items, not the items themselves. completely semantic difference to anyone involved, but a significant legal difference.

[Amele]

Despite the fact that the brunt of the discussion is regarding rmt crafting and economic principles, yes your professors would all be proud, I'd like to change the discussion momentarily to RMT in sky. I have a theory that RMT will never leave sky. In fact, I believe that SE made sky FOR rmt players.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_constellations

If for some reason that doesn't work just look up 28 mansions in wikipedia.

(This, for the record, is not new information by any means. It has very likely been posted on this forum before.)

But, I do find myself thinking...... "Kirin?"..... "ah yes... how every japanese."

"Jormungand" (ok ok: Jörmungandr) would like to have a word with you and your 'chinese mythology' conspiracy theory.

Someone needs to inform the RMT groups that camp Tiamat that she is a Babylonian goddess, and therefor off limits to them.

someone from Asura get on this, stat!

[Tordall]

Anyone know what WoW's suit against one of their large RMT sites is about?

The outcome of that case will probably have a big effect on other MMORPGs.

[aurik]

i think you'd find that a difficult argument to win. the original case that set the legal precedent for RMT (i forget what the MMO was as well as the RMT firm off the top of my head. maybe someone here can help me out on that.) stated that it was not any content, but the time invested in collecting the money that was being sold. as such, the RMT firm was not infringing upon the IP of the MMOG owner, and as such were legally operating. (anyone who remembers this case better, PLEASE feel free to chime in. i'm doing this off the top of my head and could be wrong very easily.)

this is akin to my charing a setup fee to install windows on your computer. Microsoft owns the IP, copyrights, etc for windows and if i were to try to sell that product if i'd not bought a license from MSFT to sell to you, i'd be in violation of copyright law. my charging you for my time to install a copy of windows that you have purchased, however, is completely legal. this is how RMT have, at least historically, skirted IP laws in selling online currency and items. they're technically selling you their TIME to farm the items, not the items themselves. completely semantic difference to anyone involved, but a significant legal difference.

Your analogy doesn't fit. And anyhow, it's not illegal, it's breach of contract.

When you sign into the service, you agree that you're not going to sell virtual items for real value. Since this is clause is not illegal, anyone who enters this contract is pretty much bound to that term, unless somehow you can successfully dispute it due to unconscionability. When people RMT, they breach the contract they made with SE, and SE has the right to pursue remedies for breach of contract.

[aurik]

Anyone know what WoW's suit against one of their large RMT sites is about?

The outcome of that case will probably have a big effect on other MMORPGs.

Blizzard suing Peons4hire, but I haven't seen a PDF of the claims. Google isn't helping me find it either. It really depends what they're claiming and whether they win if it will impact RMT .

[rezn0r]

You can also buy pills to enlarge your penis.

pm plz

[Tordall]

Anyone know what WoW's suit against one of their large RMT sites is about?

The outcome of that case will probably have a big effect on other MMORPGs.

Blizzard suing Peons4hire, but I haven't seen a PDF of the claims. Google isn't helping me find it either. It really depends what they're claiming and whether they win if it will impact RMT .

TY, searched a bit for it myself. You're right that there's definitely a lack of information about the case. If someone has access to PACER (and the time/rights to use it) that's probably going to be the only really good way to find out what the case is specifically about.

The public information seems to be that Blizzard wants an injunction against P4H from creating level 1 characters that immediately violate thier terms of service.

The best theory about the law suit is that Blizzard is sueing for the right to prevent someone from entering into their contract to play WoW because based on prior behavior the player is planning to immediately violate that contract.

If that's the case (and I repeat If) then it's something that would have a pretty global effect on anti-RMT efforts.

Too bad there's not something the equivalent of Groklaw for this stuff.

[Khamsin]

Maybe they can get a player to sue RMT for encroaching on their enjoyment of the game, while they're at it.

[Spekkio]

i think you'd find that a difficult argument to win. the original case that set the legal precedent for RMT (i forget what the MMO was as well as the RMT firm off the top of my head. maybe someone here can help me out on that.) stated that it was not any content, but the time invested in collecting the money that was being sold. as such, the RMT firm was not infringing upon the IP of the MMOG owner, and as such were legally operating. (anyone who remembers this case better, PLEASE feel free to chime in. i'm doing this off the top of my head and could be wrong very easily.)

this is akin to my charing a setup fee to install windows on your computer. Microsoft owns the IP, copyrights, etc for windows and if i were to try to sell that product if i'd not bought a license from MSFT to sell to you, i'd be in violation of copyright law. my charging you for my time to install a copy of windows that you have purchased, however, is completely legal. this is how RMT have, at least historically, skirted IP laws in selling online currency and items. they're technically selling you their TIME to farm the items, not the items themselves. completely semantic difference to anyone involved, but a significant legal difference.

Your analogy doesn't fit. And anyhow, it's not illegal, it's breach of contract.

When you sign into the service, you agree that you're not going to sell virtual items for real value. Since this is clause is not illegal, anyone who enters this contract is pretty much bound to that term, unless somehow you can successfully dispute it due to unconscionability. When people RMT, they breach the contract they made with SE, and SE has the right to pursue remedies for breach of contract.

i'm well aware that there's other issues, as you can tweek your contract so that when you click "i agree" SE gets claim to your first born or the right to call you knobface if they're having a frumpy day. i was speaking in direct reference to the post asking if one could use copyright law to attack RMT sites, and demonstrating that there's legal precedent to protect them from the IP argument.

the bottom line is that you can file legal challenges against RMT till your hand cramps up and get nowhere. attacking the CGF companies via legal methods likely won't do squat. they hang out in china where the government is too busy trying to censor the internet to spend resources to harm their own businesses. one viable method might be to block payments to the companies, as most credit card companies that they do business with are US bound or otherwise within reasonable reach, i believe. that is the tact that a group suing RMT in WoW is going after i think. good luck to them. they're going to need it.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/vi ... e-Escapist

[Octavious]

i'm well aware that there's other issues, as you can tweek your contract so that when you click "i agree" SE gets claim to your first born or the right to call you knobface if they're having a frumpy day.

Sounds like MGS2..."Stay Alive or we'll kill the child!!"

But seriously, I keep wondering how RMT actually has staying power. And it keeps bringing me back to the fact its harder to stop things in the digital age. I mean if you ban all ppl from China, sure that solves RMT maybe but you screw out half your player base. Although there should be some way to track where these RMT are, then maybe block them.

[Ruth]

i think you'd find that a difficult argument to win. the original case that set the legal precedent for RMT (i forget what the MMO was as well as the RMT firm off the top of my head. maybe someone here can help me out on that.) stated that it was not any content, but the time invested in collecting the money that was being sold. as such, the RMT firm was not infringing upon the IP of the MMOG owner, and as such were legally operating. (anyone who remembers this case better, PLEASE feel free to chime in. i'm doing this off the top of my head and could be wrong very easily.)

this is akin to my charing a setup fee to install windows on your computer. Microsoft owns the IP, copyrights, etc for windows and if i were to try to sell that product if i'd not bought a license from MSFT to sell to you, i'd be in violation of copyright law. my charging you for my time to install a copy of windows that you have purchased, however, is completely legal. this is how RMT have, at least historically, skirted IP laws in selling online currency and items. they're technically selling you their TIME to farm the items, not the items themselves. completely semantic difference to anyone involved, but a significant legal difference.

The anology isn't quite right, Gilbuyers aren't paying the sellers to install FFXI for them, they are using FFXI as a tool to collect a commodity (gil). You could argue that gil is a copyrighted product of SE's and that you are licencing players who agree to the TOS to use it within the confines of the TOS. If "MegaCorp" were to buy a single copy of Windows and install it on 5,000 of it workstations while only registering one machine, MicroSoft would come down on them like a ton of bricks for piracy (sp?). Because MicroSoft's term of use state that the software bought is for use on a single machine, and that any additional copies of the application are welcome as long as you pay the appropiate licencing fee. So what we're talking about here is not the illegal use of the software, but the breach of contract (as stated in above post).

[evilpaul]

You'd think SE could sue RMT companies for lifting their official FFXI art for use in all their annoying flash banner ads at least.

People have tried to make a comparison to RMT in FFXI and real world prohibitions, but they don't work for a number of reasons.

In the real world prohibition is proposed because of how 'naughty' drinking alcohol, sleeping with prostitutes, or smoking crack is. It then creates problems with organized crime violence for territorial control, more dangerous black market products (disolved lead in moonshine, STD infected prostitutes, more potent/concentrated drugs), higher prices (and property crimes to pay them), and no courts to resolve disputes (so street violence to settle them). Then in the wake of the catastrophe prohibition creates people still do the prohibited behavior anyway.

In FFXI RMT is prohibited because SE doesn't want to have to deal with legal disputes over in-game "property". It's a simple violation of the contract you agree to when you start FFXI everytime, and SE can and should enforce it.

If they ban people for doing RMT (both buyers and sellers), and make it easier for legit players to afford their AH and/or HQ gear there will be a lot less of it. They're doing that, and it's pretty noticeable. Adjusting the gil rewards for quests like I recall they said they were contemplating a little while back so that there's some worth doing for that reason wouldn't hurt either. Of course they'll have to strike a balance there to avoid the whole clay tablet quest thing.

[Septimus]

You'd think SE could sue RMT companies for lifting their official FFXI art for use in all their annoying flash banner ads at least.

And that would probably be the easiest law suit that they could win.

Square (and other companies that run MMOs) should probably go to advertisers like Google and what not and "ask" then "nicely" to stop carrying ads for RMT sites. Explain that ads for RMT sites on FFXI pages/forums would be like ads for Human Growth Hormones on Baseball web pages/forums.

And by "ask" and "nicely" I mean "covertly threaten to not advertise with your service".

[Ploid]

I come home and play ffxi to relax, I rather enjoy doing ls events, xping low lvl jobs, but farming is not one of my enjoyable activities - as im sure it is not for anyone. There is not much left to farm that makes much of a profit, and the big ticket items are overran by rmt. Now just imagine you really want XXX piece of equipment for your character and it will take you a month of straight farming (in the couple hours a day you get after work) to save up the gil to buy it. On the other hand you can buy the same amount of gil for an hours worth of overtime, and spend that month enjoying the game.

This is a common argument in favor of buying gil. If you want to enjoy a peaceful day of playing a game, don't play a mmorpg. Or play the mmo and don't worry about having the best gear/items/craft/skill levels. Just run around killing low level stuff with friends and do your role play thing or something. Make a recreation of FF6's opera house segment in ffxi. Make a original story like Aegis of Release. Have your fun. Also +1 items are for when you have too much earned money and have nothing else to buy. Get nq stuff. No matter how you put it, buying gil is just giving the robot like gilfarmers a reason to stay on top of those gil making NMs.

I'm sure just about everyone here, that played before gs started farming NMs heavily, had a nm or two that brought them a sufficient amount of income. And buying stuff wasn't such a pain with emp hairpin at 200k, and leaping boots being around the same price.

[BRP]

On the other hand you can buy the same amount of gil for an hours worth of overtime, and spend that month enjoying the game.

I work, blah blah blah, want to relax when I get home, blah blah blah, so when I play Monopoly with my family I don't want to actually work for those fake 100 dollar bills, I just pay my son/brother/mother/wife 20 real dollars for 1,000 monopoly dollars. Blah blah. Crappy argument.

Someone needs to inform the RMT groups that camp Tiamat that she is a Babylonian goddess, and therefor off limits to them.

You heard it here first guys, Septimus supports any oil-blooded UAEs on their Tiamat monopolies they may have. (kekeke)