Jump & High Jump recasts, too long? DRG Musings.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

ok, I didn't know hasso worked differently, my mistake.

My point anyways is that saying /SAM does have its uses.

[Michaera]

Edit Dos: I'm not refuting the utility of /sam, but I really, REALLY did not like the output of the job, comparatively to /war.

Agreed. :/ It's a shame. It's better (in meripo, strictly speaking) than NIN and mage subs, as far as damage goes, on par with THF sub for me if not a lil bit better, but nothing compares to the damage WAR puts out. I wanna borrow someone's Novia one day and see if that helps a bit.

[Starr]

I wouldn't say no to them reducing Jump recast times but I think there's much more they could do that would have a bigger effect before they do it.

My views on DRG:
*SAM sub doesn't put out enough damage because you have to full time Seigan and WAR sub takes too much damage, this is my biggest problem with DRG and the only reason I just merit on WAR.
*Penta Thrust would be terribly broken with TP-Crit Rate, I think it would be much better to make it fTP 1 at all TP, leave the modifiers as they are and make it TP->Accuracy so you could put in more STR and Attack (Hecatomb Harness -> Ares Cuirass for example).
*Wheeling Thrust, the DEF ignore is fine but increase fTP quite a bit, 1.75 now so make it 2.25 (2.5?), 800-1000 for SAWS shouldn't be too much to ask for when every other job can do it.
*Impulse Drive.... just fix it any way because it's lame, set fTP and make TP->Double Attack like 10% 15% 20%, that would be nice.

[orinthia]

I mostly wish penta's element was better... friend and I had a small discussion a while back when sonoma made the SE suggestion thread (and we guessed right on the pop item for ulli lol) about a better element for penta to make it more desirable from lv49 onward.

After looking at many elements and combinations of lower lvl skillchain potentials, giving it the same spot in the chart as Raging Rush would make it extremely versatile. Would then work with rampage, raging/avalanche/spinning axe, guillotine, slice, dark harvest (heh), blade:jin, :retsu, de/evis, raging fists, slug/winder, tachi:enpi, :jinpu, :gekko, :yuki, vorpal/swift/fast/seraph blade, sickle moon (heh), hard/power slash, frost/freezebite, raging rush, sturmwind, shield break, as well as work with itself and all other polearm ws except wheeling :(.

It could open and close reverb, impact, indur, and frag skillchains for lowbie lvls or at random in tp burns. Only one job isn't too friendly with this and that's thf since de/evis have to open for it. Also, many of these would have penta ending (a few interchangeable), which means your wyvern actually gets a chance to mb the breath attack (they did give that ability to them a long time ago right?).

That'd be the one thing I'd give to drg and polearm in general. I know skillchains aren't used at all when meriting but they're still used for lvling, especially when you're stuck having to exp on odd, old, or IT++ things because other camps are crowded. Allowing penta to open/close for ice and thunder mb I think would be quite a nice change.

[LD]

I wouldn't say no to them reducing Jump recast times but I think there's much more they could do that would have a bigger effect before they do it.

But that's the thing, a big effect isn't needed.
After WS changes and maybe Jump adjustments, you go into loLancet terrirory.

[Kaylia]

Are you gonna see that magic .4 while constantly engaging and disengaging and doing jas and ws? No.

"Change target" + "tab" = no downtime.

Idc if Hasso is better or worse than berserk, I've no clue, but your reply doesn't really work either.

[Ryko]

"Change target" + "tab" = no downtime.

That said I think he just meant the act of changing targets in general.

Don't mind me though, I'd never level DRG.

[Rocl]

"Change target" + "tab" = no downtime.

That said I think he just meant the act of changing targets in general.

Don't mind me though, I'd never level DRG.

Except

YOU ALREADY HAVE

[Kkel]

Why would you bring DRG to a merit point party in the first place? >_>

Don't get me wrong, i love the job, but in all the time it takes to muse over job changes and daydream about pentathrust modifiers you could probably have a merit-machine job capped and thrashing your DRG on every front.

The whole "change target" + "tab" thing doesn't really work either. Any decent merit BRD should have the next mob already in line-of-sight and if you're not bright enough to line yourself up for the next incoming mob you should probably just stick to Besieged for XP.

[Akanei]

Are you gonna see that magic .4 while constantly engaging and disengaging and doing jas and ws? No.

"Change target" + "tab" = no downtime.

Idc if Hasso is better or worse than berserk, I've no clue, but your reply doesn't really work either.

Considering you didn't discredit 2/3 of the argument, my reply is still sound.

Second, you're not always gonna get an opportunity to change targets, especially if said options above are what kills the mob.

Edit: <<<<< Merit machine'd MNK goooooooooooooooooooo

[LD]

"Change target" + "tab" = no downtime.

That said I think he just meant the act of changing targets in general.

Don't mind me though, I'd never level DRG.

Except

YOU ALREADY HAVE

DUN DUN MOTHERFUCKING DUNNN! Reverb....Reverb....Reverb....
I has a thread. :d


I think I'd level DRG seriously if it were how I remembered it from older FF games, i.e. more Jump oriented.
All the job really has to distinguish itself from other melee is a blue pet and a couple of JAs, the value of which seem to be marginalized in practical application (read: parties) due to current game mechanics & dynamics and relatively minor, fixable limitations.

A good example is High Jump, the few times a DRG actually gets hate, both of their hate shedding abilities are on a 3 minute timer. Shouldn't the less effective one be at least half the recast of the superior JA? Super Jump at 3 minutes is fine, I wouldn't change it, but if the idea of those two jumps is to manage hate by lowering it, couldn't you achieve that end better if you could use the less effective skill more than once a fight (with a 90 second recast, I think I'm being generous there)?

Lowering Jump's recast is mostly for the purpose of allowing DRG to do more damage while attempting to bring the job back to the its roots, two things I believe it needs desperately. The fact that it doesn't have an ability where it stays in the air for a LONG ass time and does damage proportionate to that time pains me deeply. What pains me slightly less is that what most people believe needs to be fixed is the job's melee and WS damage when, traditionally, that was a somewhat smaller part of it's overall arsenal. Don't get me wrong, Polearm WSs are kinda off and tweaking 2H effectiveness would be good (GAxe4WARz ;-;), but as soon as I saw that DRG didn't get heavy armor, I knew it was in a different vein. It wasn't meant to be a pure damage powerhouse like DRK or a DOT maniac like MNK. Maybe JA damage should be a bigger part of DRG's damage, I might even go as far to say that Jump's recast should be lowered to 30 seconds, instead of by 30 seconds. A Jump isn't different from a normal swing, except for the fact that it has a mod and can therefore do more damage. That bit of instant, controllable damage could help a job actually compare to the powerhouses like WAR & MNK.

Why would you bring DRG to a merit point party in the first place? >_>

Don't get me wrong, i love the job, but in all the time it takes to muse over job changes and daydream about pentathrust modifiers you could probably have a merit-machine job capped and thrashing your DRG on every front.

That's kind of the point, asshole.
To make DRG more acceptable, so there wont be 50 million MNKs who, when they used to be BLM, were too busy telling me how much my job sucked to actually MB on the SCs I had to research.
Now they tell me how awwweeesome my job is when they go to an HNM on one of their 4 mage jobs.

[Starr]

They should make a Group 2 merit that makes Super Jump hit on landing and do double damage, thats for 1/3 then the next 2 could do, idk, Accuracy or damage up, that would be made of win.

[LD]

Well, the idea is not to tack on additional things when it's already a fine ability at its core.
Coming down to do damage after a Super Jump (especially a large amount of it) is kind of counter-productive and against the idea of the move.

If they ever make Hyper Jump in any form, it should probably be a lvl 60 JA.

[Liam]

Hasso to me, was an insult to dragoons. It is a great idea, then they made it sam only. So although nice for dragoons, you give up about as much as you get when you sub /sam over /war.

So you basically are not improving yourself, you are just adding some utility and flexibility.

Now, if they made hasso a inherent trait for sam, drg and maybe drk, the typical 2 hand weapon jobs, then you would see a great increase to dragoon. Ability to have the hasso and still get /war sub. I think just that could make them a more viable DD job.

Maybe fix the "almost always resisted" wyvern breath.

But if you look at alot of the history, and the equipment SE adds for dragoon, alot of it is for flexibility, alot of +mp, defensive type gear, defensive changes (super jump timer adjustment) etc.

So it won't ever happen putting dragoon at the same level as monk, because of the flexibilty dragoon possesses.

All monk does is DD, like ranger. Those two jobs should be at the top of the pile due to this. If a job like Drg, pup, bst ever became on par with monk and war then why level anything else. You get the solo ability and the damage. Makes monk and war useless.

Problem is FFXI players, alot of them, really don't know how to utilize most jobs as they were intended. We play a warped version of what SE envisioned.

[GSDragoon]

Why would you bring DRG to a merit point party in the first place? >_>

Don't get me wrong, i love the job, but in all the time it takes to muse over job changes and daydream about pentathrust modifiers you could probably have a merit-machine job capped and thrashing your DRG on every front.

The whole "change target" + "tab" thing doesn't really work either. Any decent merit BRD should have the next mob already in line-of-sight and if you're not bright enough to line yourself up for the next incoming mob you should probably just stick to Besieged for XP.

No kidding... Most of the time I get an invite on drg, the party sucks so bad that the exp rate is less than what I can solo...

[Kkel]

That's kind of the point, asshole. So on and so forth... wah

Before you get your panties in a bunch, glance down at what passes for my sig. I have the job leveled, hell, the only reason i even started playing this game was to be a DRG. Like i said, i love the job but when you've been a DRG since pretty much the beginning you see a lot come and go from people who idly wish wonderful things for the job. It's all well and glorious to dream, but it won't actually get you anywhere.

The dynamic of the game is such that some jobs are just better than others at certain things. You want to be the chart-topping ace of a typical, tp burn, merit party, level a different job because while you may be a great DRG, all the wishing in the world isn't going to get you there. So instead of wondering about all the joyous things that could be added make DRG just like every other job you could try applying what's already there and either level another job for TP burn or go thrash the crap out of Puks solo and not worry about what other people think about your job.

Do you play DRG to impress other people or because you enjoy the job?

[Kaylia]

Are you gonna see that magic .4 while constantly engaging and disengaging and doing jas and ws? No.

"Change target" + "tab" = no downtime.

Idc if Hasso is better or worse than berserk, I've no clue, but your reply doesn't really work either.

Considering you didn't discredit 2/3 of the argument, my reply is still sound.

Second, you're not always gonna get an opportunity to change targets, especially if said options above are what kills the mob.

Edit: <<<<< Merit machine'd MNK goooooooooooooooooooo

I was just pointing out there is no downtime between fight when you swap target or autotarget. The time you save with haste still count, 20 hits in 100 sec or 20 hits in 96sec has an impact on how fast fight go. you won't do more dmg till you hit for the 21th times, but you still did your first 20 hits faster. Of course, this is excluding the damage you sacrifice by using haste gear/JA/song instead of something else, but your post doesn't mention that either.

Obviously, the haste bonus won't do shit on WS and JA...I'm not sure why I should find an argument to disprove that. Simply stating something obvious doesn't mean one is better than the other tho.

80-100 atk 60% of the time with berserk and 10% double attack VS 5acc/5str/10% haste/15%tp gain/zanshin/meditate

Damage wise, I still think war sub would win, but it's less constant with berserk downtime, and it give you no defensive crap.

[LD]

That's kind of the point, asshole. So on and so forth... wah

Before you get your panties in a bunch, glance down at what passes for my sig. I have the job leveled, hell, the only reason i even started playing this game was to be a DRG. Like i said, i love the job but when you've been a DRG since pretty much the beginning you see a lot come and go from people who idly wish wonderful things for the job. It's all well and glorious to dream, but it won't actually get you anywhere.

The dynamic of the game is such that some jobs are just better than others at certain things. You want to be the chart-topping ace of a typical, tp burn, merit party, level a different job because while you may be a great DRG, all the wishing in the world isn't going to get you there. So instead of wondering about all the joyous things that could be added make DRG just like every other job you could try applying what's already there and either level another job for TP burn or go thrash the crap out of Puks solo and not worry about what other people think about your job.

Do you play DRG to impress other people or because you enjoy the job?

I play Monk, buddy, and I picked it at a time when it had roughly the same stigma DRG has now.
The fact is every job should get equal treatment. A job should always excel in a certain area more than another, but the sum of a job's value should equal that of any other. Forgetting DRG just so you can merit better is one of the most asinine things I've heard. If you did that, there may as well not be more than one melee job. Granted, maybe PUP shouldn't exist, but it, like DRG, had a good concept that just wasn't executed properly to begin with. However, changes can always be made to make it more comparable to the top tier jobs.

I don't think DRG is that bad, I don't think it's that good either. The harping that tends to emanate from their boards has long since lost any effect on me. Even if they made a lot of good changes, I still might not level it. But how can you just forget a job? If it deserved to be created, it deserves to be improved. The fact that you disregard that and apparently use 4 other jobs says to me that you, not I, leveled the job for what it could do for you socially and not for enjoyment. The same type of person that follows what seems most powerful (useful) at the time.

I only have one 75 job as of my writing this, but I am currently close to getting my second.
The only reason I'm even bothering with another is because I made sure beforehand that I thoroughly enjoyed it, no other consideration entered my head.
Can you honestly say the same when you're essentially talking about disposing of a job you used to play?


THIS IS A WAR BETWEEN THE CLASSES. UP WITH THE WORKING MAN (Melee), DOWN WITH THE OLIGARCHY (Mages)!
DEATH TO THE BOURGEOISIE!

ALL GLORY TO THE PROLETARIAT!!

[Max™]

Having had lots of small groups doing stuff like farming Sea with a Drg/Whm keeping several dorky melees alive, I have a new appreciation for the job.

As for solo, Mnk's soro well in the right situation, just that Drg solos better in a whole lot more situations.

[GSDragoon]

Having had lots of small groups doing stuff like farming Sea with a Drg/Whm keeping several dorky melees alive, I have a new appreciation for the job.

As for solo, Mnk's soro well in the right situation, just that Drg solos better in a whole lot more situations.

Yeah, many times there's always plenty of DD. You can never have too much support or healing power. Subbing WHM elimnated being an MP sponge while doing some damage and helping keep others alive at the same time. Really wish SE would stop adding timmed zones. Would make this game much less dependant uppon certain jobs all the time.