100 Scythe - Omnislash

[Kirschy]

I was able to run through some of the data with a friend today. Here are the results we got:

Apoc is 513 Delay~
20% : Haste Gear(Aces, Homam Hands/Feet/Legs, Speed Belt, Blitz Ring)
15% : Haste Spell(It's roughly around this amount)
20% : Marches(It's roughly around this amount)
40% : SV Marches x2
10% : Catastrophe
10% : Hasso
10% : Desperate Blows (Level 2)

We frapsed different haste setups, and determined the attack speed through the frames on the uncompressed video. Granted this isn't a 100% conclusive test, it gives some idea as to how haste is working at the higher levels. About 10 hits were recorded at each haste combination, and the average of frames were taken.

1) 0%~ naked : 198 avg
2) 20%~ gear : 160 avg
3) 40%~ gear + marches : 126 avg
4) 55%~ gear + marches + haste : 78 avg
5) 65%~ gear + marches + haste + cata : 75 avg
6) 75%~ gear + SVmarches + haste : 80 avg
7) 85%~ gear + SVmarches + haste + hasso : 58 avg
8) 95%~ gear + SVmarches + haste + hasso + DB : 47avg

This test makes it appear that attack speed is capping out around 60%ish, and that Catastrophe doesn't increase this cap. Hasso and DB seem to make a noticable difference, and they are both supposedly around 10%. I'm unable to think of a more rigerous way to test this.

[aurik]

Number of attacks in a fixed # of seconds is another way to measure it accurately.

Also, what does "198" represent?

[aurik]

1) 0%~ naked : 198 avg
2) 20%~ gear : 160 avg
3) 40%~ gear + marches : 126 avg
4) 55%~ gear + marches + haste : 78 avg
5) 65%~ gear + marches + haste + cata : 75 avg
6) 75%~ gear + SVmarches + haste : 80 avg
7) 85%~ gear + SVmarches + haste + hasso : 58 avg
8) 95%~ gear + SVmarches + haste + hasso + DB : 47avg

80 / 198 = ~40%
So with SV march + haste + gear, capping at 60% haste

58 / 198 = ~30%
So hasso applies after the previous cap

Not sure about DB. Further details about its effect would be interesting.

[Kirschy]

The 198 was how many frames passed from the start of one attack animation to the start of another. It gave me some idea of what to test. I'm kinda curious on getting some definitive answers. As long as the video is being recorded @ 30 fps (which I believe is the max frame rate on the game?) every 30 frames = 1 second. He might have recorded at 25fps, I'll have to check with him. I guess if I can get my hands on a Relic Scythe (999 Delay one) I can deduce more definitevly what is happening at higher haste values. For now I'll try re-running some tests with 50-70% haste values and see if I can get a lower margian of error with more data samples.

[Khelek]

so wait. no haste belt?

[Kirschy]

I just finished running another test that was specificalli to find "haste" cap, and if Catastrophe went above the cap.

I used DRK/DRG, using Wyvern Earring and Blitz Ring I had 25% in equipment haste.
Haste Spell is roughly 15%
SV Marches are roughly 40%

The fraps were done by a 3rd character, and recorded at 30 fps uncompressed avi. Recorded a bunch of hits, looked for a target reference frame. And used "First Frame-Last Frame/Hits" to get a good estimate. Checking each hit individualli this proved to be very accurate.

With 0% haste~ 255 frames
With 10% (Catastrophe)~ 229 frames (229/255 x 100 = 89.8%)
With 25% Haste (Eq)~ 191 frames (191/255 x 100 = 74.9%)
With 80% Haste (Eq+Spell+Songs)~ 82 frames (82/255 x 100 = 32.3%)
With 80% Haste + 10% (Catastrophe)~ 81 frames (81/255 x 100 = 31.8%)

I realize there is a small margin of error... but it seems pretti clear there is some haste cap between 65%-70%... my guess is 66.6%~ Catastrophe doesn't give you any extra bonus when you at this speed. Hasso and Desperate Blows reduce delay further, but I can do further testing on that later.
(Notes~ Last test was frapsed in 25fps, todays was done in 30fps. Using the delay formula on wiki, 513/60=8.55 seconds. 255 frames/30 = 8.5 seconds.)

EDIT: The added Haste from eq, spells, songs is 80%, not 70%.

[Retrieving/C.D/Searain]

Older than the internets.

http://www.killingifrit.com/forums.p...217eff60dc6f9f

I just finished running another test that was specifically to find "haste" cap, (...)

I realize there is a small margin of error... but it seems pretty clear there is some haste cap between 65%-70%...

So actually, it's not a delay cap, rather the haste cap on melee attacks is +70%, and I'm 99%+ certain on that now.

[Kirschy]

I don't think it's a suprise the cap was 70%ish, but it's nice to see some confirmation, and ties directly into the question of Catastrophe being applied to the cap. I can't think of another class that could confirm this test that well either. Since equipment haste is capped at 25%, SV Marches being 40%, and haste spell being 15%, thats a 70% haste total. There is no other way to gain additional haste besides from Catastrophe. (Or Haste belt, however that ends up working into the caps.) (Is it possible that the haste cap on equipment only applies to recast timers, but is still applied to attack speed?)

[fallenleaf]

I don't think it's a suprise the cap was 70%ish, but it's nice to see some confirmation, and ties directly into the question of Catastrophe being applied to the cap. I can't think of another class that could confirm this test that well either. Since equipment haste is capped at 25%, SV Marches being 40%, and haste spell being 15%, thats a 70% haste total. There is no other way to gain additional haste besides from Catastrophe. (Or Haste belt, however that ends up working into the caps.) (Is it possible that the haste cap on equipment only applies to recast timers, but is still applied to attack speed?)

25+40+15 = 80

[Kirschy]

25+40+15 = 80

I'm pretti fucking dumb. I can't believe I didn't notice that. I guess in regards to my tests above, I had 80% haste and was displaying around 68%ish haste on attack speed. That also completely disregards my prior point on having a unique situation to test the cap. Data still holds at least, I'll edit my post to accurately reflected the added hastes.

[aurik]

So the conclusion is that DB bonus is calculated like Hasso? 5% post-cap haste per merit?

[Kirschy]

Yep. Hasso and DB both act upon delay after the haste cap.

[aurik]

So theoretically, drk can accomplish this with any 2h weapon, and can accomplish 85% haste (3x slower) with a single-handed weapon with any subjob.

[Vistani]

So theoretically, drk can accomplish this with any 2h weapon, and can accomplish 85% haste (3x slower) with a single-handed weapon with any subjob.

Desperate blows only works on 2 handed weapons

[JeanClaudVanDamme]

So uh, after much calculation, did Xno achieve 95% haste in that vid? I failed math, btw.

[aurik]

So uh, after much calculation, did Xno achieve 95% haste in that vid? I failed math, btw.

Yea, but cata doesn't help him reach that point; any drk with sam sub and 3 DB merits and a bard and a red mage and 15% in haste gear or effects can hit it.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

So uh, after much calculation, did Xno achieve 95% haste in that vid? I failed math, btw.

Yea, but cata doesn't help him reach that point; any drk with sam sub and 3 DB merits and a bard and a red mage and 15% in haste gear or effects can hit it.

Except desperate blows is fucking awful

And we can't always rely on soul voice

So the cata is really damn helpful most of the time

[Therin]

I've done this same thing with Algol on KV. Went in with 300% TP, popped Ground Strike, went to use an Icarus Wing and noticed my character's animations glitching out, so I didn't even bother. I had Haste, 2x SV March, LR (with DB), Hasso, Walahra Turban, Homam Hands.

[aurik]

So uh, after much calculation, did Xno achieve 95% haste in that vid? I failed math, btw.

Yea, but cata doesn't help him reach that point; any drk with sam sub and 3 DB merits and a bard and a red mage and 15% in haste gear or effects can hit it.

Except desperate blows is fucking awful

And we can't always rely on soul voice

So the cata is really damn helpful most of the time

Desperate blows is what makes this work; fully meritted, it alone speeds up your attack rate by a factor of 4.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

I will not waste any merits on last resort until they buff it up, on principle.