Jump & High Jump recasts, too long? DRG Musings.

[LD]

For a long while, DRG has had....problems.
We'll leave it at that.

I never really understood why Jump and High Jump recasts were always so long, in the older games, you could jump every turn and Cid's Limit Jumps were always pretty powerful. Thieves can do equal and greater gross damage with SA and/or TA, and those are just 1 minute (I'm aware of the trade-off). Why can't Jump be the same? Dropping 30 seconds off of an ability's downtime can do a lot for DOT (cutting it in half would be better, but odd numbers are kinda difficult to adjust with merits...) With burns being in full swing and DRG still trying to crawl out of a pit of stigma, it seemed like a simple and logical way of helping the job.

I might be over-simplifying this, though. I admit to knowing relatively little about the jobs actual output.
I mean, I'm a MNK so.....yea, but would cutting Jump & High Jump's recasts in half actually break the job?
Seems unlikely, unlikely enough to be stupid, stupid enough for me to not even think about putting this in the advanced forum...

but I felt like discussing it.

People like to come up with lots of gimmicks in the hopes of 'fixing' a job: new spells, new traits, new abilities,
but I think getting back to basics is the best path for a lot of the jobs that are still working on the fringes of the community.all 3 of them

[Shisa]

The jump timers really aren't too bad. In fact, even unmeritted the timers can work to your favor on hnm tp gain alternating between jumps and meditate after weapon skill. While shortened jump timers might be a nice change, it would do little to give the job the help it needs. What is giving DRG the most trouble is what has been plaguing most 2-handed weapon users for quite some time. Let's see if I can make a decent list here...



*^* WS modifiers - Penta is 20% str and 20% dex plain damage modifier. If it were all str or it was a crit hit modifier, penta would be a much more respectable WS. Wheeling is OK, but it needs to ignore more def to be considered a good damage WS. And Impulse Drive... Yeah...

*^* Weapon Selection - Don't get me wrong, Mezraq and up are excellent weapons for DRG, but compared to what is available to other jobs, (Hagun, Maneater, Ridill, Destroyers, Blau, E-Bow, Algol, Tracedim, Perdu, Woodsville, Juggernaut) you can see a disparity that is fairly annoying. A single weapon with a +30 Attack? Sign me up!

*^* Gear Selection - There is some pretty good gear available to DRG. Frankly, Homam is pretty sweet and I lurve my Ace's Helm. However, compare Homam body to plain ol' Hauby and you may notice a slight difference between the two. It's kinda like this for other equipments slots, but not too much to bitch about.

*^* Weapon Delay - This one is as old as two-handed weapons. Hasso has been a nice addition to the DRG arsenal. I find that I now bring /sam to the majority of linkshell events and outings. But, DW vs Hasso? Not exactly an even match.

*^* 2-hand vs IT - The way damage is calculated between two-handed weapons and high defense mobs is a pretty severe problem. DRG does very, very well in Mire and at G-Colibri to the point of doing damage near BB monk and Ridill WAR (I said "near", I'll catch you some day Dirian!) but as soon as the same group of people step in front of an IT+ mob where its def shoots up, a DRG starts to wonder why he's even there. You'll be hitting the mob maybe a little harder than the WAR or MNK or whatever, but only a little and nowhere near as often. It's also here where DRGs curse Rampage's crit hit modifier.




There was a good discussion about this on KI some time ago and these are the only points I remember. If I were to have any single one of those points fixed, it would be the last. But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Thanks for thinking about us DRGs, LD. We DRGs do our best (well, some of us do, anyway) to play a job that we really enjoy and it is kinda bothersome to be slighted because of things outside of our control.

Hmm... I don't think I've filled my monthly quota of emoDRG for this month... I need to go listen to sad music wearing dark purple.

[SephYuyX]

I'm still trying to figure out why your character is getting rammed in the ass by an invisible assailant. brb though, it's kinda hot.

[Max™]

30 second less recast on jumps?

*thinks about how retarded War/Drg is now*





I'm down for it.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

*^* WS modifiers - Penta is 20% str and 20% dex plain damage modifier. If it were all str or it was a crit hit modifier, penta would be a much more respectable WS. Wheeling is OK, but it needs to ignore more def to be considered a good damage WS. And Impulse Drive... Yeah...

It doesn't need a crit modifier, its really just that everything except 'damage varies with tp' is better than 'damage varies with tp' at 100 tp as a balancing factor against how much more TP improves the 'damage varies with tp' wses. Unfortunately with how we tend to do burn parties that means that this method of balancing doesn't really see much practical use.

*^* Weapon Selection - Don't get me wrong, Mezraq and up are excellent weapons for DRG, but compared to what is available to other jobs, (Hagun, Maneater, Ridill, Destroyers, Blau, E-Bow, Algol, Tracedim, Perdu, Woodsville, Juggernaut) you can see a disparity that is fairly annoying. A single weapon with a +30 Attack? Sign me up!

http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/9382

That's what I consider damn good. It is probably hard to get (assumed drop from final Einherjar chamber), but it's a major step up.

btw here's your destroyers: http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/6190

btw don't be jealous of tredecim, it's not nearly as much as many crack it up to be, especially on DRK

*^* Gear Selection - There is some pretty good gear available to DRG. Frankly, Homam is pretty sweet and I lurve my Ace's Helm. However, compare Homam body to plain ol' Hauby and you may notice a slight difference between the two. It's kinda like this for other equipments slots, but not too much to bitch about.p

You can wear ares + homam. Yes, it's hard to get but it's extremely good stuff.

*^* Weapon Delay - This one is as old as two-handed weapons. Hasso has been a nice addition to the DRG arsenal. I find that I now bring /sam to the majority of linkshell events and outings. But, DW vs Hasso? Not exactly an even match.

Uh, you should be doing enough damage with each hit to make up for higher delays. Yes, DW reduces delay more than Hasso but Hasso doesn't reduce TP per hit, which balances it pretty closely out IMO.

*^* 2-hand vs IT - The way damage is calculated between two-handed weapons and high defense mobs is a pretty severe problem. DRG does very, very well in Mire and at G-Colibri to the point of doing damage near BB monk and Ridill WAR (I said "near", I'll catch you some day Dirian!) but as soon as the same group of people step in front of an IT+ mob where its def shoots up, a DRG starts to wonder why he's even there. You'll be hitting the mob maybe a little harder than the WAR or MNK or whatever, but only a little and nowhere near as often. It's also here where DRGs curse Rampage's crit hit modifier.

WRONG

The problem is attack. MNKs do NOT tend to do great on ITs unless they sub WAR or have a ton of attack gear (horo/ochi kote, shura togi, etc.) WAR does do well on ITs because it has berserk. It's the same damage equation independent of how many hands are used and DMG is, in essence, a multiplier of the attack/defense ratio. Just ask a THF how much the DMG buff on their daggers did.

[Akanei]

All I have to say is fuck /sam.

Hasso is a complete waste for DRG. You take that while I keep my 15-22% double attack rate and zerk, or less mediocre weaponskills and jumps on hnms (war or thf).

Edit: Anyway, I think jumps are fine the way they are, for the most part. I think that S-E really just needs to adjust the damage balance between 1 and 2 handers and actually make it balanced.

[Dreampainter]

I don't know if they're too long, mine are fully merited down and i think they're fine. The did reduce the superjump timer which was important for being drgs main defensive ability. It was said already though the problem is attack. Most other DD jobs get large amounts of attack gear which makes thier weaponskill and DoT reach its highest amounts more often than without attack gear. What this means is that everytime you see attack gear for drg you should jump on it, because without subbing war and eating meat (acc setup) or being buffed up by a brd, you are never going to reach the attack cap for a lance. Pentathrust mods do practically nothing, and its only when you start stacking attack and acc instead of str and dex do you see the weaponskills real potential (1-2k).


The other thing with jumps to remember is that they function in a strange way, almost like a weaponskill. They have a vit mod on them, can double attack or triple attack, and they don't give TP to the enemy. Reason for this is because just like bloodpacts, they are direct damage job abilities. They probably could lower jump to 30 seconds and high jump to 1 minute, but I think SE doesn't want to do that with the knowledge that you could jump for up to 1k damage depending on your mods and DA TA procs.


So in the end i think current jump timers are fine, I wouldn't say drg is left out of the whole burn party deal, because i'm invited many times to parties that reach 20k/hour mark. I would say though that you don't see as many drgs seeking for a conventional party anymore, because most of the time they opt to put together wyvern burn parties with drgs they know (1-2 brd/cor 4drg/mage).

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

All I have to say is fuck /sam.

Hasso is a complete waste for DRG. You take that while I keep my 15-22% double attack rate and zerk, or less mediocre weaponskills and jumps on hnms (war or thf).

Edit: Anyway, I think jumps are fine the way they are, for the most part. I think that S-E really just needs to adjust the damage balance between 1 and 2 handers and actually make it balanced.

Hasso is awesome if you have a haste build and get march+haste, not to mention the acc+10, str+5, store tp+15, lolZanshin

AND FUCK I FORGOT MEDITATE LOL

[Michaera]

All I have to say is fuck /sam.

Hasso is a complete waste for DRG. You take that while I keep my 15-22% double attack rate and zerk, or less mediocre weaponskills and jumps on hnms (war or thf).

And if you're TPburning Colibri or Mire or whatever, have fun being a tremendous MP sink when you (a) pull hate and don't have high/super jump timers up or (b) double attack + crit once or twice + berserk + meat food as soon as a mob comes in and the WARs who likely don't even voke (and even if they did) can't get hate off you.. So many of y'all here are obsessed with your damage so much that you neglect the fact that /WAR is like the most vulnerable sub job you can have. No one will argue with you that it's more damage, but having that clutch seigan > third eye when the bird turns to you and readies a pecking flurry that otherwise might do 600-700 damage to you is pretty nice.

What I think would help DRG and two-hand jobs alike is a reevaluation of what the DMG on a weapon actually means. I guess I'm not versed enough in the equations for melee swing damage and WS damage, but supposing all other things were the same, someone with a 94 dmg weapon should do twice as much damage as someone with a 47 dmg weapon. Granted it's hard to set that situation up, but you can get close enough and still have a 5+1 hit WS doing just as much if not more than a 5 hit WS with a weapon with nearly twice as much DMG somewhat consistently, and that when the latter has a bonus against the mob type.

Idk.

Zerk, meat food, STR+ a lot, 94 dmg DRG pentas a bird for 800 avg, melees for 140 avg seems kind of broken when zerk, meat food, STR+ a lot, 49 dmg WAR rampages a bird for 700-800 avg, ~100 melee


Ninja edit: numbers... I guess these could be wrong since I bookmarked this thread years ago but as far as I know it was copypasta from some JP site and put up on Alla. One of yall can probably correct it if you choose. I'm just bored. It already looks kinda shady since I don't see where # of hits is supposed to apply in their formula.

Physical WS Damage Calculation:
WD: Base damage of your WS
D: Base damage of your weapon (e.g., Espadon = 43)
fSTR: difference between your STR and target's VIT
WSC: Secondary attribute like STR_30 (30% of your STR).
fTP: Multiplier (Please see chart below).
PDIF: (your ATK/target?s DEF)

WSC = integer(any secondary attributes) x @

Level @
Lv75... 0.83
Lv74... 0.83
Lv73... 0.84
Lv72... 0.84
Lv67... 0.86 or 0.87 (perhaps 0.87)
Lv60... 0.90 or 0.91 (perhaps 0.90)
Lv40... 0.94
Lv37... 0.94 ? 0.99
Lv31... 0.94 - 0.99

For example, suppose you have 100 STR and 100 MND and use use Swift Blade (STR_30, MND_30).

WSC = integer[(100 x 0.3) + (100 x 0.3)] x @ = integer(60) x @ = 60 x @

@ is 0.86 - 0.87 at LV67 but it's going to decrease as your level is going up. It's 0.83 at LV75

WD = (D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP

I'm not 100% positive, but I think for Sneak Attack with THF main, this is the calculation:
WD = (D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP + DEX + AGI

Actual Damage of WS is then calculated in this way.
Damage = WD * PDIF = ((D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

So let's say.. PDIF = x and is somehow equivalent between the two melee, fSTR = y, WSC = z, and fTP = m (I know they're different for the two weaponskills I'm comparing, but this is to illustrate the point). Logically, you'd assume that a 94 damage weapon should on average do about 1.92 times as more than a 49 damage weapon, but if we plug the numbers in..

DMG94 actual ws damage (call it p) = ((94 + y + z) * m) * x = (94m + my + mz) * x = 94mx + myx + mzx
DMG49 actual ws damage (call it q) = ((49 + y + z) * m) * x = (49m + my + mz) * x = 49mx + myx + mzx

We'd expect p = 1.92q, but... If we suppose for the sake of the example, since trying to do it with the variables is making me feel stupid, that..

x = 5, y = 10, z = 10 and m = 1.0, then..

p = 94mx + myx + mzx = 94*1*5 + 1*10*5 + 1*10*5 = 570
and q = 49mx + myx + mzx = 49*1*5 + 1*10*5 + 1*10*5 = 345

We expect p = 1.92q, and.. 570 =/= 1.92 * 345 = 662.4


So yeah you actually lose out with a higher dmg/higher delay weapon, don't you? Beacuase the damage you do doesn't properly scale with the dmg of your weapon? This would explain why Love Halberd DRGs (dmg 60) often experience numbers similar to your mez/triton's DRGs as well as generally better parse results, and why axe/axe is almost always better than a 2H axe. Oh and why Gae Bolg is a piece of junk. I think, ideally, your actual damage should scale directly. Though idc, I still love my DRG.

[LD]

IIRC, High damage weapons (2 handers) do better on ITs AND get more benefits out of equal amounts of att than lower damage weapons.

The reason MNK & WAR tend to do so well is because they can get a decent amount of att and their weapon damage is resonably high for a 'low-delay' weapon.


Jumps just seem underpowered compared to the old days, and considering how much can happen in the span of a few seconds, the two Jump's recasts seem a bit outdated.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

http://killingifrit.com/page.php?al=dcalc

It's very accurate, you can see what DMG actually does

Double DMG does about double damage, a bit less due to the effect of STR

[Michaera]

Trying to get your link open but Java's owning my comp. Do you have a more accurate damage forumla for WS than mine, then? The way I work it out, it's indirect so that double dmg doesn't net you double ws damage, but I'm always open to corrections if my formulae are wrong.

Ok, the KI thread links to VZX's site with translations from Studio Ghobli, and it says this... (some parts bolded for emphasis)

Physical Damage Calcuation

Physical damage is calculated by multiplying your base damage with attack/defense function
Damage = Base Damage x pDIF


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Base Damage
Base damage is the sum of these following things
Weapon Damage Rating (D)
Ammo Damage (if the calculation is for ranged attack) (aD)
Function of your STR - monster VIT (fSTR or fSTR2)
Weapon Skill secondary attribute modifier (WSC) (when performing weapon skills only)

So, base damage is calculated as follow:
For Normal Attack: Base Damage = D + (aD) + fSTR(2)
For Weapon Skills: Base Damage = floor( (D + (aD) + fSTR(2) + WSC) x fTP)

D is defined as like floor(dmg/9), so you have right there that it doesn't factor in directly, and that 2x weapon dmg doesn't always mean 2x base* damage.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

Michaera, I said ABOUT double. fSTR/9 is likely going to be around 2-4. Seriously. It's not that big of a difference for normal melee hits and complaining that you're hitting for 140 when the war is hitting for 100 shows that there's something ELSE wrong here.

It is true that it doesn't have nearly as huge effect on WS but the TP gain rate isn't that big of a difference anymore with higher delay, with jumps and haste it should be more than sufficient enough.

[Michaera]

Michaera, I said ABOUT double. fSTR/9 is likely going to be around 2-4. Seriously. It's not that big of a difference for normal melee hits and complaining that you're hitting for 140 when the war is hitting for 100 shows that there's something ELSE wrong here.

For Weapon Skills: Base Damage = floor( (D + (aD) + fSTR(2) + WSC) x fTP)

So then you're saying fSTR and WSC are both negligible, such that the WS formula is damage = floor(D*fTP) as well? WSC by the way includes all your secondary modifiers and stuff.

I think you neglected that (the ws) side of my argument. I'm not as concerned about the melee hits as I am frustrated by WS damage design.

Btw fSTR/9 wasn't mentioned anywhere..

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

err not fSTR/9 i meant DMG/9, sorry

I did NOT neglect the WS side, I just don't think 2h should have higher WS damage than 1h as a rule. The WS damage I'd think would be possible to be good with some ares and hecatomb, people just don't give DRG ares so it's hard to know.

Also DRG itself should never do equivelent damage to other melees, you DO have a wyvern.

[Akanei]

Hasso is awesome if you have a haste build and get march+haste, not to mention the acc+10, str+5, store tp+15, lolZanshin

AND FUCK I FORGOT MEDITATE LOL

Berserk is awesome if you have the same haste build, get march+haste, not to mention can still use attack food, not see a change of misses, and can double attack every possible thing you can do while making the most out of your d90+, whereas with hasso you see a marginal change in your dps because 10% on top of 41-42% haste means nearly crap in a merit party. Oh, lets not forget that mighty 5 str, which puts you at only +3 above subbing war.

Edit: I forgot meditate, fuck, that 60 tp every 3 minutes. . . game over.

And if you're TPburning Colibri or Mire or whatever, have fun being a tremendous MP sink when you (a) pull hate and don't have high/super jump timers up or (b) double attack + crit once or twice + berserk + meat food as soon as a mob comes in and the WARs who likely don't even voke (and even if they did) can't get hate off you.. So many of y'all here are obsessed with your damage so much that you neglect the fact that /WAR is like the most vulnerable sub job you can have. No one will argue with you that it's more damage, but having that clutch seigan > third eye when the bird turns to you and readies a pecking flurry that otherwise might do 600-700 damage to you is pretty nice.

Pull hate without super jump up? Blasphemy. Unless you, for some god-forsaken reason, chose not to merit it, you have a 2:30 SJ timer. Considering either a mob SHOULD be dead within moments after using your ws, or have SJ OR HJ up to get it off you, you're either (a) playing like a walmart DD and throwing out crap like an idiot or (b) meriting with said walmart DDs.

Seriously, it isn't hard to NOT get hit by that garbage 90% of the time. It's only a vulnerable sub if you refuse to put a thought process into it.

[Akanei]

Know what, I concede. I just realized as a DD, I shouldn't have to think about how to play my job and just press buttons.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

Hasso is awesome if you have a haste build and get march+haste, not to mention the acc+10, str+5, store tp+15, lolZanshin

AND FUCK I FORGOT MEDITATE LOL

Berserk is awesome if you have the same haste build, get march+haste, not to mention can still use attack food, not see a change of misses, and can double attack every possible thing you can do while making the most out of your d90+, whereas with hasso you see a marginal change in your dps because 10% on top of 41-42% haste means nearly crap in a merit party. Oh, lets not forget that mighty 5 str, which puts you at only +3 above subbing war.

lmfao@bolded part

Seriously, look up how haste works

[Michaera]

err not fSTR/9 i meant DMG/9, sorry

I did NOT neglect the WS side, I just don't think 2h should have higher WS damage than 1h as a rule. The WS damage I'd think would be possible to be good with some ares and hecatomb, people just don't give DRG ares so it's hard to know.

Also DRG itself should never do equivelent damage to other melees, you DO have a wyvern.

The last line is totally true, I do forget that, and I think it would be kinda screwy if it did effectively double. It's just a shame that I'm paying for this 94 dmg weapon with a 478 delay and not getting the kinda results out of it I'd appreciate. If we had better sword skill, goodsword/Joy would be hot.

Pull hate without super jump up? Blasphemy. Unless you, for some god-forsaken reason, chose not to merit it, you have a 2:30 SJ timer. Considering either a mob SHOULD be dead within moments after using your ws, or have SJ OR HJ up to get it off you, you're either (a) playing like a walmart DD and throwing out crap like an idiot or (b) meriting with said walmart DDs.

I -do- have it capped and I still get hate. And it doesn't always take a WS to do it. And I do party with decent DDs. The majority of the time though you aren't going to party with exceptional DDs, anyways, and it's just a shame that you can't carelessly do all the damage you'd like to do. I'm a proponent of WAR sub and being smart about it but 99% of the DRGs out there are retarded and should also consider the other benefits of SAM sub rather than just subbing WAR and soaking up their healer's MP. Or worse, just dying and killing chains that way.

Edit AGAIN: Akanei, do you also merit HJ's timer? Does that work well for you? I went 5/5 spirit link/SJ before everyone started partying at colibri and was debating changing. :/

[Akanei]

lmfao@bolded part

Seriously, look up how haste works

Look up how hasso works, then take into account the difference of delays.

Just to save you the time, though:
492*.9*.59 = 261.3 / 60 = 4.4
492*.59 = 290.3 / 60 = 4.8

Are you gonna see that magic .4 while constantly engaging and disengaging and doing jas and ws? No.

Edit @ Michaera: I did, for a while, but I ended up switching them over to jump recast for HNMs on /thf. It was noticable in merits, but it really didn't make a big change in the HNM environment, so I took what was better suited for it.

Edit Dos: I'm not refuting the utility of /sam, but I really, REALLY did not like the output of the job, comparatively to /war.