To the Maat's Cap owners.

[aurik]

Sound argument such as "maxed ridill with double-attack merits"? Correct math like "+25 accuracy is 5% hit rate"? Every time you open your mouth you discredit yourself a little bit more; the fact that you can't admit that you were wrong is just icing on the cake.

[divisortheory]

Double Attack merits would obviously not be detrimental since it checks Weapon multi-attack first, and if it fails then checks the trait. It would still provide a boost in situations where the weapon multi-attack did not proc, as well as on the offhand.

Oh yeah? How have you figured that out?

This test says otherwise, DA (apparently from any source) is detrimental for your Ridill performances, I just wish someone would test the proc rate on a neutral job so we could figure out the real percentages since I only have Warrior, Ninja and Paladin at 75.

Thanks for actually contributing something useful. Is time marked anywhere on that plot? Seems to me the x axis is an integral value x representing the x'th hit in a sequence of hits.

Sound argument such as "maxed ridill with double-attack merits"? Correct math like "+25 accuracy is 5% hit rate"? Every time you open your mouth you discredit yourself a little bit more; the fact that you can't admit that you were wrong is just icing on the cake.

And you further emphasize that you have no evidence of your own other than that you just want to be right so you just keep saying it. Did you learn that in law school?

[aurik]

Sound argument such as "maxed ridill with double-attack merits"? Correct math like "+25 accuracy is 5% hit rate"? Every time you open your mouth you discredit yourself a little bit more; the fact that you can't admit that you were wrong is just icing on the cake.

And you further emphasize that you have no evidence of your own other than that you just want to be right so you just keep saying it.

You're providing all the evidence I need to make my point.

[Alyriel]

I'm sorry Kalia, you know I love ya, but... >.>

You shouldn't be bitching at people for making educated guesses (regarding suppa in this case). How long did you not have a properly leveled WAR sub for your Mandau THF? The answer you gave, when asked why, was because you didn't enjoy the playstyle of 75THF/25WAR(or whatever level it was) you wouldn't enjoy the playstyle of 75THF/37WAR. In this case your educated guess was correct. It's possible for Aurik's educated guess to be correct as well.

From an outsider's (read: lurker's) view it's pretty easy to see that you both (Aurik and Kalia[DivisorTheory]) both make valid points. Both of you have made considerable contributions (of theory and testing and who knows how much time) to what's now basically considered fact in a number of varied topics.

Personally, I think that Aurik is wrong in assuming that just because LordWafik doesn't come close in the parse to his Spharai MNK, that -ANY- Mandau THF can't. That's a very limited sample size (1), which with the amount of testing, and berating of poorly done testing, that Aurik does, he should know.

However, Kalia, I don't know if I would consider most of the Ridill WARs on our server a base line for comparison for the average (not retarded) Ridill WAR. You seem to make a fairly large assumption that our endgame (credible or not ) players on Valefor aren't lacking to some degree or another. Whether it be incomplete merits, non ideal merit selection for Ridill WAR, lack of some key gear(s), mediocre (or worse) playing skill, or any combination of those, I can't seem to recall even a single Ridill WAR that's at the top of his game.

If you want to compare Mandau THF to Ridill WAR, it's not a valid comparison to take the (almost) perfectly geared/merited/skilled Mandau THF, and compare it to the average Ridill WAR. If you do consider that a valid comparison, then I submit that DRG can outparse Ridill WAR on non-piercing weak mobs. That is if I can pick the DRG, Qoos (might have mispelled) has complete Homam, Gugnir, Divisor Ring, Toreador's Ring, Love Torque, Speed Belt, and I don't know how many pieces of HQ heca. Saying that DRG > Ridill WAR is obviously a false statement. However, saying that a severely decked out DRG can outparse the average Ridill WAR, has much more merit.

In short: You're both right, now sit down.

[divisortheory]

If you want to compare Mandau THF to Ridill WAR, it's not a valid comparison to take the (almost) perfectly geared/merited/skilled Mandau THF, and compare it to the average Ridill WAR.

The "average" ones are the ones who are getting their asses kicked in the parse. The good ones are the ones who I'm parsing equal to. The one who matched me that I mentioned on a previous page was indeed perfectly geared. As demonstrated above, had he changed his merits from Double Attack to Aggressor his accuracy would have gone up around 1.8%, and as such his total amount of damage would have gone up a bit less, somewhere around 1.5% maybe. Divided over 4 melees in a party, it would have gone up less than 1%. Now, considering that I always parse 1% less than Archain in 4-melee merit parties, it follows that Archain still woudl have outparsed this person, with capped sword, capped axe, capped berserk, capped agressor, and all the best gear.

QED

[aurik]

You're still using a DA-ridill war as your gold standard.

[thestalkmore]

Ok, I'm here to butt in temporarily because half of this entire thread is revolving around the fact that Kalia likes to pull stuff out of his ass. The WAR he's citing that outparsed him is Takaya, a tarutaru in my linkshell who does NOT have DA merited. Kalia just said that because he was guessing and supposed that good ridill WAR's merit DA (lol).

That aside, I have seen many eburk/ridill warriors lose in parses to Kalia in parties I have formed. Archain is the other thief that Kalia is referring to who always tends to outparse him by about 1-2% for no apparent reason whatsoever and the two of them have both outperformed a smattering of ridill WAR's. I'm not here to assert that a completely perfect Mandau THF will outparse the WAR in my shell with full armada/ridill/speed belt/etc but the claim that a Mandau THF of exceptional talent cannot hold a candle to a decent ridill WAR is ludicrous. Stop basing your arguments on the naive presupposition that because Lordwafik may be one of the most publicized, contributing, and critically acclaimed thieves of the end game FFXI community, that he will put out the most damage.

[divisortheory]

Meh, thought he did. So anyway, argument squashed. But let's see how long before someone says it's still invalid because he's a Taru.

I still want to parse against the Armada, Speed Belt, etc WAR you mentioned but I'm sure I'd lose by more than the margin of error. Although I wonder if that would still be the case if I had the extra 4% of haste and a few accuracy that I'm still missing from gear, as well as full (any) hecatomb +1.

[Stolin]

(sort of off topic, but i'd like to point out)lol@trying to make this a ridill vs mandau competition.

I think this is more of divisortheory's attempt to justify wasting all of that time on thief than anything else.

A thief isn't ever going to be top dog in a traditional merit party, because A.a thief can't voke and B. it takes retardedly good equipment to even keep up with DDs who aren't even top dogs themselves. Mandau isn't going to make you the best DD on anything that matters or anything people care about.

...if I had that extra 4% haste and a few accuracy that i'm still missing...

Also, leveling another job will be much more beneficial to your character than wasting all of your time trying to get that extra 1 haste or 2 str or whatever.

[divisortheory]

Also, leveling another job will be much more beneficial to your character than wasting all of your time trying to get that extra 1 haste or 2 str or whatever.

I don't disagree. To be honest I have no interest in obtaining Hecatomb+1, and I'm making no effort to obtain a speed/velocious belt either.

Regarding your comment about wasting time with THF, it's hard to convince someone that something they had fun doing was time wasted.

[DrObvious]

Hecatomb is better for WS too.

Unless you're a THF and SA or TA is involved.

Hecatomb is bound to be comparable (or better) with just Sneak Attack, its 5 more str and only 2 less dex, 1 less if you go for hq.

THF WS and Sneak attack don't have a STR mod, only the fSTR calculation. Greater Colibri, for example, have a VIT of just 67. The upper cap for the best Thief weapons (P. Harpe and Mandau) is 12 for fSTR. As long as your dSTR (STR-VIT) is at least 20, Thief will cap out on fSTR vs. Greater Colibri. That means just 87 STR.

Str cap occurs at dSTR = (14 + WRANK x2) x2. That is over double the str requirement you listed.

Now back to your reguarly scheduled e-peen argument.

[rezn0r]

if you posted in this thread (except for myself), you're a credible endgame player

Regarding your comment about wasting time with THF, it's hard to convince someone that something they had fun doing was time wasted.

hell yeah. i could care less about multi-page arguments about parses and which relic makes the ridill-war a tiny bit limper in their pants, but that quote right there is the fucking truth.

to those that caught it: congrats

[Stolin]

if you posted in this thread (except for myself), you're a credible endgame player

Regarding your comment about wasting time with THF, it's hard to convince someone that something they had fun doing was time wasted.

hell yeah. i could care less about multi-page arguments about parses and which relic makes the ridill-war a tiny bit limper in their pants, but that quote right there is the fucking truth.

to those that caught it: congrats

I'd agree with you if it weren't for the fact that he is making "[an arguement] about equipment, parses, and which relic makes the ridill-war a tiny bit limper in their pants."

Which is needless to say contradictory.

[archibaldcrane]

Hecatomb is better for WS too.

Unless you're a THF and SA or TA is involved.

Hecatomb is bound to be comparable (or better) with just Sneak Attack, its 5 more str and only 2 less dex, 1 less if you go for hq.

THF WS and Sneak attack don't have a STR mod, only the fSTR calculation. Greater Colibri, for example, have a VIT of just 67. The upper cap for the best Thief weapons (P. Harpe and Mandau) is 12 for fSTR. As long as your dSTR (STR-VIT) is at least 20, Thief will cap out on fSTR vs. Greater Colibri. That means just 87 STR.

Str cap occurs at dSTR = (14 + WRANK x2) x2. That is over double the str requirement you listed.
Now back to your reguarly scheduled e-peen argument.

Yeah, he's right, I fucked it up. (Maat's Cap is still > Hecatomb Cap for THF WS when SA or TA is involved though - barely).

[aurik]

Ok, I'm here to butt in temporarily because half of this entire thread is revolving around the fact that Kalia likes to pull stuff out of his ass.

Yes, I think he's established that.

the claim that a Mandau THF of exceptional talent cannot hold a candle to a decent ridill WAR is ludicrous.

Nobody here is making that claim. Are you?

[thestalkmore]

Ok, I'm here to butt in temporarily because half of this entire thread is revolving around the fact that Kalia likes to pull stuff out of his ass.

Yes, I think he's established that.

the claim that a Mandau THF of exceptional talent cannot hold a candle to a decent ridill WAR is ludicrous.

Nobody here is making that claim. Are you?

Congratulations captain semantics.

[Swatt]

wow. dick swinging contest.

[aurik]

Ok, I'm here to butt in temporarily because half of this entire thread is revolving around the fact that Kalia likes to pull stuff out of his ass.

Yes, I think he's established that.

the claim that a Mandau THF of exceptional talent cannot hold a candle to a decent ridill WAR is ludicrous.

Nobody here is making that claim. Are you?

Congratulations captain semantics.

You must be really proud of beating the crap out of that straw man.

[divisortheory]

the claim that a Mandau THF of exceptional talent cannot hold a candle to a decent ridill WAR is ludicrous.

Nobody here is making that claim.

Except you.

late response, but a good mandau thf will parse similiarly to a ridill war on non pierce-weak mobs as well.

No it doesn't. Sorry. Few percent behind.

[Sev]

the claim that a Mandau THF of exceptional talent cannot hold a candle to a decent ridill WAR is ludicrous.

Nobody here is making that claim.

Except you.

late response, but a good mandau thf will parse similiarly to a ridill war on non pierce-weak mobs as well.

No it doesn't. Sorry. Few percent behind.

A few percent behind =/= Can not hold a candle.