As it turns out

[guartz]

well, you know... the jews did suicide bomb the British when they occupied Palestine in 1950s...

And we can thank the muslims for some mathematics, literary works, inventions, that were pretty much peerless 1,000 years ago.

no I don't agree with the picture this woman is painting.

You gotta remember, most of our inventions have happened within the last 50 years... and the last 50 years the Muslim lands have been under constant attack and oppression by russian, isreal, and american forces. There was no time for development if your population is at constant strife.

That accounts for the last 50 years, they still act like they are in the stoneage, what accounts for the last 3,000 years?

no man, historically Islam was a very tolerant religion. It's not, unfortunately that old. They did behave more civilized then Christians or Jews of the same era. Hell, even 50 years ago they acted more civilized then Americans!

[MF Perm]

well, you know... the jews did suicide bomb the British when they occupied Palestine in 1950s...

And we can thank the muslims for some mathematics, literary works, inventions, that were pretty much peerless 1,000 years ago.

no I don't agree with the picture this woman is painting.

You gotta remember, most of our inventions have happened within the last 50 years... and the last 50 years the Muslim lands have been under constant attack and oppression by russian, isreal, and american forces. There was no time for development if your population is at constant strife.

That accounts for the last 50 years, they still act like they are in the stoneage, what accounts for the last 3,000 years?

no man, historically Islam was a very tolerant religion. It's not, unfortunately that old. They did behave more civilized then Christians or Jews of the same era. Hell, even 50 years ago they acted more civilized then Americans!

It was the Arab culture that brought us those things, not the Muslim religion.

[guartz]

It was the Arab culture that brought us those things, not the Muslim religion.

This is true, but this culture incidentally didn't begin to shine until 7th century, around the same time Mohammad came about. Although I cannot say for sure if indeed it was Islam that inspired these things, I'm sure it had some influence. No? Anybody studied Islam around here that can tell me for sure?

[MF Perm]

It was the Arab culture that brought us those things, not the Muslim religion.

This is true, but this culture incidentally didn't begin to shine until 7th century, around the same time Mohammad came about. Although I cannot say for sure if indeed it was Islam that inspired these things, I'm sure it had some influence. No? Anybody studied Islam around here that can tell me for sure?

Are you kidding me? Hammurabi and Babylon were way pre-Islam for one. The Hanging Gardens, the code of law. The Persian empires. This is way before Mohammed and Islam. They have a very rich culture and history before religion destroyed it.

[Kuya]

[quote=MF Perm]

It was the Arab culture that brought us those things, not the Muslim religion.

This is true, but this culture incidentally didn't begin to shine until 7th century, around the same time Mohammad came about. Although I cannot say for sure if indeed it was Islam that inspired these things, I'm sure it had some influence. No? Anybody studied Islam around here that can tell me for sure?

Are you kidding me? Hammurabi and Babylon were way pre-Islam for one. The Hanging Gardens, the code of law. The Persian empires. This is way before Mohammed and Islam. They have a very rich culture and history before religion destroyed it.[/quote:6712c]

Exactly how educated are you in the study of cultures to say that religion ruined their culture?

[archibaldcrane]

Anyone else crack up at the google ad beneath?

Meet Sexy Arab Women Find Your Arab Soul Mate Today! Search photos of Arab women http://www.ArabLounge.com

Oddly....appropriate? not that she's hot, that she's talking about liberated muslim women

[MF Perm]

[quote=Kuya]

It was the Arab culture that brought us those things, not the Muslim religion.

This is true, but this culture incidentally didn't begin to shine until 7th century, around the same time Mohammad came about. Although I cannot say for sure if indeed it was Islam that inspired these things, I'm sure it had some influence. No? Anybody studied Islam around here that can tell me for sure?

Are you kidding me? Hammurabi and Babylon were way pre-Islam for one. The Hanging Gardens, the code of law. The Persian empires. This is way before Mohammed and Islam. They have a very rich culture and history before religion destroyed it.

Exactly how educated are you in the study of cultures to say that religion ruined their culture?[/quote:c238d]

Well when such things as Muslim mobs destroying statues, temples, art, and texts of old gods, religions, and social behavior that didn't fit in their own new religious culture as well as others ( Buddhist and Hindu ones in India ), knowing the history and effects of that I'd say very educated.

[Sess]

It's kind of cool when you see some people like her speak out.

I agree with her on most points, but its of course a gross over generalization. Like anywhere in the world there are idiots and there are great people in Arabic/Islamic cultures. We get a very bad rep from what honestly a fraction of the entire population does.

I wish we got off our invisible and imaginary high horse. Talk to most Muslim, and you can eventually get them to talk about how their culture gave the world algebra and what not. But we honestly have been so stuck on how much greater we think we are, that we never truly move forward.

One thing that is missing in that debate is that change is happening, slowly in some places, faster in others. The fact that this debate (or I should say speech) was aired on a TV channel from a highly conservative country should be proof of that. I remember when I was a kid living back home in the Middle East woman didn't work if at all. As I graduated from high school, it was starting to be very common for most woman to have a career, and the veil was starting to become more of a fashion accessory instead of something woman use to cover their hair.

[Kuya]

[quote=MF Perm][quote=Kuya]

It was the Arab culture that brought us those things, not the Muslim religion.

This is true, but this culture incidentally didn't begin to shine until 7th century, around the same time Mohammad came about. Although I cannot say for sure if indeed it was Islam that inspired these things, I'm sure it had some influence. No? Anybody studied Islam around here that can tell me for sure?

Are you kidding me? Hammurabi and Babylon were way pre-Islam for one. The Hanging Gardens, the code of law. The Persian empires. This is way before Mohammed and Islam. They have a very rich culture and history before religion destroyed it.

Exactly how educated are you in the study of cultures to say that religion ruined their culture?[/quote:25279]

Well when such things as Muslim mobs destroying statues, temples, art, and texts of old gods, religions, and social behavior that didn't fit in their own new religious culture as well as others ( Buddhist and Hindu ones in India ), knowing the history and effects of that I'd say very educated.[/quote:25279]

So basicaly you are not only claiming that religion is NOT part of a society's culture, but you are also saying Islam is a culture of violence, when in fact the same could be said of any religion that is used negatively. You can't claim that Islam ruined Arab culture, because Islam is Arab culture, and to add to that the Islam religion was not twisted into this from the start, as many religions were just innocent ideas at the begining. There are a large number of factors that have lead into the creation of today's Arab world, to say that religion is the only factor is simply ignorant.

It's as if i went and sead that black culture is violent and inferior because that is its nature, when in fact there are a slew of events that have lead to the decadence of African-American culture in the USA. And i'm sure most of you at least know what one of the factors is.

[MF Perm]

[quote=Kuya][quote=MF Perm]

It was the Arab culture that brought us those things, not the Muslim religion.

This is true, but this culture incidentally didn't begin to shine until 7th century, around the same time Mohammad came about. Although I cannot say for sure if indeed it was Islam that inspired these things, I'm sure it had some influence. No? Anybody studied Islam around here that can tell me for sure?

Are you kidding me? Hammurabi and Babylon were way pre-Islam for one. The Hanging Gardens, the code of law. The Persian empires. This is way before Mohammed and Islam. They have a very rich culture and history before religion destroyed it.

Exactly how educated are you in the study of cultures to say that religion ruined their culture?

Well when such things as Muslim mobs destroying statues, temples, art, and texts of old gods, religions, and social behavior that didn't fit in their own new religious culture as well as others ( Buddhist and Hindu ones in India ), knowing the history and effects of that I'd say very educated.[/quote:7a5d9]

So basicaly you are not only claiming that religion is NOT part of a society's culture, but you are also saying Islam is a culture of violence, when in fact the same could be said of any religion that is used negatively. You can't claim that Islam ruined Arab culture, because Islam is Arab culture, and to add to that the Islam religion was not twisted into this from the start, as many religions were just innocent ideas at the begining. There are a large number of factors that have lead into the creation of today's Arab world, to say that religion is the only factor is simply ignorant.[/quote:7a5d9]


I never said violence, I merely said that due to Islam ancient cultural relics from their own culture as well as other cultures has been destroyed.

I'd appreciate if you didn't put words into my mouth.

And yes, the Islamic ideals ruined and destroyed a large portion of Arabic identity and culture. I agree that religion is part of a culture, hence I mentioned previous Arabic religions relics being destroyed in the process. But that's my point, religion is part of the culture, where Islam overtook that culture for the most part and replaced alot of aspects of it.

I'm not going to be an apologist here just because of world events. I respect everyones right to peacefully practice their own religion or beliefs, but the simple fact is that Islam has been a destructive force in the world as has Christianity and Judaism.

And my point stands that due to Islam, many Arabic cultural artifacts and observations are lost. To ignore the impact of religion on any culture is in fact ignorant.

[Kuya]

I don't quite understand, you say you don't mean that Islam is violent, yet you say it destroyed parts of the Arab culture. This happends all the time in history, and sometimes it even has no religion involved. It can be paralled to how the latin toungue and culture forced itself onto other cultures, and nearly wiped them out. There was no religion involved here, just a culture. Your gripe isn't even with a religious belief, it's with the nature of culture itself. Cultures consume other cultures or they merge with them.

[guartz]

And yes, the Islamic ideals ruined and destroyed a large portion of Arabic identity and culture. I agree that religion is part of a culture, hence I mentioned previous Arabic religions relics being destroyed in the process. But that's my point, religion is part of the culture, where Islam overtook that culture for the most part and replaced alot of aspects of it.

but MF Perm, Islam united the already destroyed portion of Arabic identity. Mohammad united the fractured tribes, if you will.

[MF Perm]

I don't quite understand, you say you don't mean that Islam is violent, yet you say it destroyed parts of the Arab culture. This happends all the time in history, and sometimes it even has no religion involved. It can be paralled to how the latin toungue and culture forced itself onto other cultures, and nearly wiped them out. There was no religion involved here, just a culture. Your gripe isn't even with a religious belief, it's with the nature of culture itself. Cultures consume other cultures or they merge with them.

Christianity was greatly involved in that. They thought the natives were godless heathens.

[MF Perm]

And yes, the Islamic ideals ruined and destroyed a large portion of Arabic identity and culture. I agree that religion is part of a culture, hence I mentioned previous Arabic religions relics being destroyed in the process. But that's my point, religion is part of the culture, where Islam overtook that culture for the most part and replaced alot of aspects of it.

but MF Perm, Islam united the already destroyed portion of Arabic identity. Mohammad united the fractured tribes, if you will.

That wasn't Arabic identity, that was fractured kingdoms. Very large difference.

[Kuya]

I don't quite understand, you say you don't mean that Islam is violent, yet you say it destroyed parts of the Arab culture. This happends all the time in history, and sometimes it even has no religion involved. It can be paralled to how the latin toungue and culture forced itself onto other cultures, and nearly wiped them out. There was no religion involved here, just a culture. Your gripe isn't even with a religious belief, it's with the nature of culture itself. Cultures consume other cultures or they merge with them.

Christianity was greatly involved in that. They thought the natives were godless heathens.

Early Roman expansion was not religious in its intent, Spain fell to Roman forces 206 B.C, the latin culture had overtaken the native culture at around 218 B.C.

[MF Perm]

Oh ok I mistook what you said for the conquests in Latin America.

The Romans also went all the way up to Britain and Scotland, and into Germany, yet alot of those cultures retained their myths, legends, writings etc etc.


There is a big difference between overtaking and assimilating a culture, and destroying aspects of it in religious fervor.



Of course my outlook on the Arabs and Islam are my opinion based on what I've read and studied. I still stand by my point that advances contributed to Islam should be more contributed to the Arabic people.

[Kuya]

Mankind will always find an excuse to do what they desire, religion is just but one of many tools for such a purpose. Wether it be for a religion or for a nationalistic idea, the end results will be the same. What you should be contesting is human nature, as you can give people an idea with good intentions, then have it warped into something else. This corruption can happen with everything.

And to reiterate, religion is a scapegoat, not the cause. As they say, guns don't kill people, people kill people.

[MF Perm]

Mankind will always find an excuse to do what they desire, religion is just but one of many tools for such a purpose. Wether it be for a religion or for a nationalistic idea, the end results will be the same. What you should be contesting is human nature, as you can give people an idea with good intentions, then have it warped into something else. This corruption can happen with everything.

And to reiterate, religion is a scapegoat, not the cause. As they say, guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Yeah but you're telling this to an anti-gun person who believes guns are an enabler, just as I believe religion is


I certainly believe it's the abuse of religion by those in control of it, but people cling to it for dear life without pause for logic or reason. I religion were not there, as with the gun, the atrocities that are a result of it and man combined would not be present today.

[Kuya]

If religion were not there, as with the gun, the atrocities that are a result of it and man combined would not be present today.

No, it would either be replaced by a new religion, or they would find some other reason to do what they wanted to do.

This is my problem with the whole religion and gun debate, people continue to savagely attack the branches of the tree by completely ignoring the roots of the problem. Why do people use guns? Do they feel threatend? Why do people steal? Why do some people snap and kill others? Why does somebody need to feel there is something after death? Why do some people (if not all) feel like they need to belong to an idea, instead of the other way around? Why do people use religion?

You're not gonna get anything out of attacking religion or guns, as they are not the cause of the problem. They are only modifiers.

[MF Perm]

If religion were not there, as with the gun, the atrocities that are a result of it and man combined would not be present today.

No, it would either be replaced by a new religion, or they would find some other reason to do what they wanted to do.

This is my problem with the whole religion and gun debate, people continue to savagely attack the branches of the tree by completely ignoring the roots of the problem. Why do people use guns? Do they feel threatend? Why do people steal? Why do some people snap and kill others? Why does somebody need to feel there is something after death? Why do some people (if not all) feel like they need to belong to an idea, instead of the other way around? Why do people use religion?

You're not gonna get anything out of attacking religion or guns, as they are not the cause of the problem. They are only modifiers.

I wouldn't say modifiers so much as I would say contributors. I don't mean if you take X religion away, everything will be fine. I'm saying if we reached the point where we understand we do not need bedtime stories to pacify us or control us then we can start reaching for the stars.

I don't think attacking religion and guns are attacking branches but are the first steps of understanding our problems and potential. These are intrinsic feelings people harbor that they must fight and kill, and that something controls and decides for us. Once we move past and abolish these ideas we step upward as humanity.

I can't think of any other way to address the issues of our problems without first addressing our own machinations that we use to enforce our problems onto others. Can you?