Sicko

[Andarvi]

I really don't see the government taking on a huge and expensive responsibility like national health care which would put an even larger strain on the national budget which we've gleefully frittered away in war while at the same time displacing a billion dollar industry that kicks back plenty of benefits to our legislators already.

Health care is a booming industry, throwing that away to help a bunch of poor people isn't happening, not in this country.

Sadly this is very true. The first thing that needs to happen is a new administration headed by a group of individuals who see the greater goal and are willing to sacrifice their own personal gain for the betterment of the country. Problem is there arent many of these people around.

[archibaldcrane]

I was declined for health insurance yesterday, because of my "medical history". I work in television production, jumping from show to show. I have no opportunity to obtain health insurance through my jobs since they are changing constantly, so I applied for private-pay health insurance.

I'm a 26-year old 5'11 175 lb. white male. I work out two or three times per week. 3 of my 4 grandparents are still alive late into their 80's. My only listed medical condition on my application in the "last 3 years" that I received treatment for was an ear infection 2.5 years ago.

This isn't just about poor people...

[Po]

sigh /comfort man

Yea this is seriously a scary thing.

[Devek]

I heard a funny thing.

Michael Moore was supposed to be on Larry King Live the other day.. he was bumped to this Friday because they interviewed Paris Hilton instead.

Obviously Ms Hilton was better for ratings.

My general theory is that nothing will get better until things get a lot worse.

http://www.reuters.com/article/filmNews ... 8220070628

[Maguspk]

I haven't seen it mentioned yet so I'll go ahead and say it.

I think it's fucked up that people think it's fucked up that the healthcare companies care about making a profit. How else would they manage to pay their employees and make enough to pay for the actual stuff they do cover. It never seemed like people were flat out denied under existing coverage unless there was some underlying reason, like that scene about forms not filled out properly. It may seem underhanded to take such a minute thing and deny coverage based on it but I think it's fair sadly.

Arguing that healthcare companies need to be like saints and just pay for everything is kinda ridiculous. They are a company like anything else in America, they will go out of their way to make the profit so that they can strive in our economy. That's just how we're set up financially. If you're willing to gamble and pay that low monthly fee on the off chance if you get deathly sick they may pay for it, then go ahead and gamble. I think MFPerms approach is much more realistic however. That isn't to say nationwide health insurance wouldn't be a bad thing, but then we'd have people bitching about taxes being higher to pay for it instead of magically being insured without having to pay for it.

I've never had a run in with Healthcare not going my way so I don't think I'm biased, but I am also pretty inexperienced in what you actually "sign up for" when you agree to pay that monthly insurance fee, or when you accept that % out of your paycheck to cover healthcare or w/e.

[Beckwin]

Dude, it's healthcare. You're supposed to be a saint. People's health and lives shouldn't be a commodity, I don't give a fuck if it's a capitalist society or not.

[Maguspk]

Dude, it's healthcare. You're supposed to be a saint. People's health and lives shouldn't be a commodity, I don't give a fuck if it's a capitalist society or not.

What you're describing isn'twhat an insurance company is about though. I agree healthcare shouldn't be how it is setup in America, but saying the Healthcare companies are wrong for wanting to make a profit is just as wrong.

Setting up more taxes so that we can have national healthcare would be freakin awesome, but expecting a health insurance company to work that way is kind of foolish. That's all I'm saying.

[MF Perm]

So me an my fiancee watched it tonight.


I don't think I've been this upset in my entire life. I'm just brimming and we're wavering on the edge of activism or expatriating.

For all the negative nancy's out there that just want to cry, spare the bullshit about good riddance or whatever dumb shit you have to say. I don't think it's that I don't have the balls to make the sacrifice it would take to try and make change, I'm just not sure the average American that doesn't have the balls to do this isn't worth it. I think that's a burden I'll have to live with for the rest of my life, for all the compassion I try to have. Like the saying goes, it's easier to have love for humanity than it is to have love for your neighbor.


We'd already been considering going to Korea, so we may end up there. But Europe isn't looking so bad anymore now lol.


I just don't think it's possible to see change here, the system is too mired in profit. We're basically economic slaves, our worth is only as good as the money we can make someone in this country. I'm just amazed that we put up with this for so long. I wish I could be a "good American" and fight the good fight, I just don't have it in me I don't think.


Oh well, at least I can admit that I'm too pussy to try to do the right thing in the inevitable face of failure.

[Ivve]

I've never had a run in with Healthcare not going my way so I don't think I'm biased, but I am also pretty inexperienced in what you actually "sign up for" when you agree to pay that monthly insurance fee, or when you accept that % out of your paycheck to cover healthcare or w/e.

No offense, but ignorance of the situation does not make you unbiased. It makes you uninformed.

[Maguspk]

I've never had a run in with Healthcare not going my way so I don't think I'm biased, but I am also pretty inexperienced in what you actually "sign up for" when you agree to pay that monthly insurance fee, or when you accept that % out of your paycheck to cover healthcare or w/e.

No offense, but ignorance of the situation does not make you unbiased. It makes you uninformed.

I think the definition of "run in" I was going for was in the context of the conflicts from the movie. Of course I've been to a hospital before and my healthcare covered it in full and I never had any problems, "run in"s. I think I would be biased if I were to have had a close family member denied necessary healthcare or I myself had healthcare denied me; of course then you can say I'm biased to favor the system.

Examples, I've had to have oral surgery, paid totally by my insurance, only thing I had to pay for was a % of the laughing gas because it wasn't considered necessary but I wanted it anway. Something to the effect of a few hundred dollars for a thousands of dollars in surgery.

I went on vacation in the Bahamas, didn't wear ear plugs and came back with a bad ear infection. Medication and treatments covered in full.

I had an abcess tooth a few months ago, went to the hospital got treated/got my meds paid for in full.

I've never had a problem. Maybe I have good "insurance" maybe I am just lucky. Either way, I think people who expect the system to cater to everyone in it's current position are foolish. The way it's setup is to favor profits, that's no secret. What isn't? You want to pay less, they want to pay less, that's how it goes. If we want better healthcare then we have to work for it. Then the point others are making comes in where we have to deal with making change in the face of the "inevitable".

We need change but we don't have the "ganas" to do it.

Socialized healthcare would be great, nobody is arguing that. But our current medical system can't be compared to others and be a fair comparison. It's very different. Moore compares two different types of healthcare in the movie, socialized health care or w/e and the insurance systems we have presently.

[Priran]

You're incredibly lucky.

[Maguspk]

You're incredibly lucky.

I agree, with the current system I am exceptionally lucky.

But the people who are like, OMFG nobody should be turned away with out current system, everything should be paid for, really aren't being logical.

Of course with a nice tax we can make that a reality, but with out current system, it just won't happen. Our system favors profit making on both sides, people wanna spend less and get more medical attention. Medical companies want to spend less and spend less medical attention. It's just a bad setup :D

[MF Perm]

I've never had a run in with Healthcare not going my way so I don't think I'm biased, but I am also pretty inexperienced in what you actually "sign up for" when you agree to pay that monthly insurance fee, or when you accept that % out of your paycheck to cover healthcare or w/e.

No offense, but ignorance of the situation does not make you unbiased. It makes you uninformed.

I think the definition of "run in" I was going for was in the context of the conflicts from the movie. Of course I've been to a hospital before and my healthcare covered it in full and I never had any problems, "run in"s. I think I would be biased if I were to have had a close family member denied necessary healthcare or I myself had healthcare denied me; of course then you can say I'm biased to favor the system.

Examples, I've had to have oral surgery, paid totally by my insurance, only thing I had to pay for was a % of the laughing gas because it wasn't considered necessary but I wanted it anway. Something to the effect of a few hundred dollars for a thousands of dollars in surgery.

I went on vacation in the Bahamas, didn't wear ear plugs and came back with a bad ear infection. Medication and treatments covered in full.

I had an abcess tooth a few months ago, went to the hospital got treated/got my meds paid for in full.

I've never had a problem. Maybe I have good "insurance" maybe I am just lucky. Either way, I think people who expect the system to cater to everyone in it's current position are foolish. The way it's setup is to favor profits, that's no secret. What isn't? You want to pay less, they want to pay less, that's how it goes. If we want better healthcare then we have to work for it. Then the point others are making comes in where we have to deal with making change in the face of the "inevitable".

We need change but we don't have the "ganas" to do it.

Socialized healthcare would be great, nobody is arguing that. But our current medical system can't be compared to others and be a fair comparison. It's very different. Moore compares two different types of healthcare in the movie, socialized health care or w/e and the insurance systems we have presently.

That's the problem. That's what we're programmed to expect. We pay out of our paychecks, everything is covered. For some people and smaller issues, it usually works that way; pay a copay and you're all set. My fiancee a couple months ago sprained her ankle. We thought we were all set but they didn't cover the sports doctor visit. So $100 a month from her paycheck, $20 copay, and $700 doctor bill. Luckily they covered the $4,000ish for the ER.

I can't even understand why the cost is even that high. Normally the situation would be that supply and demand drives prices up and down, but because of policy corruption and bullshit legislation a select few companies and associations can lock prices high.

If even only half of insured Americans cancelled their benefits, and refused to pay their medical bills - the industry would succumb to us. What are they going to sue 50 million people?

Honestly it is that easy. You don't buy the product, they lose shareholder money, they can be sued and go bankrupt. A national effort 60 years ago for a war, and 40 for a protest to a war - and we can't do this?

But Magus is correct, by law those companies have to make profit for their shareholders. Is it fucked up? Yes. Is it immoral? Yes. Does it hurt and kill people? Yes. Is it legal? Yes.

Dollar bill, yall. That's where it starts, that's where it ends.

[Beckwin]

"If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people"- the old british parliament dude from the film

I liked that quote

[Ivve]

You're incredibly lucky.

I agree, with the current system I am exceptionally lucky.

But the people who are like, OMFG nobody should be turned away with out current system, everything should be paid for, really aren't being logical.

Of course with a nice tax we can make that a reality, but with out current system, it just won't happen. Our system favors profit making on both sides, people wanna spend less and get more medical attention. Medical companies want to spend less and spend less medical attention. It's just a bad setup :D

I don't think anyone's saying that nobody should be turned away with our current system. I think they're saying that our current system should change because people can be denied necessary medical attention under the current system. At least, that's how I feel and what I perceived to be the message of the movie.

[Maguspk]

You're incredibly lucky.

I agree, with the current system I am exceptionally lucky.

But the people who are like, OMFG nobody should be turned away with out current system, everything should be paid for, really aren't being logical.

Of course with a nice tax we can make that a reality, but with out current system, it just won't happen. Our system favors profit making on both sides, people wanna spend less and get more medical attention. Medical companies want to spend less and spend less medical attention. It's just a bad setup :D

I don't think anyone's saying that nobody should be turned away with our current system. I think they're saying that our current system should change because people can be denied necessary medical attention under the current system. At least, that's how I feel and what I perceived to be the message of the movie.

I only saw people getting turned away because they couldn't afford it.

The scene with the guy who threatened to get Mr. Moore to put them in the movie, without any actual plans to do so made me sick though. They were going to cover a treatment for one ear but not both. Cry a river, that's great that they're doing one ear but to be like "ahhh! she needs both to learn how to hear" is just kinda dumb.

The scene with the mother crying from being at the wrong hospital or whatever was kinda sad, and her kid died which could have/should have been prevented, but hey technicalities happen all the time, it isn't like they wanted to just let the child die but she was sitting in their lobby freakin out, inhibiting the care of others.

People getting kicked out of hospitals because they have no coverage/funds to continue staying there, that's what happens in our system, it isn't the system being corrupt, it's the system being what it is...If you don't earn the money to pay for your surgery you get no surgery. Our government doesn't pay for it sadly that's how it goes, sometimes your insurance will cover it if it's reasonable for them to do so, that's what ya pay for...

The movie is made to make you think this system is like breaking all the rules, doing all the wrong things, but really it's doing what it was made to do, what Americans allowed to come into place, and what American's are allowing to stay in place. Maybe the movie will "enlighten" some American's, even though I'd consider any Michael Moore film a poor indicator of any sort of "reality" that might exist. Perhaps it will encourage change, I doubt it, but it could happen.

[Andarvi]

You're incredibly lucky.

I agree, with the current system I am exceptionally lucky.

But the people who are like, OMFG nobody should be turned away with out current system, everything should be paid for, really aren't being logical.

Of course with a nice tax we can make that a reality, but with out current system, it just won't happen. Our system favors profit making on both sides, people wanna spend less and get more medical attention. Medical companies want to spend less and spend less medical attention. It's just a bad setup :D

I don't think anyone's saying that nobody should be turned away with our current system. I think they're saying that our current system should change because people can be denied necessary medical attention under the current system. At least, that's how I feel and what I perceived to be the message of the movie.

I only saw people getting turned away because they couldn't afford it.

The scene with the guy who threatened to get Mr. Moore to put them in the movie, without any actual plans to do so made me sick though. They were going to cover a treatment for one ear but not both. Cry a river, that's great that they're doing one ear but to be like "ahhh! she needs both to learn how to hear" is just kinda dumb.

The scene with the mother crying from being at the wrong hospital or whatever was kinda sad, and her kid died which could have/should have been prevented, but hey technicalities happen all the time, it isn't like they wanted to just let the child die but she was sitting in their lobby freakin out, inhibiting the care of others.

People getting kicked out of hospitals because they have no coverage/funds to continue staying there, that's what happens in our system, it isn't the system being corrupt, it's the system being what it is...If you don't earn the money to pay for your surgery you get no surgery. Our government doesn't pay for it sadly that's how it goes, sometimes your insurance will cover it if it's reasonable for them to do so, that's what ya pay for...

The movie is made to make you think this system is like breaking all the rules, doing all the wrong things, but really it's doing what it was made to do, what Americans allowed to come into place, and what American's are allowing to stay in place. Maybe the movie will "enlighten" some American's, even though I'd consider any Michael Moore film a poor indicator of any sort of "reality" that might exist. Perhaps it will encourage change, I doubt it, but it could happen.

Any good parent would do exactly the same thing. Technicalities are one thing, that is far beyond one.

[Ivve]

You're incredibly lucky.

I agree, with the current system I am exceptionally lucky.

But the people who are like, OMFG nobody should be turned away with out current system, everything should be paid for, really aren't being logical.

Of course with a nice tax we can make that a reality, but with out current system, it just won't happen. Our system favors profit making on both sides, people wanna spend less and get more medical attention. Medical companies want to spend less and spend less medical attention. It's just a bad setup :D

I don't think anyone's saying that nobody should be turned away with our current system. I think they're saying that our current system should change because people can be denied necessary medical attention under the current system. At least, that's how I feel and what I perceived to be the message of the movie.

I only saw people getting turned away because they couldn't afford it.

The scene with the guy who threatened to get Mr. Moore to put them in the movie, without any actual plans to do so made me sick though. They were going to cover a treatment for one ear but not both. Cry a river, that's great that they're doing one ear but to be like "ahhh! she needs both to learn how to hear" is just kinda dumb.

The scene with the mother crying from being at the wrong hospital or whatever was kinda sad, and her kid died which could have/should have been prevented, but hey technicalities happen all the time, it isn't like they wanted to just let the child die but she was sitting in their lobby freakin out, inhibiting the care of others.

People getting kicked out of hospitals because they have no coverage/funds to continue staying there, that's what happens in our system, it isn't the system being corrupt, it's the system being what it is...If you don't earn the money to pay for your surgery you get no surgery. Our government doesn't pay for it sadly that's how it goes, sometimes your insurance will cover it if it's reasonable for them to do so, that's what ya pay for...

The movie is made to make you think this system is like breaking all the rules, doing all the wrong things, but really it's doing what it was made to do, what Americans allowed to come into place, and what American's are allowing to stay in place. Maybe the movie will "enlighten" some American's, even though I'd consider any Michael Moore film a poor indicator of any sort of "reality" that might exist. Perhaps it will encourage change, I doubt it, but it could happen.

Any good parent would do exactly the same thing. Technicalities are one thing, that is far beyond one.

Yeah, I thought that hospitals were at least obligated to stabilize a person's condition before releasing them, regardless of their finances. Obviously if she was having siezures while running a very high fever like that, she wasn't fit to be transported. I can understand not receiving insurance coverage for the visit to the wrong hospital, but for a child to be allowed to die in a hospital is ludicrous.

Somehow I get the feeling that there was more to the story, though.

[Yangsing]

Saw the movie. It was ok, but I wonder how much more taxes the common French/British/Canadian etc citizens have to pay? Moore had some good points but there is always another side to the story.

Anyways, people's health shouldn't be treated like car insurance.

[Maguspk]

You're incredibly lucky.

I agree, with the current system I am exceptionally lucky.

But the people who are like, OMFG nobody should be turned away with out current system, everything should be paid for, really aren't being logical.

Of course with a nice tax we can make that a reality, but with out current system, it just won't happen. Our system favors profit making on both sides, people wanna spend less and get more medical attention. Medical companies want to spend less and spend less medical attention. It's just a bad setup :D

I don't think anyone's saying that nobody should be turned away with our current system. I think they're saying that our current system should change because people can be denied necessary medical attention under the current system. At least, that's how I feel and what I perceived to be the message of the movie.

I only saw people getting turned away because they couldn't afford it.

The scene with the guy who threatened to get Mr. Moore to put them in the movie, without any actual plans to do so made me sick though. They were going to cover a treatment for one ear but not both. Cry a river, that's great that they're doing one ear but to be like "ahhh! she needs both to learn how to hear" is just kinda dumb.

The scene with the mother crying from being at the wrong hospital or whatever was kinda sad, and her kid died which could have/should have been prevented, but hey technicalities happen all the time, it isn't like they wanted to just let the child die but she was sitting in their lobby freakin out, inhibiting the care of others.

People getting kicked out of hospitals because they have no coverage/funds to continue staying there, that's what happens in our system, it isn't the system being corrupt, it's the system being what it is...If you don't earn the money to pay for your surgery you get no surgery. Our government doesn't pay for it sadly that's how it goes, sometimes your insurance will cover it if it's reasonable for them to do so, that's what ya pay for...

The movie is made to make you think this system is like breaking all the rules, doing all the wrong things, but really it's doing what it was made to do, what Americans allowed to come into place, and what American's are allowing to stay in place. Maybe the movie will "enlighten" some American's, even though I'd consider any Michael Moore film a poor indicator of any sort of "reality" that might exist. Perhaps it will encourage change, I doubt it, but it could happen.

Any good parent would do exactly the same thing. Technicalities are one thing, that is far beyond one.

I agree it's 100% stupid, I am not trying to argue that, I am simply trying to point out the fact that the system isn't really "corrupt", it's doing what it was set up to do, we just need a better system.

Having a child die because you can't settle funding and stuff is really freakin stupid, but they can't just operate without funding in place and stuff. That's just how it goes sadly.

I will disagree that a good parent wouldn't panic like that though, a good, composed, parent might have found a way to get to that hospital who would operate sooner, instead of beating the dead horse telling them to operate and disobey the law.