As it turns out

[Kuya]

I can't think of any other way to address the issues of our problems without first addressing our own machinations that we use to enforce our problems onto others. Can you?

The first step isn't elimination, you study these machinations in order to find the root of the problem. You don't just take the life support from a person who needs it, or the cane of a person who can't walk well on his own. Once you find out what the problem is, and fix it, they realize on their own that they don't need it. And that is were i'm disagreeing with you, you can't force people to stop using guns or stop using religion, they have to realize that on their own, you can only help by satisfying whatever it is that causes their necesity.

[MF Perm]

I can't think of any other way to address the issues of our problems without first addressing our own machinations that we use to enforce our problems onto others. Can you?

The first step isn't elimination, you study these machinations in order to find the root of the problem. You don't just take the life support from a person who needs it, or the cane of a person who can't walk well on his own. Once you find out what the problem is, and fix it, they realize on their own that they don't need it. And that is were i'm disagreeing with you, you can't force people to stop using guns or stop using religion, they have to realize that on their own, you can only help by satisfying whatever it is that causes their necesity.

I agree with you 100%. But would you propose that we fix that problem? The only way I can see is to point to logic and reason and say "Look, what you're doing isn't working. What you believe has no base." And for guns, "Look, there is no reason to kill. There is no reason to fear."

I'm certainly not an advocate of impressing my beliefs on others or being forceful about it, so maybe I just wasn't articulating my point clearly enough. I just feel that religion empowers people to do hideous things in its name. Religion justifies the worst of mens traits while at the same time has the power to condemn the best of his intentions.

The only thing I'm really troubled by what you said is satisfy whatever is causing their necessity. I think that really comes down to ego, and that need to believe we're something more or that we can please an all ruling deity so we live in peace and prosperity in an afterlife is really insatiable without the proper teaching and understanding of oneself and others. That's a very hard thirst to quench without hard truth and bold reality, and it's not satisfying to realize that.

When I was like 19, and I came to terms with my Catholic upbringing and realized that this just wasn't true and really started on my path to atheism, I cried. That's very painful to face those lies and the idea that after death is quite likely nothing. Not many people are that strong to face their religion and say that.

So that said, I really think the abolishment of religion in society is what is best for man. But I will never ever ever in a million years infringe on someones right to peacefully practice and believe what they want to.

And maybe that's the fatal flaw of atheism and Buddhism ( among some other introspective ideas ), is that it's not about conquest and control; it's about truth.