What...the...fuck (female circumcision)

[Priran]

That's fine theorycraft, but a body part and a person are not the same.

Which is neither here nor there, because that part is talking specifically about circumcision at birth, and makes specific mention of circumcision of older men later on.

[Correction]

OH GOD THOSE POOR CIRCUMCISED MEN, I'M SURE THEY'RE TRAUMATIZED TO THE POINT THAT THEY DON'T ENJOY SEX OR REPRODUCE AT ALL, What, circumcised women? Why would I even remotely atay on topic?

Seriously, stop feeding the goddamn troll.

[Kuya]

This thread is a keeper.

[Yeargdribble]

If I ever get to have boys they're probably getting cut he has yet to sway me to change that idea.

And people have yet to sway the opinions of Egyptians about cutting the clits off of their women. Does that make it right that they stubbornly refuse to break with tradition and see what harm it actually does? Do a little research before you force something upon your children that can never be taken back simply because you refused look into it.

[Oxyminus]

I'm cut, and the ladies love it. that is all

[Xajii]

Seriously priran, is this an ego thing? Just because you're uncircumcised you need to find a point of superiority so you claim that all cut men grieve their loss? I don't and never have honestly cared that I lack foreskin, mostly because I never knew what it was like to have it. It's like saying people from the 1600s grieve their lack of a television.

[Ksandra]

If I ever get to have boys they're probably getting cut he has yet to sway me to change that idea.

And people have yet to sway the opinions of Egyptians about cutting the clits off of their women. Does that make it right that they stubbornly refuse to break with tradition and see what harm it actually does? Do a little research before you force something upon your children that can never be taken back simply because you refused look into it.

You assume that the reason I'm for it because I haven't looked into it.

Remember you can basically make a study for ANYTHING. That's why eggs were good then bad then good then bad for you etc.

I take everything I read with a grain of salt.

His links to sites that definitely sound biased and are pushing one way of thinking. It doesn't mean I have to automatically assume they're 100% correct.


Keep inmind too I'm not, nor have any plans do to anytime soon, prego, my decision has not been set instone, but Pirian has in no way swayed my current opinion on it.

No where does it say you have to listen and believe idiots who swear and call people stupid just because you have a different opinion on something.

[Maguspk]

Seriously priran, is this an ego thing? Just because you're uncircumcised you need to find a point of superiority so you claim that all cut men grieve their loss? I don't and never have honestly cared that I lack foreskin, mostly because I never knew what it was like to have it. It's like saying people from the 1600s grieve their lack of a television.

That isn't nor has it ever been his argument or the intention behind his argument. Did you even read the thread?

[Priran]

This thread is a lol that keeps on loling.

I'm done trying to argue with people this thick. No one arguing against me has actually countered anything I said with actual scientific proof, but I've somehow been able to back up everything I said. Reading between the lines and dubious, subjective, original research are not real evidence, sorry, it doesn't work like that.

I'm done posting here, but feel free to continue:

*Bumping this up after hours of inactivity
*Thinking you can discredit scientific evidence with the heart of the cards
*Proving the whole "first stage of grief is denial of loss" thing

[Xajii]

Seriously priran, is this an ego thing? Just because you're uncircumcised you need to find a point of superiority so you claim that all cut men grieve their loss? I don't and never have honestly cared that I lack foreskin, mostly because I never knew what it was like to have it. It's like saying people from the 1600s grieve their lack of a television.

That isn't nor has it ever been his argument or the intention behind his argument. Did you even read the thread?

I'm not talking about his argument, he used it as cited "proof" in his post and therefore believes what it says, and I'm saying that's not a true statement.

[Deejay]

Just read the whole thread, and I agree with Priran, lol.

As someone who is not circumsized, circumcision does not affect you, and yet you still care. How does that make any sense?

Thats wrong, I'm not circumcised, and i've been researching the idea of getting a circumcision just to feel normal. As shallow as it may sound, it's hard to whip my dick out on a first date solely because it doest look like the "average" penis. So i feel its safe to say that circumcision does affect me.

Mindless drivel

I haven't been with a million girls, but the ones that I have been with always take a second glance when going to suckle on my joy-toy. Why? because in America it's different. Not many people know wtf an uncut dick even looks like, muchless know whether or not it is actually "better" than a circumcized penis. If it were the norm in America for men to always keep their foreskin, you would most-likely think ill of the idea of someone actually cutting it off at birth.

In short, ignorance is bliss.

[Ivve]

Just read the whole thread, and I agree with Priran, lol.

As someone who is not circumsized, circumcision does not affect you, and yet you still care. How does that make any sense?

Thats wrong, I'm not circumcised, and i've been researching the idea of getting a circumcision just to feel normal. As shallow as it may sound, it's hard to whip my dick out on a first date solely because it doest look like the "average" penis. So i feel its safe to say that circumcision does affect me.

Mindless drivel

I haven't been with a million girls, but the ones that I have been with always take a second glance when going to suckle on my joy-toy. Why? because in America it's different. Not many people know wtf an uncut dick even looks like, muchless know whether or not it is actually "better" than a circumcized penis. If it were the norm in America for men to always keep their foreskin, you would most-likely think ill of the idea of someone actually cutting it off at birth.

In short, ignorance is bliss.

If you're hooking up with women who are so ignorant that they don't know what foreskin is or they are afraid of it, then you need to either educate them or hook up with different women. That's just crazy. I've actually known a couple of uncircumcized men who felt the same way -- sought a circumcision simply to feel "normal" and adhere to the aesthetic standards of an ignorant population. I discouraged both of them, and provided information about the dangers/disadvantages. Never, never alter your body surgically and permenantly just to "fit in." That's just as crazy as a person who doesn't know that men are born with foreskin.

[Deejay]

If you're hooking up with women who are so ignorant that they don't know what foreskin is or they are afraid of it, then you need to either educate them or hook up with different women. That's just crazy. I've actually known a couple of uncircumcized men who felt the same way -- sought a circumcision simply to feel "normal" and adhere to the aesthetic standards of an ignorant population. I discouraged both of them, and provided information about the dangers/disadvantages. Never, never alter your body surgically and permenantly just to "fit in." That's just as crazy as a person who doesn't know that men are born with foreskin.

You know... all my life i've been afraid to just stick it out in front of a girl who i've only just met solely because I dont know how they'd react. What i'm wondering is, do girls in general dislike uncut penises to the point where they wouldnt orally stimulate a guy because of it? I've never really messed around with a girl who wasn't somewhat emotionally attracted to me. I dont really know what its like to just "hook-up". Simply because im too big of a pansy to show it and have the girl be turned off.

I've had this conversation many times with women, but they've all been good friends or ex's. I'm afraid that they were just telling me that its "ok" because they didnt want to hurt my feelings... Am I just being weird?

[Oxyminus]

I never realized circumcision is that popular here. I'm cut, but I'm also jewish, and its a religious custom so i more or less take it for granted. so i've always naively associated it as being a jewish thing, while i guess a lot of people do it to their kids for health reasons.

[Ivve]

If you're hooking up with women who are so ignorant that they don't know what foreskin is or they are afraid of it, then you need to either educate them or hook up with different women. That's just crazy. I've actually known a couple of uncircumcized men who felt the same way -- sought a circumcision simply to feel "normal" and adhere to the aesthetic standards of an ignorant population. I discouraged both of them, and provided information about the dangers/disadvantages. Never, never alter your body surgically and permenantly just to "fit in." That's just as crazy as a person who doesn't know that men are born with foreskin.

You know... all my life i've been afraid to just stick it out in front of a girl who i've only just met solely because I dont know how they'd react. What i'm wondering is, do girls in general dislike uncut penises to the point where they wouldnt orally stimulate a guy because of it? I've never really messed around with a girl who wasn't somewhat emotionally attracted to me. I dont really know what its like to just "hook-up". Simply because im too big of a pansy to show it and have the girl be turned off.

I've had this conversation many times with women, but they've all been good friends or ex's. I'm afraid that they were just telling me that its "ok" because they didnt want to hurt my feelings... Am I just being weird?

This is kind of a difficult question to answer, just because everyone is different. This is a topic that is often best approached in the same manner you'd tell someone about a fetish. I don't mean to imply that having foreskin is strange, fetishistic, etc, just that it is more uncommon here in America, and relatively fewer women have experience with it. It's generally much better to have a conversation before ever having sex of any kind and just being honest. Relate that you are uncircumcized, that it is something you've been insecure about because of reactions in the past, and then if necessary explain that it's not something that is dirty or disgusting since you are a normal member of society who showers and washes themselves. A lot of women just react with surprise or wariness because they have no experience with it, and it's pretty common to be told that foreskin is gross/disgusting/chock-full of smegma.

That is how the topic has been broached with me in the past. If it's someone that you care about and who cares about you, then it shouldn't be a problem. If you can't have an honest discussion about sex with the person you're seeing, then you probably shouldn't be having sex with them. If they still react poorly, then I don't know what to tell you. Fuck her! She wants you to cut off a piece of your dick so it looks nicer to her? Does that sound like a rational thing to think or say after getting all the facts?

[Ashira]

Ok.
One thing that may possibly help here is if we call this what it is. Well, besides the very apt genital mutilation.

This is not a circumcision. The word itself implies an "around cutting." There isn't much to cut... around in female anatomy. Nothing really has circumference, unless we're going to start measuring openings. ;P

This is a CLITORECTOMY. It's abhorrent, and it's done simply because of this social idea of not allowing a woman to enjoy sex because obviously she cannot be trusted to be faithful otherwise.

I recall things in Biblical history (I seem to recall the rape of Dinah and whatnot as a story supporting this, where her brothers insist all the Gentiles of Shechem(?)'s village get circumcised... well, before murdering them all) actually state that that was a main cause for male circumcision as well. So that the woman would not get as much pleasure out of sexual intercourse, since apparently the foreskin and whatnot inside increases sensation, blah blah, and the woman will want it more. God forbid we be sexual creatures. God forbid we be able to be trusted to be mindful of ourselves and faithful.

Patriarchal societies for the win. As if those men had any clue what would actually make a difference in sex, and I'm not so sure foreskin vs no foreskin is it.

Circumcision may also be barbaric in its nature as well, but to belittle the mutilation of female genitalia and try to claim that the loss of sensation on the male's part would be at all akin to what a female would lose only proves how little you know of female anatomy. Obviously all women are different, but orgasms via regular intercourse (think of the Orthodox Judaic sect, having sex through a hole in a sheet (I think I attributed that properly, any of the Jewish faith please correct me if need be)) are pretty rare. Not impossible, not even for women who usually need a lot of clitoral stimulation, but hardly the norm.

The propagation of a species was never dependent on the woman having an orgasm. Didn't matter if she came that fast, as long as he did before everyone had to get up and run from the big tiger. Because of that fact, women's sexuality has always been minimized and hit a damn near non-existent level in some not too distant centuries. Even in more recent societies, look at Japan and the differentiation between wife and geisha. Look at the modern American WASP clichés of the rich bitch ice queen wife and her scotch and the philandering husband who just doesn't even try anymore.

Is it a faddish social cause? Arguably, they all have their heyday. It doesn't make it any less barbaric, nor does that imply that physiology here is in anyway wrong. Even taking away the physicality of it, I am not sure I would ever enjoy being touched between the legs with anything if someone had at some point in my memorable past taken a knife and hot poker to it in any way, shape, or form.

But the arguments, on either side, are ignoring the fact that this is indeed more of patriarchal society woes. Keep the woman down. Eve ate the apple, therefore all women must be evil. Nevermind the whole spiel about Biblical translations on that one. Or the fact that in all truth, only in a matriarchal society could bloodlines be properly traced (going back to royalty here). Was kinda hard to fake who the mother of a child was.

[joft]

Oh man, Priran sure did a good job beating us all with his scientific evidence and air-tight arguments.

We can only hope he'll now go set the World Medical Association straight.

Female genital mutilation (FGM) is a common practice in over thirty countries

The extent of a primary circumcision may vary: from an incision in the foreskin of the clitoris up to a pharaonic circumcision or infibulation removing the clitoris and labia minora and stitching up the labia majora so that only a minimal opening remains to allow for urine and menstrual blood.

Regardless of the extent of the circumcision, FGM affects the health of women and girls. Research evidence shows the grave permanent damage to health. Acute complications of FGM are: hemorrhage, infections, bleeding of adjacent organs, and excruciating pain. Long-term complications include severe scarring, chronic infections, urologic and obstetric complications, and psychological and social problems. FGM has serious consequences for sexuality and how it is experienced. There is a multiplicity of complications during childbirth including expulsion disturbances, formation of fistulae, ruptures and incontinence.

Even with the least drastic version of circumcision, complications and functional consequences can occur, including the loss of all capacity for orgasm.

Deejay:

I've seen many women say they prefer uncircumcised men, even for oral sex. Several sentiments are often reiterated: some women think it's fun to have "more to play with", or that the extra sensitivity of uncircumcised guys makes them more responsive which makes it easier to please them (and some women say it enhances their feeling of power while giving oral sex), and some say they just prefer the look.

This shouldn't be hard to believe; a few pages back I linked to an article about tribes in the Sudan that remove the front teeth of all of their children and believe that toothlessness is attractive. You don't think toothlessness is attractive though, do you? So it shouldn't be hard for you to believe that many women don't think circumcised penises are more attractive.

You definitely should be careful to not be overly self-conscious or ashamed, that completely ruins the mood-- it's a self-fulfilling negative expectation. There are tons of people/sites on the net that say women like confidence, and that's true, but it's also an understatement. Everybody likes confidence, imagine dating a girl who's ashamed about some aspect of her body and obsesses over it and assumes you think it's ugly or nasty.

There are actually many women who are hung up about receiving oral sex because they think vaginas are yucky... Now imagine if a guy convinces a girl like that to let him try going down on her, and then she just lies there like a dead fish, too horrified about being examined to let herself loose and have pleasure. The guy's gonna feel like a jackass after trying and trying and getting no response.

Confidence is key, but it's not about being an asshole, it's just about being comfortable in your own skin-- pun intended.

[Deejay]

Deejay:...

Wow lol, I never looked at things that way. What's funny is that I was reading a lot of studies/personal blogs about men who have opted to receive circumcisions as adults, and I was seriously leaning toward getting it done when I turn 21. (i'm almost 19 now) After reading what Ivve and Joft had to say, i'm starting to think that maybe it isn't such a good idea. You guys are right, I need to learn to be comfortable in my own skin before I even think about making a serious decision like that.

Thanks guys, never thought I would have gotten such good responses...

I mean that too, thanks a lot.