Sicko

[Octavious]

An interesting point:

The military uses socialized healthcare. Every service member and their immediate family gets universal healthcare. They go to military hospitals for free. If you need to go to another hospital or place for whatever, the military will pay for it (generally, TriCare is limited to non dental/optical stuff).

So basically, you can ask a pro-privatized healthcare person: if socialized healthcare is good enough for the troops, why isn't it good enough for the rest of us? It's also worth noting that many lower-ranking enlisted men and women don't really make a whole lot of money and would likely have problems affording insurance from a private source, especially if their spouse or child has a chronic illness or some sort of medical history.

It's not good enough for the rest of 'us' because damnit I don't want to foot the bill for the portion of the USA who are lazy SOB's that don't work/have the motivation to get off their ass and work. I work damn hard for the money I earn and I get assfucked in taxes every week on my paycheck. Things like social security and medicaid/medicare begin to drive me nuts. Not that I have any problem paying them.

I am a college student, so I really don't appreciate seeing my $1,260/week become $965 after taxes for social security etc that I most likely won't see when I'm 60. Now that being said i'll move to healthcare. Have I had to have 'big' things done for $$$? Yes, actually i've got many wounds stitched up from baseball, had to have a quarter removed that I swallowed at like 4yrs old (Don't Ask, lol) because it almost suffocated me.

I don't have a problem paying for my healthcare, thats obvious yes. But I do have to pay the high cost of the big surgeries, which does suck basically put. I really don't like the idea of socialized health care, because if you break it down to 'just taxes' it gets to the point that i'm not sick 100% of the time, so why should my paycheck suffer to people that are sick? Shit, If I wanted to pay for their care I would.

Now I know that sounds extremely shallow, but I've done my share of donating to charities, I give blood, I give to my church. It's not that i'm rich by any means, by far the opposite. I'm working my ass off to stay above the national average if you want to look at it that way. In my opinion, this pushes the bigger question then just healthcare.

If I say, well shit I work for my money to pay, why can't "NAME" do it? Then you'll respond well some people aren't educated to get a job to be able to put themselves in the right position. That begs the bigger question of pushing public education and helping the unemployed, rather then socializing healthcare for the percentage below national average.

Just my thoughts, I don't approve of socialized healthcare. It would work if/only-if certain things happened in the USA, which I really don't see feasible anytime soon. We'd have to reduce the national debt and our military spending, which people are split on. Yea everyone wants an end to the war, but it won't alleviate the assfucking we take in national debt. Socialized healthcare is in about the same place as our social security, it's a failed idea in the USA unless major shit changes, which most likely won't happen in our lifetime.

[MF Perm]

You brought up my name buddy. And you did it in your oh so eloquent style as well. Completely unbiased of any anger because of your previous retardation.

I thought I'd give you a chance to atone yourself with your "As Seen On TV!" ideals and toss some ideas in the mix. Looks like your still incapable of that. Maybe try borrowing more ideals from other people and see where that gets you?

[MF Perm]

It's not good enough for the rest of 'us' because damnit I don't want to foot the bill for the portion of the USA who are lazy SOB's that don't work/have the motivation to get off their ass and work. I work damn hard for the money I earn and I get assfucked in taxes every week on my paycheck. Things like social security and medicaid/medicare begin to drive me nuts. Not that I have any problem paying them.

I am a college student, so I really don't appreciate seeing my $1,260/week become $965 after taxes for social security etc that I most likely won't see when I'm 60. Now that being said i'll move to healthcare. Have I had to have 'big' things done for $$$? Yes, actually i've got many wounds stitched up from baseball, had to have a quarter removed that I swallowed at like 4yrs old (Don't Ask, lol) because it almost suffocated me.

I don't have a problem paying for my healthcare, thats obvious yes. But I do have to pay the high cost of the big surgeries, which does suck basically put. I really don't like the idea of socialized health care, because if you break it down to 'just taxes' it gets to the point that i'm not sick 100% of the time, so why should my paycheck suffer to people that are sick? Shit, If I wanted to pay for their care I would.

Now I know that sounds extremely shallow, but I've done my share of donating to charities, I give blood, I give to my church. It's not that i'm rich by any means, by far the opposite. I'm working my ass off to stay above the national average if you want to look at it that way. In my opinion, this pushes the bigger question then just healthcare.

If I say, well shit I work for my money to pay, why can't "NAME" do it? Then you'll respond well some people aren't educated to get a job to be able to put themselves in the right position. That begs the bigger question of pushing public education and helping the unemployed, rather then socializing healthcare for the percentage below national average.

Just my thoughts, I don't approve of socialized healthcare. It would work if/only-if certain things happened in the USA, which I really don't see feasible anytime soon. We'd have to reduce the national debt and our military spending, which people are split on. Yea everyone wants an end to the war, but it won't alleviate the assfucking we take in national debt. Socialized healthcare is in about the same place as our social security, it's a failed idea in the USA unless major shit changes, which most likely won't happen in our lifetime.

The irony is that, with socialized healthcare, there is no need for Medicare / Medicaid. you saved money right there. There is also no money deducted for insurance - money saved again. When it comes down it, Octavious, you'll spend less in taxes for everyone to be covered, than you do now for yourself and the poor / elderly to be covered.

Imagine that.

[Octavious]

It's one of those things I know I 'should' support, or find ways to improve upon it because it'll make the world a better place. I just feel it's too idealistic for the current state of the world, in all it's bullshit-able glory.

This isn't really on topic, but it's kind of the same issue. As a Catholic (Ugh, I know Religion), I know I 'should' be against the death penalty, etc. But I also find it very hard to say I wouldn't wish death on someone for killing my family.

Oh, and before you crucify me, just because I'm catholic does not mean I follow the catichism to the 't'. In things like abortion/same-sex marrige, I disagree. As well as some other topics, however I am Catholic for more then just abortion/same-sex marrige, which is why I've stayed Catholic, please don't hate me Perm ; ;

[Gregorio]

You brought up my name buddy. And you did it in your oh so eloquent style as well. Completely unbiased of any anger because of your previous retardation.

I thought I'd give you a chance to atone yourself with your "As Seen On TV!" ideals and toss some ideas in the mix. Looks like your still incapable of that. Maybe try borrowing more ideals from other people and see where that gets you?

Thanks for the chance, I didn't realize that all your ideals were 100% original. Nobody influenced your feelings and ideas, no no no.

And I don't need to atone myself to you because I don't really care about what you think of me. Oh and because you were the one who was off the hook insane in the last thread.

I considered posting in this thread but I coudln't find a source for my claim that 46 children die EVERY SECOND in countries with socialized health care. Now if it were you, you would have just posted this statistic regardless. But I guess thats where you and I differ.

Now drop it and let this thread get back on topic. You had the first word (unprovoked...again), so let it go.

[MF Perm]

It's one of those things I know I 'should' support, or find ways to improve upon it because it'll make the world a better place. I just feel it's too idealistic for the current state of the world, in all it's bullshit-able glory.

This isn't really on topic, but it's kind of the same issue. As a Catholic (Ugh, I know Religion), I know I 'should' be against the death penalty, etc. But I also find it very hard to say I wouldn't wish death on someone for killing my family.

Oh, and before you crucify me, just because I'm catholic does not mean I follow the catichism to the 't'. In things like abortion/same-sex marrige, I disagree. As well as some other topics, however I am Catholic for more then just abortion/same-sex marrige, which is why I've stayed Catholic, please don't hate me Perm ; ;

lol nah man, I don't hate or despise religious people. My position is just that your business is your business, and not everyone elses. I was raised Irish Catholic, which in my experience surprisingly was a pretty socially liberal community as far as my family went for the most part.

I certainly have my position on religion itself, but I don't project that onto the people who believe in it. As long as they don't try to force their views on others or condemn them for not being similiar it's ok with me.

But honestly that just confuses me about your position even further, being a Catholic, I would expect you to appreciate the gift of charity, compassion, and community since that is what is tought about your Savior, right?

[MF Perm]

You brought up my name buddy. And you did it in your oh so eloquent style as well. Completely unbiased of any anger because of your previous retardation.

I thought I'd give you a chance to atone yourself with your "As Seen On TV!" ideals and toss some ideas in the mix. Looks like your still incapable of that. Maybe try borrowing more ideals from other people and see where that gets you?

Thanks for the chance, I didn't realize that all your ideals were 100% original. Nobody influenced your feelings and ideas, no no no.

And I don't need to atone myself to you because I don't really care about what you think of me. Oh and because you were the one who was off the hook insane in the last thread.

I considered posting in this thread but I coudln't find a source for my claim that 46 children die EVERY SECOND in countries with socialized health care. Now if it were you, you would have just posted this statistic regardless. But I guess thats where you and I differ.

Now drop it and let this thread get back on topic. You had the first word (unprovoked...again), so let it go.

It's not a matter of being original, it's a matter of taking a label and attributing one ideal to it - and then trying to run an entire argument based on one simple, unsupported fraction of an entire line of thinking.

Where we differ is I'm already informed of my position, I state my position and when questioned I back it up. You find that unbelievable that I have the audacity to find something solid to back up my claims when pressed, while instead you will go back and take one word or line out of a previous post to try and distort the argument. My bad for relying on facts.

Hey, maybe the reason you can't find anything saying is because it's a lie? But hey that's your territory so you might as well run with it. Like they say in drill training; when you're wrong, stay wrong. That way you at least give the illusion of knowing what your doing to other people watching.


But anyways after all, excuse me for being genuinely curious to another idea someone might have regarding this issue. I figured calling you out again and giving you an opportunity to use the word "libertarian" again maybe you'd put some perspective on the topic at hand and contribute to the discussion instead of again amazing us by blindsiding us with more victim speeches and crying. That's no your usual MO, is it?

[Octavious]

heh, As I've said though. I know I 'should' believe that, and I try my hardest to be what you'd call an example of christ to people. I don't have a problem helping people out, I just have a sticking point with soclizaed healthcare for some reason. It just doesn't rub me the right way for some wierd reason.

I will/do treat people as best I can till they give me reason to think otherwise. Also, if someone genuinly asks for help I'm more then willing to help them. I struggle with my beliefs from faith and my beliefs from my real world experiences.

I lived over in italy last year for a month. Through Europe you see so much extreme poverty, people in the streets daily begging for 1-2 Euro to just be able to eat, and yes some are there to scam you too. It shocked me as living in Ohio I'd seen poverty...but in the form of maybe one random guy every month on the street downtown where I work.

Not like there...it was even worse when I gave this woman 5 Euro, when she asked me for money so her & her daughter could eat. Someone looked at me in my group and said "You know she's probably scamming you" and I was like...you know... I don't care if she is or isn't, because I'd hate to ignore the one person who isn't scamming, and actually needs the money.

However, as I mentioned I do feel socialized healthcare isn't really a 'main' issue. We should try to figure out why these families who need the help can't afford it. Is it public education? Is it that the government not doing enough to push education on all ages? I just feel another solution to health care isn't nessecarily socializing it as much as lets help people help themselves. Strike the root of the problem more then fixing the symptoms.

And you would also be surprised how many people now that i'm in college shelve you into the streotype of a crazy radical catholic who hates abortion and feels homosexuals need to burn. Thats why I said don't kill me, lol, I've never had people go "Omg, your catholic?" Till i hit college, lol.

[Gregorio]

[quote=MF Perm]

You brought up my name buddy. And you did it in your oh so eloquent style as well. Completely unbiased of any anger because of your previous retardation.

I thought I'd give you a chance to atone yourself with your "As Seen On TV!" ideals and toss some ideas in the mix. Looks like your still incapable of that. Maybe try borrowing more ideals from other people and see where that gets you?

Thanks for the chance, I didn't realize that all your ideals were 100% original. Nobody influenced your feelings and ideas, no no no.

And I don't need to atone myself to you because I don't really care about what you think of me. Oh and because you were the one who was off the hook insane in the last thread.

I considered posting in this thread but I coudln't find a source for my claim that 46 children die EVERY SECOND in countries with socialized health care. Now if it were you, you would have just posted this statistic regardless. But I guess thats where you and I differ.

Now drop it and let this thread get back on topic. You had the first word (unprovoked...again), so let it go.

It's not a matter of being original, it's a matter of taking a label and attributing one ideal to it - and then trying to run an entire argument based on one simple, unsupported fraction of an entire line of thinking.

Where we differ is I'm already informed of my position, I state my position and when questioned I back it up. You find that unbelievable that I have the audacity to find something solid to back up my claims when pressed, while instead you will go back and take one word or line out of a previous post to try and distort the argument. My bad for relying on facts.

Hey, maybe the reason you can't find anything saying is because it's a lie? But hey that's your territory so you might as well run with it. Like they say in drill training; when you're wrong, stay wrong. That way you at least give the illusion of knowing what your doing to other people watching.


But anyways after all, excuse me for being genuinely curious to another idea someone might have regarding this issue. I figured calling you out again and giving you an opportunity to use the word "libertarian" again maybe you'd put some perspective on the topic at hand and contribute to the discussion instead of again amazing us by blindsiding us with more victim speeches and crying. That's no your usual MO, is it?[/quote:48a3f]


Blah blah blah...more crying and accusations of lieing (which I'm STILL waiting for proof of)...bringing up the "singling out one word" thing which i apologized for...wah wah wah....OH WAIT: "I have the audacity to find something solid to back up my claims when pressed"

LOL SOLID. 3/4 of your "sources" you posted in that thread were either flat out wrong, or you didn't even bother to read! Ahahaha you are a comic genius. Seriously, you should write for SNL or something.

And yes you're genuinely curious...enough go out of your way to insult me before I even entered the thread, and to completely pretend I offered no explination to my feelings in the other thread.

[Octavious]

If your really trying to be the bigger person Greg, one would think you'd stop making yourself look foolish by arguing. If you're being the bigger person, then do it and end it, thanks. ^^

[MF Perm]

heh, As I've said though. I know I 'should' believe that, and I try my hardest to be what you'd call an example of christ to people. I don't have a problem helping people out, I just have a sticking point with soclizaed healthcare for some reason. It just doesn't rub me the right way for some wierd reason.

I will/do treat people as best I can till they give me reason to think otherwise. Also, if someone genuinly asks for help I'm more then willing to help them. I struggle with my beliefs from faith and my beliefs from my real world experiences.

I lived over in italy last year for a month. Through Europe you see so much extreme poverty, people in the streets daily begging for 1-2 Euro to just be able to eat, and yes some are there to scam you too. It shocked me as living in Ohio I'd seen poverty...but in the form of maybe one random guy every month on the street downtown where I work.

Not like there...it was even worse when I gave this woman 5 Euro, when she asked me for money so her & her daughter could eat. Someone looked at me in my group and said "You know she's probably scamming you" and I was like...you know... I don't care if she is or isn't, because I'd hate to ignore the one person who isn't scamming, and actually needs the money.

However, as I mentioned I do feel socialized healthcare isn't really a 'main' issue. We should try to figure out why these families who need the help can't afford it. Is it public education? Is it that the government not doing enough to push education on all ages? I just feel another solution to health care isn't nessecarily socializing it as much as lets help people help themselves. Strike the root of the problem more then fixing the symptoms.

And you would also be surprised how many people now that i'm in college shelve you into the streotype of a crazy radical catholic who hates abortion and feels homosexuals need to burn. Thats why I said don't kill me, lol, I've never had people go "Omg, your catholic?" Till i hit college, lol.

That's funny because it's usually the protestants - evangelists for example - that are the most vocal. I know the Catholic church has spoken out against abortion and homosexuality, but I never really had met or been in an experience where it was parishoners protesting or being vocal and what-not.

Catholics have always been the more reserved ones from my experience.


Anyways, moving on, no matter what society we live in there is going to be a wage heirarchy and a class heirarchy. There will always be people that need to do the shit jobs for less money, it's a fact of life and economics. Someone is going to make less money working for someone who makes more. This is how 1% of the worlds population controls 80% of its money.

Just like he points out in the movie, we have social firefighters, social policing, social military, social education - the same argument against social medicine could be replaced for one of these easily. But these are such accepted staples of society that they are never, ever questioned.

So it's not to place on any institution or lack of education on anyones part, per se, it's just a fact of society that there will be poor and there will be rich. Communism tried to achieve this but, there was too much power in the state and it easily corrupted officials. There's a delicate balance between a republic democracy and a social democracy that can exist. People try to claim it can't because it's an oxymoron and it's opposites but - if the people are voting for social institutions, then isn't democracy at work? Especially if down the road they are determined not to work and can be abolished.

[Gregorio]

If your really trying to be the bigger person Greg, one would think you'd stop making yourself look foolish by arguing. If you're being the bigger person, then do it and end it, thanks. ^^

Sorry, but there's a difference between being the bigger person, and being an easy target. I'm not going to let someone take a dig at me for no reason and let them get away with it because it encourages the behavior.

[Ivve]

It's not good enough for the rest of 'us' because damnit I don't want to foot the bill for the portion of the USA who are lazy SOB's that don't work/have the motivation to get off their ass and work.

I don't mean this to be offensive, but this is a really ignorant statement to make. Yes, there is a small percent of the population that has no legitimate reason to be out of work and just abuses the system. However, that's not the majority of people. I've spent a lot of time working with homeless people in the Memphis area, and the majority of them suffer from some sort of untreated mental illness. Schizophrenia, PTSD, and other debilitating mental disorders keep them from getting and maintaining decent-paying, safe jobs. If you saw the way that some of these people live, and then understood why they live that way, you might be a little more sympathetic. There will always be people who abuse welfare and such, but there are people in this country who genuinely cannot take care of themselves and need help.

There are also people who are employed, but simply do not have coverage from their jobs. Many college students I know work rinky-dink jobs waiting tables or answering phones and have no coverage at all while they work toward a degree. If one of them were to be severely injured through no fault of their own, but have no medical coverage, then they may never be able to finish obtaining their degree due to debt, and may never fully recover from an accident due to being unable to afford comprehensive treatment. Things like that have happened, and not just to people I know.

Do you end up supporting sick drug addicts and child molestors and lazy assholes? Sometimes, yes. There's no way to get around it. Do you refuse to pay the taxes that fix potholes too, on the grounds that sometimes people who sponge off the government will drive down that road and receive the benefit of it? It just doesn't seem right to me to opt out of helping people who really need help just because there are some people who are willing to take advantage of it.

[Octavious]

If your really trying to be the bigger person Greg, one would think you'd stop making yourself look foolish by arguing. If you're being the bigger person, then do it and end it, thanks. ^^

Sorry, but there's a difference between being the bigger person, and being an easy target. I'm not going to let someone take a dig at me for no reason and let them get away with it because it encourages the behavior.

True, but you look like less the ass if you stop the childish rebuttle.

Many college students I know work rinky-dink jobs waiting tables or answering phones and have no coverage at all while they work toward a degree.

Yea, I've been there. I waited tables and worked a hard ass job as a baker for a year before I got my internships. I know all too well how much $7.50/hr blows as a food-service employee. Talk about working 60hrs a week and barely makign rent/food/books. Let alone having time to actually go out maybe, or keep yourself in good health for that matter.

you refuse to pay the taxes that fix potholes too, on the grounds that sometimes people who sponge off the government will drive down that road and receive the benefit of it? It just doesn't seem right to me to opt out of helping people who really need help just because there are some people who are willing to take advantage of it.

It's not good enough for the rest of 'us' because damnit I don't want to foot the bill for the portion of the USA who are lazy SOB's that don't work/have the motivation to get off their ass and work.

I don't mean this to be offensive, but this is a really ignorant statement to make. Yes, there is a small percent of the population that has no legitimate reason to be out of work and just abuses the system. However, that's not the majority of people. I've spent a lot of time working with homeless people in the Memphis area, and the majority of them suffer from some sort of untreated mental illness. Schizophrenia, PTSD, and other debilitating mental disorders keep them from getting and maintaining decent-paying, safe jobs. If you saw the way that some of these people live, and then understood why they live that way, you might be a little more sympathetic. There will always be people who abuse welfare and such, but there are people in this country who genuinely cannot take care of themselves and need help.

There are also people who are employed, but simply do not have coverage from their jobs. Many college students I know work rinky-dink jobs waiting tables or answering phones and have no coverage at all while they work toward a degree. If one of them were to be severely injured through no fault of their own, but have no medical coverage, then they may never be able to finish obtaining their degree due to debt, and may never fully recover from an accident due to being unable to afford comprehensive treatment. Things like that have happened, and not just to people I know.

Do you end up supporting sick drug addicts and child molestors and lazy assholes? Sometimes, yes. There's no way to get around it. Do you refuse to pay the taxes that fix potholes too, on the grounds that sometimes people who sponge off the government will drive down that road and receive the benefit of it? It just doesn't seem right to me to opt out of helping people who really need help just because there are some people who are willing to take advantage of it.

I think your examples, while painfully exaggerated, do have a similar idea. My main issue really isn't my federal/state taxes, I don't mind keeping roads drivable/parks clean etc, that is fine. I don't like Social Security/Medicaid/Medicare $, when I won't use it nor see Social Security in my lifetime.

[quote"MF Perm"]There's a delicate balance between a republic democracy and a social democracy that can exist.[/quote]

I'll agree with this, although i don't see these things being creed till we're long gone most likely, it will take generations of this thought to actually change the current state of the government to these beliefs, sad but true. =/

[Keno]

Just finished watching it..... brb, moving somewhere else; don't really care where.

[Artful Dodger]

[quote=MF Perm]

Setting up more taxes so that we can have national healthcare would be freakin awesome

no thx

And that's about the extent of any argument against "raising taxes" from the opposition; short, abbreviated, and lacking any information, education, or insight.[/quote:a3554]
yes i lack insight because we all know how fiscally responsible our government is

[archibaldcrane]

Remember, this isn't just about rich vs. poor. There are just some industries where it is really hard, no matter where you are at, to get adequate health insurance. The production assistant making $500/wk or the supervising editor making $3000/wk are in the same boat in my industry. They can't get health insurance through their jobs because they are changing every few months, and private pay insurance is a sick joke. Both people are working their 60+ hours a week, they aren't lazy, they are busting their asses. The supervising editor might be able to pay the ridiculous premiums for decent private-pay health insurance, bu the production assistant is just fucked.

Changing topics, it's one thing to argue that adults should be able to make their own choices when it comes to health care, lack thereof, etc., but the fact that the United States doesn't have comprehensive, socialized medicine for children is sick. Growing up in Compton or the Hamptons, kids should be taken care of. They can't make the choices that adults can make, and they shouldn't be subject to the same capitalist mercy as adults. Like education, we have a responsibility as a nation to provide good health care for all children.

[miokomioko]

I don't want to watch this because I bet I'll be tempted to just not come home from France next week.

[Correction]

Just like he points out in the movie, we have social firefighters, social policing, social military, social education - the same argument against social medicine could be replaced for one of these easily. But these are such accepted staples of society that they are never, ever questioned.

They haven't been questioned probably because the cost of maintaining each of them hasn't grown at the same rate as the cost of socialized medicine. I'm pretty sure it costs more to keep a senior citizen on 6 different drugs and monthly doctor visits alive for a year than it takes to school a child through all of secondary school. Plus once that student graduates they start putting some of that state-funded money back into the system. Not the case with the 75 year old turning 76 and needing another prescription drug.

I'm just not convinced the 'we have social XXX why not socialize YYY?' argument holds a lot of water, economically.

[miokomioko]

I hate old people. Can we just start letting them die naturally, and allocate all the funds and research from keeping old people alive into keeping young people healthy? Won't that, in turn, make people live longer anyways? I'm a genius!